Import shop

[sona]

Could we have artisan dues done away with, until we can get the shop stocked at minimum, once a month? Because otherwise it feels like we're getting hosed for nothing.

[Jirato]

There's a lot more to your dues than just the import shop. Like your discount with the workspace rentals. And, uhh... stuff... I'll need to double check the code to see where all else I've implemented dues checks.

[sona]

re: workspace rentals. I don't suppose we could get monthly rentals/rates. Maybe like 5000/month? Because when I had stuff lapse by a day, It took me more than a month to decide to actually go get my stuff and do artisan things again, because so much stuff. Better yet, personal, permanent shops/workshops would be stupendously awesome. It'd give players a place to go look at PC wares, It'd let artisans craft and put stuff up, and actually might even be a decent chance of players tracking down an artisan for artisan-related RP, because...most likely to be in their work shop, working on orders. Ring a bell, and bam, they hear there's a customer out front, pause their work, and go see what the customer needs.

[sona]

And I hope we don't downplay the Import shop. It's sorta a main draw, being able to get rarer materials, at least semi-regularly.

[Jirato]

I never wanted the import shop to be the main draw of the guild. :-(

You can pre-pay for your workshops 2 weeks in advance, I think that's sufficient time. If you just top it off every time you use it, the only time it'd lapse is if you just flat out don't play CLOK for 2 weeks.

[sona]

Import shop may be less of a main draw, if there was a greater chance of being able to pop a glittering cavern more than once a year, or less. Certainly there's a lot of improvements that need to be implemented, but if expanded crafting and rare materials aren't part of being an Artisan, I don't know what else they have got going for them, as craftspersons.

The expanded craftset is ok, it could certainly be vastly improved, by including more complex things, such as guns, being able to make bullets, and maybe something other than sword variant #52, don't get me wrong, I like sword variant #52, but I hope for more.

Thankfully the withdrawal system for packed out stuff was still bugged at the time, but if it did work at 50 riln/item instead of by weight, I would have had to pay over 15,000 riln just to get my stuff back, because I missed payment, got distracted by RL, other games, etc. That would have borderline had me stop doing artisan work. No repairs, no new orders. Because I spent too long doing forging stuff and got burnt out and getting my stuff back, let alone thinking of trying to organize it would be a massive undertaking.

at 450/day, or 13,500 a month, it just doesn't seem it without constant play. packing stuff out is also a huge pain. I think there's got to be a reason high end artisans just get tired and for the most part get lost to attrition, perhaps more than any other guild, and I think the things I've mentioned are definitely significant components to this.

[Jirato]

I'll have to look at the bins and stuff in those workshops, you shouldn't be able to store THAT much in there. It's mostly for you to store stuff for a couple days worth of projects, maybe enough to make a couple sets of armor or a dozen or so weapons. It's certainly not intended to be a rentable storeroom.

[sona]

I can rent for 2 weeks, but I can't store 2 weeks worth of [crap] in there? Seems a bit bogus.

[merin]

I agree with Sona on this one.

[Jirato]

What's bogus, is those crates hold three tons of material.

It should be like 500 or maybe even 750 max.

[merin]

So just enough to give us, what, 180 pounds of material? 750/4 = 187. 125 for 500 pounds.

that would be enough for me, provided the container could hold 180 standard bars. I don't care so mucha bout the weight as the quantity.

[sona]

Please sir, may our guild stuff not receive more nerf-fixes? Every time I enquire about nicer or more convenient stuff, something seems to be reduced, removed, or altered in a non-beneficial way.

[merin]

I've had to think on this one for a while before responding, but here's my take.

First, I do agree with Sona. We pay for the space, we should be able to use it to store a good number of materials. Having said that, I don't think that the storage should be that, storage. If artisans want excessive storage, we make enough to store thousands of items in a bankvault. My suggestion is to implement better sorting/withdrawing options. something like:
check vault metal

This would go through and show your metal bars. You can do it for hilts/hafts/weapons/clothing/other such categories. This would make them more of a draw. It would be nice, too, for Haiban's bank to have the ability to have handcarts be able to enter it, so I could withdraw metal 3 20 and withdraw 20 steel bars.

Alternatively, have it stack, so when I check vault I see "a standard steel bar x 10" rather than 10 numbers that are labeled "a standard steel bar."

