The Major Changes

[Fayne]

So I'm guessing my satchel-full of battle-kittens is getting a 'No' then?

[baerden]

So, now that I've had a few positive posts to brighten my mood, here is a real stinker. Take it with a grain of salt, imagine an old man, so angry its comical. Thats how I read it. Anyways, its not meant to offend. And I probably wont really scalp you..

Baerden's Grievance

You may, or may not, be aware of the fact that I have not been actively playing. Well, there's a reason. I have tried to keep Baerdens actions IC, but I feel that at this point, its time to address them as a player.

I have tried on multiple occasions to npcmail Jacob to discuss two separate incidents. I dont know if the npcmail command wasn't working right due to the post office change in the chapterhouse, or what. But I digress.

ANY INFORMATION GLEANED BEYOND THIS POINT IS OOC AND IF YOU ACT LIKE YOUR CHARACTER KNOWS IT MAGICALLY YOU ARE A POOBUTT AND YOU CANT THINK TOO GOOD

Baerden's character is pretty simple. He's a Fasa. He's comfortable in the outdoors, yet he understands the need for some industry. Every creature of nature including humans have some sort of industry needed to propagate and he sees the fanatical idea that all industry is harmful is for city dwellers and wanabe boyscouts who don't under stand the give and take necessary to survive. He does not chide the beaver for building their dams, destroying groves, or the termite, or the wolf who greedily slays as many deer to glut on before the winter bleak times. He knows that in time, the Gaea reclaims all. And so he is greatly irritated by people who assume it is his job to stop the natural way of the human. Baerden is not interested in destroying cities, and he is not interested in saving ALL wildlife. Some wildlife must die so that others may live on and some wildlife must be slain in great numbers due to the imbalance they cause due to a lack of predators. Baerden is in all ways, concerned with the balance between fauna in the Gaea, the Gaea itself, and Humans, whom are too just fauna in the Gaea.

It irritates me to no end, to have some upstart player lecturing me on what I should and should not do in 'defense' of the Gaea, or chastizing me for not being as fanatical as the Dunwyr (Hint: We shouldn't be.) in 'protecting' the Gaea. On an OOC note, I'm a rural missouri man. I am 1/8 blackfoot Native American, my grandmother is half, and I've been on loooong walks in the woods with Wise Old Yes'Mam. The idea that avoiding interacting or using natures bounty in anyway to not upset the 'Gaea' is the most perplexing thing I've ever heard of. It is literally ass backwards, son. It is through its REGULAR USAGE, famiiarities are formed, awareness for conservation and controlling numbers to strengthen herd health, other Farmers Almanac crap, invasive species identification and SOP, felling live timber and clearing under brush to limit forest fire potential.. all that stuff that teaches you what is, and what is not acceptable. The mild usage of trees being felled in Clok by newbies is not going to deforest anywhere, anytime soon. If you could tally the amount of trees felled in the game I bet it wouldnt even dent the treeline on my measley ten acres.

So, I just take great offense to the random mechanic that equates ANY use with a chance to harm the Gaea, and I think its overboard and would give impressionable kids (and stupid hipster city adults) who might play this game the idea that avoiding nature is preferable to disturbing it in anyway. Furthermore it chaps my ass to be expected to go out and respond in character to something I find personally offensive and damaging to society.

And for this, I will find out who coded this, I will fucking tomahawk you, scalp your goddamn head, and use it as a furry little coaster for my coffee mug to rest upon for many moons. Seriously. Its not cool.

This is my biggest issue right now.

Onwards. So I was involved in an RP event in which a member of the Utasa made a mistake and ended up infesting a home in an otherwise clean hamlet, mistakes happen, I dont blame the character. After expunging the offending fungus with fire, Baerden was ordered to put the lives of the people in the hamlet at risk, the guilds integrity , the possibility of another outbreak, and most important of all, he could not properly inform others of a mistake that easily spreads the fungus that they might avoid if only warned beforehand because he could not disclose to the general public of how it happened because the Utasa leadership involved failed to realize all these things and put their need to avoid responsibility, blame, and place Utasa branch secrecy as a priority over the broader goal of stopping the Resen. This is in direct conflict with Tse Gaiyan's code of conduct. If that fungus had not been fully destroyed, the hamlet people would be infected before they knew it. If some random witness could testify to the actual events, then any integrity you thought you would save, you have now lost it along with any future expectation of honesty. I understand Utasa's need for secrecy, but that should never override our prime directive, especially when the motivation is to avoid responsibility, and in doing so put people, the battle with the Resen and the Chapter at such great risk in trade.... for such a redeemable act in the eyes of the public as admitting ones mistakes and with that a useful warning. I recall responsibility inscribed somewhere...

