On the horizon: Ability Trees, Class Specializations, and Guilds

[Dorn]

All very interesting to read. I am so torn on choices.

On one hand, Gudleifr's axe. On the other, Tower Shield.

[Squeak]

Simply ability point investment? Might I ask what that's supposed to mean?

My wild guess is that it's like this thing you can choose to spend an ability point on, no getting back, no unlearn and permanent loss of one max slot for abilities, as a tradeoff of free attribute buffs.

From the way it sounds, if you want a primary attribute, you'd have to spend one of your very limited ability points. You can only learn one, of course, and there's no telling whether it is something that can be unlearned at a later point.

[Talyn]

I have a question, and I know that old Clok and what the game might be different, however, are all guilds going to have prerequisites on 'classes'? or will they be open to join? I just know that in the past some people found the Wyrvardn 'boring' cause they were the knights in shiny armour but that's not the case. Protecting people can vary on how you want to do it. Like there was a certain Wyrvardn NPC that used light armour with a musket. (Not sure if that has changed in Lore or not seeing as she doesn't give tasks anymore), which would be cool to see duelist in the Wyrvardns and all that. Talyn has a new thought on what he wants to do with his organization but I'm curious and excited to see what you have planned.

[Squeak]

All responses and elaboration appreciated, as always, I say.

I normally am not this guy, but I'm admittedly just excited. So, I have to ask.

Any rough idea on a timeline for when we might see general/specialized ability implementation? I'm not talking like-- a specific deadline by any means. But. Hypothetically, given no crazy breakdowns. A couple days? A cople weeks? A couple months? I just want to temper my expectations appropriately!

Thanks again for all of the explanation and setting of expectations.

Instead of how long, because that is a difficult thing to estimate and even worse to live up to that expectation, could we instead have an idea of how far along this overhaul has come already? A vague percentage is completely understandable, but gives us an idea without tying anyone to a date. We're all chomping at the bit in excitement, but we know it's a massive undertaking. A little tidbit would go a long way. Pretty please?

[verel]

All responses and elaboration appreciated, as always, I say.

I normally am not this guy, but I'm admittedly just excited. So, I have to ask.

Any rough idea on a timeline for when we might see general/specialized ability implementation? I'm not talking like-- a specific deadline by any means. But. Hypothetically, given no crazy breakdowns. A couple days? A cople weeks? A couple months? I just want to temper my expectations appropriately!

Thanks again for all of the explanation and setting of expectations.

Instead of how long, because that is a difficult thing to estimate and even worse to live up to that expectation, could we instead have an idea of how far along this overhaul has come already? A vague percentage is completely understandable, but gives us an idea without tying anyone to a date. We're all chomping at the bit in excitement, but we know it's a massive undertaking. A little tidbit would go a long way. Pretty please?

I'm guessing if Rias is announcing these changes, I'd give it a good 75% or so. Doesn't seem like the type to announce something at 30 or less percent completion but also my estimate is being pretty conservative so for all we know, it could be 95% or more. I'm curious myself.

[artus]

I don't know how classes are set up yet, if it's a thing you just type class classname to select like cogg or whatnot. If it's set up that way then I wonder about something, if you don't mind that is.

Since we have scarce ability slots compared to how many abilities we're going to have, and from how it seems, elemency aptitude is going to take up an ability slot so you can be a mage. If you can just class classname and can class into that, would it at least give abilities a bit of a breather to have elemency aptitude be part of the class instead of an ability on its own? You're not going to be able to select anything else anyway, no? Or does elemency aptitude do anything else other than just be a prereq for elemencer?

[Rias]

Yet more responses, both to things in this thread and things I've seen elsewhere or had reported to me.

Q: When will this all be ready?
A: When it's ready! It'll probably be implemented in waves, like basic combat (and probably some of the focused-combat-style) first, then class specializations a little later. I will say the first wave will be Actually Soon(tm)!

Q: Will we get ability resets?
A: Maybe! Depends on how smooth things go. I will say this: Don't just spend all your points immediately on the first release if the things you're interested in haven't been released yet.

Q: Is this trend of gating things behind ability points, like the multiple added metalworking crafting abilities, going to continue?
A: Yes. I've never been a fan of letting a single character do virtually everything. Pick your character's niche, and leave some available for other characters to fill so everyone can feel important, useful, and unique! I feel this makes for a much healthier community than having a single omnipotent character who can handle virtually any request, and make everyone else feel like they can't find an opportunity to participate or stand out. It's okay to disagree with this, and I'm aware of plenty of games that don't have such restrictions and how fun they can be. It's just not what I want for this game.