Next, the imports shop. It's great, and while I feel that it can be stalked a bit more frequently, I do understand the rarities of the materials within. I do also feel that there should be some way for us to go and retrieve cobalt/riversteel/bloodsand and not have to tell people sorry dude I'm out of bloodsand when the artisan could make a killing on a couple orders. This, personally, is why I hord my cobalt like there's no tomorrow. If I had some sort of way to get it, even if it was a giant pain in the ass, I would. I don't think it's completely fair to wait on you to decide when we get the rare materials when someone can go and kill a dracalin for their scales and have the armor or everyone else in the game can get their high-end stuff no problem. I do understand materials are supposed to be rare, and I completely agree. I've heard things are coming, but we've sort of been left in the dark as to what or any sort of idea as to what. I know we probably won't get told anything on that front -- and I'm sure I'm not the only one with faith that you're working on it, but, never hurts to ask.

On that note, too, player mines need to be opened up so us high-end artisans can get one or they need to be done away with, in my opinion. Especially since the people with them are seeming to fade from existence. I could and probably am wrong about that, though.

Third, another question :
can mining/lapidary/lumberjacking be put under their abilities like artisan blacksmith and artisan leatherworking?

[sona]

+1

[Dorn]

On that note, too, player mines need to be opened up so us high-end artisans can get one or they need to be done away with, in my opinion. Especially since the people with them are seeming to fade from existence. I could and probably am wrong about that, though.

As an owner of one, +1 so much. Personally, I'd rather see them go away completely. It would make the random mines out there in the wilderness, and town mines, so much more important again.

[merin]

It would make finding and knowing their location that much more important, too. I know of two, one of which we can't use and one of which is infested with infested things!

[Kunren]

It would make finding and knowing their location that much more important, too. I know of two, one of which we can't use and one of which is infested with infested things!

Not counting city mines, I know of at least 4 non-player owned mines. All of which would require a hired mercenary guard (yay!) or some personal combative skill, 2, possibly 3 of which having potential IC light to heavy consequences for using.

[sona]

Any replies to this? We've all been in agreement on mines for a long time now - and we admit that takes work. Stocking an import that we pay (part of artisan dues) to be stocked takes minimum effort. Very minimum effort. Further, it would be a very nice idea to send a mail out to all merchants when the import shop is stocked, this should also be minimal effort to send a guild wide mail? Instead, we pay and pray that perhaps someday, our supposedly wealthy establishment with trade connections will come through, isntead of continuing to fail and flounder.

Merin even came up with a lovely compromise regarding storage space, serious artisan stuff, and bank stuff.

[Orris]

I know you want to get stuff in your import shop, and I want you to too, but you keep bringing up the dues. I pay monthly dues in my guild too, and we don't have any shop that gets special rare things stocked occasionally, at all. Your import shop hasn't been stocked in several months. Well we went with all of our abilities being virtually impossible to use for several months. But that had nothing to do with dues. Riln wouldn't bring our abilities back, riln won't make bloodglass appear from thin air. The dues are for keeping your guild operating and not just for stocking your special shop.

The Trade Coalition isn't failing and floundering. They had their HQ destroyed and built a huge city there in the aftermath! It looks like they're doing very well for themselves. Your import shop depends on availability of supply. We're in a quaratine remember? Even if Grum is overflowing in cobalt, there's probably still few people willing to trade into our special little slice of hell.

I do want you to get more things in your import shop, I really do. It seems like it would be a major part of being in your guild, being able to get cool rare imports that nobody else can get. And it would be good to get supplied more regularly, yes. But it sounds like you're trying to rile things up to get a response and that is just going to make Jirato upset instead of get you what you want. Saying your guild is failing and floundering when they had an entire city built around them, and it even recently just had a huge expansion and you got a new artisan only compound and whatever else, is just wrong.

Sorry, it isn't much of my business probably. I just think all these accusations basically saying your guild sucks are going to be counterproductive.

[sona]

I know you want to get stuff in your import shop, and I want you to too, but you keep bringing up the dues. I pay monthly dues in my guild too, and we don't have any shop that gets special rare things stocked occasionally, at all. Your import shop hasn't been stocked in several months. Well we went with all of our abilities being virtually impossible to use for several months. But that had nothing to do with dues. Riln wouldn't bring our abilities back, riln won't make bloodglass appear from thin air. The dues are for keeping your guild operating and not just for stocking your special shop.

