The mine is falling, the mine is falling!

[crystal2014]

I want to say, thank you for all the work that the GMs put into clok!
I have been trying to figure out a way to bring this up without seeming like a complainer! Mine supports in player own mines are the subject on my mine this morning!
First, 1 support = 13 flitches which = 1 tree
Second, the average size for a mine seems to be around 10 to 15 rooms
Third, and I am not exact about this part, an exquisite mine support seems to last about 7 to 10 days.

If one person is doing most of the tree chopping, log processing, plank sawing, and building the supports, this quickly becomes a constant in game responsibility with no time for anything else.

I use to think that I was exaggerating, but now that I can look at the supports and see who built each one, I know that I am truly working double time keeping the mine in good repair.

I know at this point most will say, and then let it collapse! The problem with this is that player own mines have things in them that aren’t offered in the in game mining areas. Things like, iron, coal, tin, ruby, garnet, gold, silver, etc so artisans need a player own mine in order to fulfill most of their in game demands.

I propose that perhaps spikes can be added to the mine support supply list, and if you use spikes, the support last twice as long. If this isn’t possible, cut the supply list for each mine support in half, and at least the flitches from one tree are enough to build two mine supports?

I understand that being an artisan is hard work, and I am willing to work hard, but I just don’t want to be stuck building supports and no time to do anything else.

It would also be nice if a miner was required somehow to bring a few logs or flitches every now and again to support the mine maintenance!

[Lae]

This is gonna sound mean, but I really don't mean it that way. Just as a forewarning.

This is mostly an IC issue. Sure, getting the supplies for this is hard but you could hire someone to chop down trees at a pretty reasonable rate. Heck, there are chopped down trees all over the place not being used. Having never worked in a mine or made supports I can't say whether or not the materials needed to make supports is too much or too little, but in the past I've seen you guys support a whole large mine within days of working together.

If people aren't working on it like they used to, then maybe the mine needs to be a bit smaller, I don't know.

Throw around some riln and get people to get off their tookuses to do some work, I know you can do it!

[Fayne]

I'm not meaning to sound mean either, but I just wanted to point out a few things:

First, back when player mines were something tou could buy, I'm pretty sure just about anyone could get them. That meant any Tom, Dick, or Sally could go buy a stake and open up a mine. If they did this, the wilderness would be nothing but mines everywhere. So how do you combat this? Well, make them hard to maintain by yourself. The mines were designed in a way that they get harder to maintain exponentially in relation to how many rooms the mine is composed of. If you gave two or three rooms, easy peasy, no problem. Ten rooms, you better be prepared to work, and twenty rooms would be impossible to maintain alone. I know mining is getting some overhauls done before private mines are re-released, and I expect they'll be limited in who can buy them when they are, but I do not think this will nor should change. A mine is not a one person operation.

Second, I don't know if you remember Clayton much, but he used to be the only one who would take care of Gad's mine. A handlful of people used it, but only he built supports and kept the rooms dug. Gad's mine was bigger than 10 rooms. At one time, he had rooms dug in all eight directions, and then had tooms dug in the seven remaining direction in each of those rooms. He managed maintain that mine all by himself. Sure, it probably took an entire day of nothing but building mine supports, but that's what needed to be done.

So I'll give you a bit of advice to help you out. First, ask for help. Ask for people to sell you logs or nails or whatever. This can cut out hours of forging or logging easily. Second, don't wait until the dupports are damaged to replace them. Each mine support in a room gets used successively, so rather than every support getting used at once, one support will get used until it collapses, then the next one will kick in. If you do this, you can bring enough supplies for one or two supports a day, and you'll never end up stuck building an entire mine's worth of supports ever again. And yes, third, if that doesn't work, then it may be time to just let a room or two go so you can handle the work.

I hope I helped a little at least. Again, wasn't trying to be mean, just wanted to point out that things are supposed to be this way, it is still doable, and provide some tips to help you do it.

[crystal2014]

I have no problem with paying a few new players to cut down a few trees for me, and I have done so in the pass; however, I am not the only person using these mines and don’t think that I should have to maintain them all by myself, and the mines I am working so hard to keep open do not belong to me!

What I am saying is, this, if these things are needed in game play, or sort after in game play, can the process be made more game friendly, I would much rather pay a fee to go mine in an area that I do not have to maintain, than to get stuck maintaining an area for everyone to mine without contributing to the work.

Of course when Gad comes across the ESP and says he needs help putting up supports everyone jumps to it because that’s his mine and they know he has the power to kick them out of it, and the same goes for mascon! I don’t have that power so when I call for help to get materials for the mine one or two players answer if they are around and others, that I have seen using the mine in question do not bother to offer a help in hand.

If we lose the player mines, artisan loses the ability to make neat looking weapons, jewelry and other nice in game objects.