Q: What do you mean, Primary Attributes will be an ability point investment?
A: You'll pick your Primary Attribute by taking its corresponding ability, like any other ability. Though now that I think about it ... having it chosen through an NPC trainer does seem kind of weird. Maybe? If that seems too strange, I can always make another method of choosing those specific abilities, but then that's just one more layer of code complication to get through and pushing other things back.

Q: Can a Primary Attribute ability be unlearned?
A: No, and you can only learn one Primary Attribute ability.

Q: Can I learn the abilities to craft what I want, then unlearn those abilities to free up points for other stuff once I've crafted what I need?
A: I very much don't like this kind of thinking, so count on my trying to figure out a way to prevent stuff like this. If crafting those things isn't going to be something your character would normally do, you should ask someone else who -does- want to actually be built around crafting those things to make them for you. Let them feel important and useful for their chosen specialization!

Q: "I am so torn on choices. On one hand, Gudleifr's axe. On the other, Tower Shield."
A: Don't you dare let that axe go to waste!

Q: Will Wyrvardn be restricted to heavy armor classes?
A: Probably not, hence the Duelist being considered as one of their options. Nightblade, Marauder, and possibly Berserker all seem more iffy considering "Honor" is one of the Five Tenets of the Wyrvardn. Yes, it is possible to imagine an honorable example of any of those three, but again, trying to avoid the meta/theorycrafted builds that are exceptions to the norm and stray too far off the beaten paths. I don't want to muddy the intended presentation of these guilds. Whatever they case, they do insist on their members being particuarly capable at combat, hence the requiring of a combat specialization of some kind to join.

Q: What about a certain Wyrvardn NPC that used light armour with a musket?
A: Duelist would definitely suit her!

Q: How will we choose our character's class?
A: It's an ability you learn from a trainer. When you choose it, as part of the confirmation step it will inform you of its exclusivity and list the other classes and guilds you will be locked out of if you move forward.

Q: Will the Elemancy Aptitude ability actually do anything?
A: It's the class choice ability for Elemancer, and all class choices will have some kind of benefits to them, often in the way of some Boring Bonuses. Admittedly, I don't know what this particular one will grant yet. Considering how many elemancy abilities already have extra little side benefits or utilities though, I wouldn't expect this ability on its own to be anything especially remarkable.

Q: Will alchemy be a thing?
A: Probably as part of the Physicker class.

Q: Is this all going to be combat-centric stuff?
A: No, but a lot of the combat-centric stuff is coming first because combat is in a weird place at the moment without any supporting abilities. And for better or worse, combat is a huge part of the game. I'm glad people want to do other stuff besides combat, but the setting lends itself to being pretty combat-heavy. Don't worry, crafting is up near the top of the priority list too!

Q: Will there be music abilities?
A: I think it'd be neat, if we could figure out how to make them feel meaningful. At the very least it'd be nice to somehow prevent the why-not-ism of everyone eventually mastering every musical instrument just because there was no reason not to. Maybe require ability points for learning more than one instrument, or something. (And build higher limits into Bards and Mummers.)

[artus]

Alright so classes by themselves are abilities, and attributes are also abilities, and all use ability points. Is my understanding correct?

I think letting npcs train attributes is fine as long as they're appropriate for the job, like you just went through some intense physical endurance training with a combat trainer, train body building with another trainer, go through dexterity practice wit someone else blah blah bla. It does make sense. Just to make sure though. It's not a requirement, right?

[Rias]

Alright so classes by themselves are abilities, and attributes are also abilities, and all use ability points. Is my understanding correct?

Correct.

[Picking a primary attribute] is not a requirement, right?

Correct, it's completely optional.

[Dorn]

Q: "I am so torn on choices. On one hand, Gudleifr's axe. On the other, Tower Shield."
A: Don't you dare let that axe go to waste!

Guess that answers that really. The axe does have a certain siren's allure to it. Classic Black imagery.

[Zeldryn]

Likewise excited for the future.

Definitely like the way things sound, and look forward to things as they come. Thanks again for elaboration and additional details!

[Southpaw]

I just wanted to drop in and suggest that marauder be considered for Utasa. the play style of that class would fit well with the guild. It would definitely add a little diversity to the organization as well.

[Gorth]

Everybody do the Marauder mash:

Marauder fit a lot of places, in my head. They are very versatile concepts.

