Balancing Tumble

[Kismet]

It might also be worth mentioning that there is a difference between infinitely re-spawning Libiri Bladedancers and PC Duelists that are expected to take on a series of fights in a row, and the same fix may not work for both.

[Zeldryn]

Obligatory chime in to say that I’m still cool with all of this and have no problems. I’ll let you know if I feel too exploded afterward.

[Gorth]

It might also be worth mentioning that there is a difference between infinitely re-spawning Libiri Bladedancers and PC Duelists that are expected to take on a series of fights in a row, and the same fix may not work for both.

Honestly, I don't really agree. It may be for Duelist, and I don't play one at this time, but the mobs that are classed for Guardian or Dreadnought feel a lot like me.

[Rias]

It's my impression that Duelists and therefore Duelist-like mobs are specialists in one on one fighting. [...] Duelists that are good while in their zone but are not very good outside of it.

Yeah, I like that concept! They're just a little TOO good in their zone at the moment. Going up one-on-one against a Duelist and feeling like they'll have the advantage is okay; going up against a Duelist (or anyone really) one-on-one and feeling like you probably won't even land a single hit on them even if they were just standing there letting you attack them for a while, is what's not great.

Ranged being a decent counter to Duelists is absolutely worth considering for balancing them, but I don't think it being the *only* particularly effective counter is a reason to leave Duelists otherwise overtuned. It's different from something like preferring the right damage type vs heavy armor users, because those damage types are available in far more ways via a variety of skills, and even without those you can still plink away at the heavy armor character. It feels a lot worse to just not be able to touch someone at all. It's a reason we have the Risk system to prevent stealth users from just continually sniping from hiding, and why we've done various things to try and avoid chained stunlocks: "I can hit you but you can't hit me" is just not fun, regardless of whether it's a PC or an NPC.

Again, I don't want Duelists taking hits constantly. They should be dodgy and flippy and avoidy. They're just too much so at the moment.

[Vazbol]

one of the things I noticed is that we're referring to ranged attacks as a vulnerability. All that is doing is forcing a tumbly mobile into a position where they have to use the same combat rolls as everyone else, including other light armored characters like nightblades, some marauders and flavors of adventurers and spellcasters. In the duelist case, yes a stealthed shot to the leg will mess up a duelist, that pretty much can wreck every character, including heavy armored ones if using a high damage ranged puncturing weapon.

Even if you put tumble on a longer cooldown, it's still a major advantage over anyone else who doesn't have it. You get to say no to one combat round with a roll heavily weighted in your favor if you're not punching way above your weight class every 10-15 seconds. Also, I'm starting to suspect the claims about light armor leaving one very vulnerable might just be people remembering the exceptionally unlucky rolls. I've been spending days being pelted by arrows with infested using longbows with 1 reroll always on their attack, along with being approached by other melee mobiles. I am not that above the hostiles, but I've been able to take a lot of punishment before needing to be bandaged while in leather armor. And I'm just surviving on morale rerolls. I have seen a duelist being attacked by multiple mobs for over 20 minutes without being hit once. The few hits that got through had to contend with cloak parry. And the fewer hits that got past that after 20 minutes had to contend with far too many defensive rerolls. And even fewer hits that did hit barely did any damage.

...This is while they wore no armor and fell asleep at the keyboard. Of course, falling asleep and not reacting to that lucky series of bonks to the chest does kill anyone, but that nearly took half an hour of straight fighting to do. I don't think there's any other spec that can go afk until nearly an idle timeout and survive when three mobiles are on them.


If anyone with tumble can keep their normal combat defenses up and we finally get some access to healing, I imagine tumbler characters might see less of a need to use up their supplies or see a healer than non-tumblers, even with a nerf.

having a very small chance to take a large hit should not justify having a setup that doesn't let the other party even touch you. Just getting those windows of saying no on a reasonable cooldown stil puts the ball in your court.

[Kismet]

I have seen a duelist being attacked by multiple mobs for over 20 minutes without being hit once. The few hits that got through had to contend with cloak parry. And the fewer hits that got past that after 20 minutes had to contend with far too many defensive rerolls. And even fewer hits that did hit barely did any damage.

I'm not sure of all the factors at play here, but I'll say that this does not match my experience. From that I've seen, multiple enemies overwhelm Tumble very quickly and CA bonuses are negated by Flanking, and when I get hit, it can be for up to 25-40 damage for mobs at equal or slightly higher skill level.

Also, I've found cloak parry as a defense unreliable and don't really see it all that often so the talk of it being a constant trigger is confusing to me. Maybe I'm ripping up my cloak too fast with the additional stagger trigger ability.

[Gorth]

Something that I've noticed... I'm pretty sure Tumble isn't affected by Armor Hindrance. That might go a long way, honestly. Or at least, part of the way.