Archery Discussion

[Rithiel]

Archery sucks. I request that you make it not suck.

[Rias]

What about archery do you not like? Do you have any suggestions to improve it?

[Rithiel]

There was only one mob, and it managed to close the distance between us after I got only one arrow off, and then I couldn't change back to ranged.

I understand why the creature should be able to close to melee, because you want the mechanics to be as close to 'real' as possible. But the problem with this is that the whole point of a bow is to keep folks away from you. It's rather hard to close distance to somebody with an arrow sticking out of your chest (I'm assuming, since I've never been in that situation). In the game, only getting one arrow off because now I'm in melee and can't get out makes ranged useless, except as a lark.

I could throw out a ton of suggestions to make it not suck, but I don't know if they're doable or will balance with other mechanics. One is that the changing of combat stances (do you call them something else? I can't remember) take time. So, for instance, as an archer, I'm informed that the skeleton is trying to close to me, and I can get a few arrows off before I either decide to retreat (stay in ranged combat) which takes a bit of RT, or I can let them close and engage in melee. This would make melee abilities more fun (charge, for instance), because they would be the only reliable way to make sure somebody couldn't keep avoiding you and snipe.

Or ranged could be possible at melee range (after all, it's not like we're grappling, there's some distance involved.), you just don't have a lot of time to aim and all that jazz, so you're going to suffer a penalty to either hit or damage.

Of course, you could also implement some sort of "I've climbed up a tree and you can't get me unless I come down," sort of thing, which would make group hunting so much more fun. Send in a warrior to round up all the mobs (tank) and then bring them back towards your ambush. Could be fun (and very complicated to implement, I'd think).

You're the one who asked for suggestions.....

[Rias]

There was only one mob, and it managed to close the distance between us after I got only one arrow off, and then I couldn't change back to ranged.

I'd chalk that up to bad luck. The attacker has a chance to get lucky and close distance on the first attack, just as you have the chance to get lucky and stay at ranged distance long enough to down the mob with arrows before he can even get near you. The numbers involved are what need testing and tweaking.

If you couldn't get out to Ranged distance, it was because the mob Combat Pressed you. However, once the mob's roundtime for the Combat Press is up, you can again retreat to Ranged position. So you can either stow your bow and get out a melee weapon immediately after being Pressed, or you can wait the Press out (in which time the attacker is in roundtime and so won't be able to do anything else to you) and retreat back to Ranged.

I understand why the creature should be able to close to melee, because you want the mechanics to be as close to 'real' as possible. But the problem with this is that the whole point of a bow is to keep folks away from you. It's rather hard to close distance to somebody with an arrow sticking out of your chest (I'm assuming, since I've never been in that situation). In the game, only getting one arrow off because now I'm in melee and can't get out makes ranged useless, except as a lark.

Melee attackers are able to [attempt to - not guaranteed] close to Engage range not necessarily because I want combat to be realistic, but to give melee combatants a chance against ranged combatants.

I'm guessing that, realistically, it's comparably difficult to close distance with an arrow in your chest as it is to keep on swinging a sword when you've suffered multiple blows from a battleaxe. This is a game, though, and both are possible in the interest of keeping things fun and interesting for all parties.

I realize that the point of ranged weapons is to keep away from your enemies. However, a game requires some balance that won't make as much sense when applied to the real world. It can't be too easy to stay at ranged distance, because otherwise, who isn't going to use ranged combat and just fire away from a distance with little risk?

I could throw out a ton of suggestions to make it not suck, but I don't know if they're doable or will balance with other mechanics. One is that the changing of combat stances (do you call them something else? I can't remember) take time. So, for instance, as an archer, I'm informed that the skeleton is trying to close to me, and I can get a few arrows off before I either decide to retreat (stay in ranged combat) which takes a bit of RT, or I can let them close and engage in melee. This would make melee abilities more fun (charge, for instance), because they would be the only reliable way to make sure somebody couldn't keep avoiding you and snipe.

As long as you aren't Pressed, there's nothing stopping you from switching right back to Ranged position or running away after being pulled into Engage. When the mob manages to pull you into Engage, they're in roundtime, since they've just made the attack. You can use this time to choose to bust out a melee weapon or switch back to Ranged position and fire another arrow. In the case that you are hit with a Combat Press and can't switch positions, wait out the Press (during which time the attacker will be in roundtime) and then retreat to Ranged, as I stated earlier.

Or ranged could be possible at melee range (after all, it's not like we're grappling, there's some distance involved.), you just don't have a lot of time to aim and all that jazz, so you're going to suffer a penalty to either hit or damage.

This could work, though being Pressed would prevent firing.

Of course, you could also implement some sort of "I've climbed up a tree and you can't get me unless I come down," sort of thing, which would make group hunting so much more fun. Send in a warrior to round up all the mobs (tank) and then bring them back towards your ambush. Could be fun (and very complicated to implement, I'd think).