Your guild isn't primarily mired in the exchange of services and use of riln. I don't think your guild fees are 1500/month. Have you been active in the last 7 months? Admittedly, with this and other stuff just making general things relatively unfun, it's hard to keep an interest. I think the "stuff will go on, whether you're here for it or not" was meant to raise the spirits and encourage play, but everything's just been so negative. With no less than 3 major plot/events that are "punishing" It's sort of like kicking a dog when it's down.

The Trade Coalition isn't failing and floundering. They had their HQ destroyed and built a huge city there in the aftermath! It looks like they're doing very well for themselves. Your import shop depends on availability of supply. We're in a quaratine remember? Even if Grum is overflowing in cobalt, there's probably still few people willing to trade into our special little slice of hell.

If a -trade- coalition can't facilitate trade and production, then it is in my mind floundering. It was sort of nice getting an expansion, I was excited, but I think more was meant for it than came to pass, because what came to pass was expensive work rooms, with expensive pack out fees, a desire to reduce container sizes in the work rooms by GMs. Other than that, you've just made the area larger and moved half of Haiban South into Haiban North. That's my thoughts on it at least.

I do want you to get more things in your import shop, I really do. It seems like it would be a major part of being in your guild, being able to get cool rare imports that nobody else can get. And it would be good to get supplied more regularly, yes. But it sounds like you're trying to rile things up to get a response and that is just going to make Jirato upset instead of get you what you want. Saying your guild is failing and floundering when they had an entire city built around them, and it even recently just had a huge expansion and you got a new artisan only compound and whatever else, is just wrong.

In a way, I do want a response. I want to talk about things, I want to discuss, find common ground, etc. I've felt like the best way to fix something that doesn't work, is to discuss it, come to an agreement together. If it's one sided, then there's no point. And if there's no point, there's no hope. Obviously, I would like to have some hope. Rias himself has mentioned on the forums that we've got a lot of problems, the game is understaffed, there are too many hamlets. And that is probably just the tip of the ice burg. Maybe there are too many guilds, maybe we need to have 1/4 of them axed. Maybe more.

The point is, I think we need to talk about the problems as a community.

[Jirato]

Just dropping a note here to let you know that I've read your post. I'm not going to respond, at least not today, since I don't think I can find a way to word a reply without being angry and defensive.

[Kunren]

Just dropping a note here to let you know that I've read your post. I'm not going to respond, at least not today, since I don't think I can find a way to word a reply without being angry and defensive.

Thank you. Although I understand that people need to bring their problems to the attention of the GMs, and that they tend to want something done about whatever it is ASAP, occasionally people do go to far in the wording of their posts. I'm really grateful that as a GM you can be mature enough to not respond until calm, otherwise things would really start spiraling down.

[sona]

No worries, I can understand that. It's hard not to sound angry and defensive, or offensive about topics which are sensitive, and difficult to deal with. Not to mention it's a topic that splits the playerbase on opinions in many different ways. I don't think everyone's ever going to agree on everything, but I think discussion would be helpful. I don't know how we can do this, and make it work well, but I'd like to try and I like to think the community would as well. Maybe that involves our help, our feedback on plots, what we think is reasonable and unreasonable.

If Sona needs to fade away into the background, and if it's better for the community for me to step back, and stop voicing my opinions and thoughts, I can do that. I do apprectiate the effort you and Rias sink into things, even when I have criticisms and concerns. I just wanted you to know that as well.

[Kunren]

No worries, I can understand that. It's hard not to sound angry and defensive, or offensive about topics which are sensitive, and difficult to deal with. Not to mention it's a topic that splits the playerbase on opinions in many different ways. I don't think everyone's ever going to agree on everything, but I think discussion would be helpful. I don't know how we can do this, and make it work well, but I'd like to try and I like to think the community would as well. Maybe that involves our help, our feedback on plots, what we think is reasonable and unreasonable.

If Sona needs to fade away into the background, and if it's better for the community for me to step back, and stop voicing my opinions and thoughts, I can do that. I do apprectiate the effort you and Rias sink into things, even when I have criticisms and concerns. I just wanted you to know that as well.

I had a long, wordy post ready, but I decided to chunk it after rereading it. All I want to say is, don't stop voicing your opinions. The fact that players can play such a huge role in the growth of clok is by far my favorite part of this game. However, please at least give the GMs the same courtesy they are giving us, by not responding to a topic until you can word it calmly. If your posts seem calm already to you, all I can hope for is that you double check them.

[Jirato]

If Sona needs to fade away into the background, and if it's better for the community for me to step back, and stop voicing my opinions and thoughts, I can do that.

Don't do that.