So please, don’t see this as just an IC issue because it is not. This is a situation that concerns the artisans as a whole, (along with other miners and blacksmiths) and being able to get the materials we need to do our part in the game world.

[Jirato]

So how do you combat this? Well, make them hard to maintain by yourself. The mines were designed in a way that they get harder to maintain exponentially in relation to how many rooms the mine is composed of. If you gave two or three rooms, easy peasy, no problem. Ten rooms, you better be prepared to work, and twenty rooms would be impossible to maintain alone.

Pretty much this exactly

I know mining is getting some overhauls done before private mines are re-released

I don't think it's even been stated that private mines will be re-released?


Overall, they're supposed to be super difficult to maintain. Also, there's no real penalty for having a room collapse (outside of it collapsing with you or your stuff in it). If a few rooms deteriorate and collapse, just have the mine owner dig new ones, which you can then expand and reinforce.

[crystal2014]

FYI
another thing, It appears the smaller the mine, the smaller the selection of ores and gems seem to be. so a small player mine = copper, quartz and zinc etc. The more areas the more possibilities for better ores and gems.

[Nootau]

If a few rooms deteriorate and collapse, just have the mine owner dig new ones, which you can then expand and reinforce.

...And if the old players who used to own mines disappear and digging new rooms become a impossibility?

[Lysse]

Of course when Gad comes across the ESP and says he needs help putting up supports everyone jumps to it because that’s his mine and they know he has the power to kick them out of it, and the same goes for mascon! I don’t have that power so when I call for help to get materials for the mine one or two players answer if they are around and others, that I have seen using the mine in question do not bother to offer a help in hand.

The only "power" a mine owner has is to say "Stop mining there", and either stand guard themselves, or pay another PC to guard it. Unless there's some mechanic I'm unfamiliar with of course, regarding mines.

[crystal2014]

Jirato says "If a few rooms deteriorate and collapse, just have the mine owner dig new ones, which you can then expand and reinforce."

That's an awesome plan if the owners are around to dig them again! I know Gad shows up a few times a weekk or so, but Mascon, well, I haven't seen him in more than a month!

SO will the GM's consider allowing the mine owners to assign one or two other persons the ability to dig rooms in their mines? in my opinion, this isn't a fix but a compromise that would sort of erase the pressure of mine support responsibility.

[blindndangerous]

Exactly Nootau. I don't see Gad come around extremely offten, and I haven't seen Mascond around in a good long while now. The only other mine I know about is Collins, and in all my time here, I've never seen him. If I'm on my artisan, I always try to double check the mines that I use to make sure that they have supports, and when Niki spoke with me about it, I walked around with her and then went and made a ton of nails as my character has no idea how to make supports. All you gotta do is ask Crystal. But, I do agree with you.

[Fayne]

This is still an IC issue, not something game-breaking. Even if all the player mines collapsed and could not be accessed anymore, we still have Shadgard, Mistral, and Corvus to mine in. Sure, the mayerials in each location are extremely limited, but if you aren't willing to put in the work to kep a mine maintained, then that is the consequences. Also, you all seem to forget that we have Ardor, who I see around at least once a day. Yes, he might develop a monopoly on certain materials if all other mines collapse, but we will still have the ability to get whatever materials we want from him.

Look, I understand the frustration behind this, I really do, and honestly I think the existing player mines should just be converted to a system where anyone can dig out rooms, because honestly, how does it make sense from an RP perspective that only one person can dig out new rooms? But until that happens, if it indeed happens, then you just have to do what you have to do. Nothing in this game is supposed to be just handed to you.

Might I suggest that those of you concerned with people using the mones without maintaining them use this opportunity to engage in some confrontation RP? If you don't like that people are using the mines without maintaining them, confront them. As I understand it, that is usually one of the conditions the owners have for those that use their mines anyway, and tou have just as much power as they do when it comes to enforcing those rules. Talk to them, explain they need to help or else. If they refuse, take care of it somehow. Hire a guard, have someone who will come kick people out whenever they are caught in the mine, whatever. This is a great RP opportunity, seize it and take advantage of it.

[sona]

I have mixed feels about mines on the whole. Yes, I do wish this would be re-opened for at least artisans to get private mines, then they can maintain or work their own as they see fit, instead of worrying about "legacy mines", left over from the "hey, player mines don't make sense yet, lets not continue supporting it". Realistically, sure, any experienced miner should be able to start digging and make a mine with the appropriate effort, but that's not presently an in game option.

Conversely, I also understand that the limited number of mines, owned by active players (maybe mine taxes can come in with home taxes, and old mines can be resold/reused?), is an IC problem, and we can not worry about getting nice, shiny things, and deal with the limited availability, and it's troubles, ICly.