- Brotherhood of the Fist: Just less refined. Flavor them as leaning into the Fedor Emelianenko or Conor McGregor over the... I don't know. A more technical MMA fighter. I go to fencing for my technicality, most times.
- Dwaedn Wyr: I think I mentioned above, but throwing yourself into a fight and using whatever is around you at all times to survive? Metal, and also perfect for this. Are you telling me that animals don't fight dirty or use strengths to their advantage, like tools? We have shields. At least it isn't a Guardian. Our shield is for defense, sure, but also... face smash!
- Thieves: Marauder isn't a question mark here, but I figured I would highlight it. Thugs are awesome, and there is nothing more awesome than a normal looking dude who you are having a business meeting with who can also smash your face through a desk. And then hit you with the broken pieces of wood from the desk.
- Templar: I think Marauder fits here, personally, but I recognize that it might be leaning a little far from the base. But I'll stil ltry, just in case. Hey look, a rhyme. Anyway, when you care so much about doing good that you will do anything for it, including fighting dirty... seems to work to me, especially considering dreadnoughts. My vision of dreadnoughts has always been a bit more brutally killing machine than Guardian.
- Wyrvardn: See the Templars. I think it fits better here, than Templar. Some dude fighting for his home with whatever he can get his hands on.

[Marauder]

Did somebody call for me???

Oh.

Yeah, thirded. Marauders are about adaptability and honorless combat, which doesn't necessarily exclude a lot of guilds. Thug-based Thieves would be GREAT. The major issue with Dwaedn Wyr is the lore behind Dwaedn Wyr might exclude Marauders because they're extremely dishonorable, but on the flip side; anything goes in a life or death battle.

Templars? Definitely not, in my opinion. It'd possibly ruin their ability to use their magic if they focused too much on dirty tactics.

[Gorth]

The major issue with Dwaedn Wyr is the lore behind Dwaedn Wyr might exclude Marauders because they're extremely dishonorable, but on the flip side; anything goes in a life or death battle.

Templars? Definitely not, in my opinion. It'd possibly ruin their ability to use their magic if they focused too much on dirty tactics.

I wasn't around to play before the time gap, but is the argument that fighting with everything you have, dirty or not, is much like the beasts they revere not worth pursuing? I'm not saying you're wrong; I get why it was a question mark'd option. But I dunno. I think that tangentially related classes don't need to be excluded. Particularly when there already are not a lot of classes that can play in the guild.

Templars, though, I get. While I think that the focus on how dirty they fight is not necessarily warranted, considering they have more depth, it's also just a fair assessment.

[Gorth]

Double post, but I think it's worth adding the general sentiment that... everyone fights dirty, when it comes down to it. Obviously this might be pushing too hard into realism, but if you are back against a wall with a man's sword at your neck, you will probably do anything to get out of that situation, even if it means kneeing him in the groin, or throwing dirt in his face, or biting his ear off. Knights grappled and stabbed at visors to try and blind each other, and a huge tactic in the most honorable of men was to fight with their back to the sun to make it harder for an enemy to fight. Hell, even the footwork employed by trained swordsman was never unwilling to work toward using the terrain around them to their advantage. Distract someone with your swordwork while you maneuver them into a rougher patch of ground, and get an advantage. Punch them in the face while they aren't expecting it.

Dunno. I find it hard to imagine someone refusing another person entry into a guild in the Lost Lands of all place, based on how dirty they fight. In a place where, for some people, every living moment is a desperate, bloody struggle for breath.

But it's also a game.

[Rias]

NOTE: THIS IS ALL A WORK IN PROGRESS! Abilities may be added, removed, tweaked, and so on. In cases of extreme changes, ability resets may be offered. I'm essentially having the players serve as testers for this, so be prepared for changes or alterations.

There are now some combat abilities available! Taking certain abilities will inform the player that they may unlock, or lock out of, exclusive classes or guilds. This should help people make more informed decisions regarding guild eligibility. Legacy characters already in guilds -should- be prevented from taking an ability that would prevent them from being able to take a class their guild accepts, but the logic is fiddly so please report if you somehow get stuck unable to pick a class your guild allows, or somehow manage to pick a class not accepted by your guild (see the first post in this thread for list of guild/class compatibility).

Note that class trainers can also teach abilities not locked behind their associated class.