I'm hoping to simulate this with sniping (firing from hiding). If a mob sees hostiles out in the open, it's going to be quite unlikely that they'll stop and search around for hiding people (i.e. a sniper), so that should be close to what you're asking. A fighter wanting to keep his sniper out of the attention of enemies could also focus on using the Press attack on enemies, which causes them (NPCs, that is, not player characters) to only target whoever is Pressing them.

You're the one who asked for suggestions.....

I did, and I appreciate them.

As it is, Ranged users can attack anyone, regardless of the target's Combat Position, and also have a chance to outright avoid melee attacks. Melee users have to close distance to attack ranged users and have no chance of outright avoiding melee attacks, but have ways of temporarily preventing Ranged users from firing (but only while the melee user is in roundtime).

Melee users can have a fallback ranged weapon to combat ranged users. Ranged users can have a fallback melee weapon to combat melee users that manage to get close enough to attack them, or they can keep retreating back to Ranged position while the melee attacker is in roundtime. The only way a melee user can prevent a ranged user from retreating to Ranged position is to Combat Press them, but this only lasts as long as the Combat Press attack, so once that roundtime is up, the ranged user can jump back into Ranged position anyway. It may be annoying to keep having to switch back to Ranged position, but I'm sure it's just as annoying (if not more) for the melee user to keep having to get close enough to attack the Ranged user.

Ranged users have limited ammo, but they can carry as many arrows as they can stuff into backpacks/quivers/almost any other container, so this is more of a monetary/convenience penalty than a combat penalty, but a penalty nonetheless. However, I plan to have equipment (including melee weapons) require maintenance (repairs), which should balance this out.

Melee users can land multiple strikes per attack with certain weapons, ranged users cannot.

That's all I can think of that there is to the ranged/melee conundrum at the moment. It looks to me that ranged combat may be a bit more complicated in that you have to gather your arrows after firing them and have to do more combat position switching, but it is safer than melee combat due to the ability to outright avoid melee attacks. So you put in a little more effort (i.e. write a few macros and have a little more patience) and you stay a bit safer.

Things to consider that I plan on adding:
- Hiding and sniping will give ranged combat a further edge in the safety department (you'll then have to find the archer before you can even attempt to close the distance and attack them)
- A "multi-fire" ability will be added, allowing archers to nock and fire multiple arrows at once, balancing the ability for some melee weapons to land multiple strikes in a single attack.
- Point-blank firing will be available to archers as long as they are not in a Combat Press, at a considerable penalty to AAR.
- Shields will grant their wielders a considerable bonus in blocking ranged attacks.

I'll spend a lot of time this week testing exclusively with ranged weapons myself to see how they feel compared to melee weapons. I've used them a fair amount as it is, but haven't been using them exclusively.

(Please note that weapon damage factors are nowhere near what I would consider balanced, so please don't take that into account for the time being)

[Rithiel]

So, I think you said that when they press, the attacker will be in roundtime for the length of time that I can't move out of melee. I didn't think this was the case, so I tested it, and I got attacked by a single attacker during the time that I couldn't move to ranged position because of a press. So please clarify if it's a bug or not.

[Rias]

When pressed, you'll be pressed for the same amount of time as the press attack. So if the critter's Press attack on you gives them 5 seconds of roundtime, you'll be pressed for 5 seconds. Considering the speediness of the computer, I can see how they'd attack again in the instant they're out of roundtime, before a player manages to type in the command to get back to Ranged position.

Keep in mind that the idea of the Press is, after all, to prevent someone from getting away so that the attacker can make another attack.

So far in my testing with ranged, I've found it to be a little more annoying in that I have to switch combat positions a lot and the occasional waiting out of a Press, but much safer. I've lasted much longer before having to run back to the infirmary to be healed. Particularly in the Robbers' Camp, where the robbers are wielding deadlier weapons than the scarecrows and their farming gear. Usually I only last a minute or two out in Robbers' Camp due to multiple hits from daggers and big hits from greatswords, but considering how often I was able to avoid attacks at Ranged distance, I lasted much longer than when I was out there with my ball-and-chain at Engage position.

There were several times I was pulled to Engage on the first attack, but there were also multiple times I managed to take out critters without ever suffering a single attack. With multiple foes, there were times I took them both out with minimal damage due to avoiding several attacks, and a time or two they Press-locked me and forced me to bust out my dagger to fight them off, which I think is acceptable. Ranged isn't meant to be "easy mode," though so far it has seemed to be considerably safer, judging by how often I have to run back to town for healing in comparison with hunting with melee weapons.

This has been only a few days of testing, so I'll continue to exclusively use ranged weapons for a while yet, and then switch back to melee to better feel the difference.

I'll note that the addition of the shortbow, which fires in 4 seconds but does less damage, has been nice, as I've been able to fire more shots between enemy attacks, thus getting more shots off before getting pulled into Engage position.