[Barius]

That's an interesting topic. Player mines shouldn't actually exist right now if there's no option for new ones to be created. Yet those already in existence are allowed to remain open instead of more resources being moved to the public mines that actually do legitimately exist in game. Unless there is a plan to return player mines back to the game, how do you justify keeping the current player mines?

[Skah]

Player mines shouldn't actually exist right now if there's no option for new ones to be created.

That statement actually requires some justification. Why shouldn't mines bought before the change in policy exist? It's not evident to me that that should be the case.

Yet those already in existence are allowed to remain open instead of more resources being moved to the public mines that actually do legitimately exist in game.

Legitimately? Strong feelings here. Many of the player mines are "public", in that some or all people can use them.

Unless there is a plan to return player mines back to the game, how do you justify keeping the current player mines?

This phrasing comes off as obnoxious to me. It's an Alpha. Mining and everything else is subject to adjustments, and the GMs don't need to justify stopping new player mines. I'd imagine the reason they kept the old ones is because they don't take away player mines, houses, or items OOC.

[Barius]

It wasn't my intent to sound obnoxious. And maybe the fact that the game is declared in Alpha negates everything I've said, but in my defense it doesn't really play as an Alpha stage game. It feels much more complete than that.

That aside, from a mechanics point of view, such a major feature of the game to be grandfathered in and treated as an IC part of the game just seems off to me. But I've never liked grandfathered anything in a game. It gives things a permanant feel of "You weren't here when this was possible, and therefore you're left out from here after."

Which I realize isn't the intent, but it is there, regardless.

[Elystole]

This is something that has been discussed in the past, and, unless things have changed, the intent is for mining to be overhauled before player mines reopen. Under the old/current system, the contents of a room are determined randomly and are restocked randomly as veins are depleted. You can also collapse a room and dig a new one in the exact same location with full ores. The GMs' intent for the new system is that mineral availability is determined by the region, thereby eliminating grab-bag mines and forcing people to trade with one another for what they need, and that once you dig out a room, that's it, it's done. You mined that section out. No more collapsing and reloading rooms to restock them.

It's an ambitious and better redesign, but it's going to take a lot of work. We only have two coders and both of them have full lives outside of CLOK. Rias's design style is also such that he flits from project to project as they interest him, sometimes working on something random for an afternoon but banging out updates, and that delays things. Other things also take higher priority. It takes some getting used to, especially if you're less of a free spirit (I am also more structured), but I'd much rather have the GMs working on the things that interest them than things that don't. If Rias or Jirato burn out, we're screwed.

Player-owned mines were left 'as is,' despite the fact that Rias doesn't even like them in their current form, because without them other sections of the game such as Artisan tasks and player crafting become untenable. Shadgard only has copper and a handful of low-quality gems. Mistral Lake was, until recently, completely closed to players. Corvus is hostile territory for most of the game and also restricted. Those mines are functioning as intended within their regions, so I don't foresee them being re-broken just to be fixed later. Without player-owned mines, a lot of people are up a creek without a paddle.

At most, I could see some of the abandoned mines having their ownership changed so that anyone can excavate them. They'd be abandoned claims and what-not, but then you run into the problem of players coming back and finding that their mines, homes, horses, whatever are missing.

[sona]

I wonder if it would be a fair compromise to make it so that any player can dig out a new area, or an "approved list" by the owner that could dig new areas, or re-dig collapsed shafts.

[Jirato]

Making a note to myself to look through the artisan tasks and make sure they don't ask for any materials that are only available in player mines.

There are a couple public mining spots out there that haven't been brought up in this discussion yet though. Keep looking! (And yes, I realize there's conflict involved in utilizing some of those mining spots, but they DO exist and shouldn't be discounted just because "I don't want to anger (faction) by mining there so you should add a risk-free alternative.")

[sona]

Another point is that apparently, or so we (I?) have experienced and believed, is that mining events, glittering caverns, drakolyns, and spiders (oh my!) are events limited ONLY to player mines, or are even rarer in public mines. Can we fix this for public mines? Is this true? Is there a reason for it? Is it possible to have player mines added back, if only for artisans or something? Or will this remain a grandfathered thing, where only owners from when this was possible may hold mines? What's the major complication about this? Is it the whole land ownership conundrum? If so, can't we just say that stakes don't confer ownership of land, just that the mine was created by the person noted on the stake?

[Rias]

The player mine system is being overhauled. New players mines won't be available until the overhaul is complete. Mine events are being overhauled along with everything else.

[sona]

Awesome! I'll just hold tight and look forward to hearing more in the future :)

[Fayne]

The player mine system is being overhauled. New players mines won't be available until the overhaul is complete. Mine events are being overhauled along with everything else.

Good ol' Rias keeping it short, sweet, and to the point. Although, this subject has been discussed dozens of times before, so yeah.