Shadgard trainers:
- the berserker Baerig (class trainer, found in barracks or on guard duty in the gatehouse)
- the dreadnought trainer (class trainer, found in barracks, will be given a name later)
- the duelist Agata (class trainer, found in barracks)
- the guardian Olwyn (class trainer, found in barracks)
- the marauder trainer (class trainer, found in barracks, will be given a name later)
- the nightblade Jahid (class trainer, found in barracks)
- the sharpshooter Jaclyn (ranged abilities, found in barracks or on guard duty atop the gatehouse)
- the skirmisher Tonalli (ranged abilities, found in barracks)
- the huntress Falore (ranged abilities, found in Lost Ranger lounge or on guard duty atop the gatehouse)

Corvus trainers (all in the barracks):

- the marauder Braith (class trainer)
- the dreadnought Jorunnr (class trainer)
- the duelist Hasim (class trainer)
- the hunter Hettan (ranged abilities)
- the nightblade Ephai (class trainer)
- the guardian Pathos (class trainer)

I just realized Corvus is missing a Berserker class trainer. Oops. I'll get a generic one thrown in soon, same location (barracks).

Ranged abilities are relatively few, as there aren't any ranged combat specialized classes. Unsure if this will change, but there are more ranged abilities in the pipe that are more specific to particular weapon types.

A script was run earlier to remove abilities from legacy characters if they didn't have the prerequisites for the abilities, as well as a few non-functioning abilities like the old tactics abilities and the old Dirty Tricks. This should have freed up a bunch of points for many legacy characters. Unfortunately it also removed a lot of sorcery abilities from Rooks, because a bunch of prerequisites changed, but Rooks can go to their guild trainer and re-learn the abilities. Sorry for the inconvenience, Rooks!

I am aware that confirming the learning of some abilities with exclusivity or guild compatibility warnings is pretty janky, in that it has to be asked about four times in a row. I'll get that straightened out later, but for now please bear with it.

I feel like I had more to say or explain on the subject, but I'm tired, so that's about it for this post. Oh, and as always: Please give feedback here in this thread, and report bugs via the BUG command in-game.

Happy combatting with actual abilities!

P.S. Updated the original post to show that Udemi will now accept Nightblades, Bards, and Berserkers in addition to Rangers. Hooray for variety and some increased combat capability in their fight against the resen out in the wilds!

[Rias]

Regarding Marauders, as:

- Brotherhood of the Fist: Marauders aren't particularly geared toward specialized brawling or unarmed combat, it's just a part of their pragmatic toolkit. Having this guild accept anything beyond a class that is specifically built solely around brawling combat doesn't feel quite right (which means we need the Pugilist class). This guild has always been quite niche anyway, and I'm of the opinion it should stay that way.
- Dwaedn Wyr: Possibly! I'm constantly going back and forth on this one.
- Guild of Thieves: Yep, they're already an option.
- Templar and Wyrvardn: Marauders lean too heavily into deliberately fighting dirty and cheaply to be in these organizations that both have a significant emphasis on honor and idealism.

I think it's worth adding the general sentiment that... everyone fights dirty, when it comes down to it.

Sure, but there's a difference between that and deliberately basing an entire combat style around fighting as dirty (dirtily?) and cheaply as possible. One could absolutely argue that it's silly for groups like the Templar or Wyrvardn to not embrace that particular combat style, but they still wouldn't do it. These groups aren't solely concerned with winning fights, they're also trying to stand for something. Idealism versus pragmatism, and all that!

[ydia]

I am curious where herbalism will fall. A huge part of Ydia's background and story revolves around that. She used to make tons of poultices back in the day before she became a monk, and after. She would make sure people had them as they headed out to battles etc. Will this still be possible to some level for her as a monk, or will this be completely be dedicated to physickers? If Ydia will never be able to do herbalism again I honestly don't know how to continue my character without completely changing her story, her efforts, her path of how she got where she is.

[Gorth]

Regarding Marauders, as:

- Dwaedn Wyr: Possibly! I'm constantly going back and forth on this one.

I think the fact that you are going back and forth means there is at least some merit to the idea. In my opinion, it's better to let players play potential unique takes on things, especially if it could generate a bit of roleplay around people not believing they belong. As long as that never turns to hazing or making that person entirely unwelcome in the faction simply for a class choice, that is what I call roleplay.

- Templar and Wyrvardn: Marauders lean too heavily into deliberately fighting dirty and cheaply to be in these organizations that both have a significant emphasis on honor and idealism.

That's fair.

Sure, but there's a difference between that and deliberately basing an entire combat style around fighting as dirty (dirtily?) and cheaply as possible. One could absolutely argue that it's silly for groups like the Templar or Wyrvardn to not embrace that particular combat style, but they still wouldn't do it. These groups aren't solely concerned with winning fights, they're also trying to stand for something. Idealism versus pragmatism, and all that!

Again, fair. If it is a recognized thing that these factions wouldn't appreciate a member who does the time, but not the crime, as it were, by doing the good, but in a less than stellar way for the image, then it fits.

[Rias]

I'm leaning mostly against Marauder Dwaedn, frankly. Marauder as a concept just strikes me particularly strongly as a human mindset type of class, rather than embracing the bestial ferocity (Berserker) or predator-like stalking and ruthless "way of the hunt" (Nightblade, Ranger). I'm just not getting the fierce animal/primal Dwaedn Wyr vibe from them.

I am curious where herbalism will fall.

Physickers will definitely get the best of creating healing items and such. Monks will get some options there as well, as at least flavor-wise it's always been implied that they gather healing herbs for this purpose (you may recall the tasks they had to gather those) and I've always had the idea in the back of my mind that they maintain some kind of herb garden somewhere as well or something like that. Some other classes will probably get some low-level basic herbal healing options, like Rangers making a basic healing unguent. I don't want it to be completely available to anyone though, because then it becomes another "why not" thing that everyone does because everyone can, and then there's nothing special about the people who want to make it a specific meaningful part of their character.

[Adresin]

This herbalism thing makes me sad, since I could totally see templars using herbalism as supplemental healing to be thoughtful about when the inner light is used. More personally, Alia's backstory would fit so so well for her to pick it up if only in a minor way, even if it meant using one of those precious ability points to do so.

It's not a deal breaker or anything by any means, and logically I understand it. It's just one of those niche things that would totally be her. If we're at least able to forage them, perhaps she'll be a supplier to those who can make use of them or something. Do you think that would be feasible?

[Ninetales16]

all these ideas are so exciting to look at, and make me eager to lean actively into playing my character once again, to be honest. I am keeping a very close eye on this.
I have expressed my gratitude both in game, and I will say this here, as well. thank you so, so much for the continual effort into making this such an awesome experience
I also want to say that one thing that rias wrote made me very happy, and I truly hope htis will be taken in much consideration

Some other classes will probably get some low-level basic herbal healing options, like Rangers making a basic healing unguent. I don't want it to be completely available to anyone though, because then it becomes another "why not" thing that everyone does because everyone can, and then there's nothing special about the people who want to make it a specific meaningful part of their character.

I love diversity. I truly hope this diversity will be embraced. I wish for my character to add a personal touch to the class style I am trying to play, not to be one of many people doing the same things over and over in the same format.
I am sure the future is definitely bright, and I can only hope htat specific guilds add their own personal takes into what means to be a marauder, dreadnought, guardian, etcetera. otherwise, everyone might just get the same class in the better mechanical guild, and that would be it, for mechanical purposes. Perhaps my idea is more of a roleplay one, but also it would be on a mechanical case, as well. what things would make a diferent wyrvardn guardian diferent from a templar one, for example? or a mummer rogue diferent from a utasa rogue besides the rp it would foster? I am not sure how guild things will be addressed, but I hope that unique touches will be, in future, added to each, so not all rogues, bards, or guardians just feel the same.
I am not sure this post manages to deliver my point across, so apologies if the wording is unclear, but these are my thoughts
once again, thank you, rias! for the continual support of the game, for fostering this comunity, for the world and experience it brings! I can not waitto engage in more roleplay, ot see the interesting characters and experiences the gms bring to the world, and meet more colourful people! I am very excited to see what the future has in store!

[verel]

I am most keen on knowing more about magical abilities. Elemancers had some really cool ones back in the day, most of which required a lot of work to get.

It's satisfying to work hard for something, and I loved the idea that they were a bit spread out as far as skill requirements were concerned since you are studying super hard to get better at elemancy.

Plus, who doesn't love cooking meat on top of your fire sphere, am I right? I mean, you have the thing up and it's made of fire, so makes sense to me.

[Vazbol]

So we brought up marauder (the spec) a lot today. The allure of pocket sand and other tricks being what some people want in a lot of their playstyles. But I have to ask if some abilities are working for some people. One I want to get into is the description for the marauder spec from npc's. It states it helps you trigger dirty tricks when attacking, or successfully defending. but dirt kicks only launch when attacking.

Noticed the same problems for Tactical dodge and shameless opportunist, and have bugged those as well. As well, are the trainers for said class supposed to teach artifice? Not sure in Shadgard, but the Corvus one is missing it.