Did it wear off with all the new changes then?

So, after hitting a brick wall trying to resolve this in an IC manner, trying to gather support by players, I gave up. No one wanted to listen, and it was such a simple concept that we all learn as children about claiming responsibility and the possible consequences for not doing so.



STARES AT ALL OF YOU IN A VERY DISAPOINTED MANNER AND TAKES OFF HIS BELT

[Kiyaani]

Ok, so, I didn't read it, but you know you can send private emails to gurus right?

[baerden]

Ok cool so readings not your thing. Thanks for the comment, I appreciate your suggestion but I did indeed intend for this to be viewable for everyone.

[Kiyaani]

Then don't call people poobutts for reading past into what's supposed to be IC *and then likely taking that IC*?

*For clarity - I read up to the part where you said reading into this and taking it IC would be bad. Seems like you don't want people having separation issues which I can understand. I don't feel I do, but I decided to respect that choice and not read further. Hence, my suggestion to take it to the gurus and not post IC info OOCly.*

I'm sorry if you felt that was cause for being antagonistic or that it somehow made it appropriate for you to take personal digs at me over nothing.

Since you clearly actually DO want people to read it and just be mature - something you're opting out of, it seems - then I too agree with many of your points. What I don't agree with is your wording, threats or overall childishness. It's not funny.

You have good ideas. Make a constructive post and it's a lot more likely to succeed. And if you want IC kept IC, don't post it. There are ways you could have suggested changes without citing specific incidents or, as I said before, you could have emailed the guru.

[baerden]

Then don't call people poobutts for reading past into what's supposed to be OOC?

I didn't. You must have not read what I wrote. Clearly, since you stated you didn't read it before you commented. Perhaps you should read it again to further hone your reading comprehension? I am only here to help you, help yourself.

[Makkah]

So, now that I've had a few positive posts to brighten my mood, here is a real stinker. Take it with a grain of salt, imagine an old man, so angry its comical. Thats how I read it. Anyways, its not meant to offend. And I probably wont really scalp you..

Baerden's Grievance

While you make some good points in there, you're not gonna get anywhere hijacking a thread and acting like an ass. Come on, man.

[Laroremas]

Some wildlife must die so that others may live on and some wildlife must be slain in great numbers due to the imbalance they cause due to a lack of predators. Baerden is in all ways, concerned with the balance between fauna in the Gaea, the Gaea itself, and Humans, whom are too just fauna in the Gaea.

This is a very good point and probably the best argument for these alerts to not happen randomly. I do have a "however" to this that will be included a bit later.

It irritates me to no end, to have some upstart player lecturing me on what I should and should not do in 'defense' of the Gaea, or chastizing me for not being as fanatical as the Dunwyr...

By the way this is written it sounds as though it irritates you, the player of Baerden, that a new player may have some misconception or misunderstanding about their guild's purpose. Does Baerden share this sentiment?

Related, based on this very long post you've written I think that Baerden would be a very good candidate to teach them right from wrong in this instance. If you find that you receive a great deal of resistance in this regard, I would personally just keep preaching the dogma you've illustrated here (because it sounds pretty much spot on to ME) though I do understand if it is not enjoyable for you to possess and propagate an unpopular opinion, so I don't blame you for not playing as much.

Just consider that perhaps any lack of GM response has been unintentional or that perhaps they felt no intervention was really necessary on that front. As a disclaimer, I am not wholly appraised of Baerden's guild's roleplay so my apologies if I'm misunderstanding anything up until this point.

The mild usage of trees being felled in Clok by newbies is not going to deforest anywhere, anytime soon. If you could tally the amount of trees felled in the game I bet it wouldnt even dent the treeline on my measley ten acres.

I've always felt the same way. It is a bit silly in the grand scope of things.

So, I just take great offense to the random mechanic that equates ANY use with a chance to harm the Gaea, and I think its overboard and would give impressionable kids (and stupid hipster city adults) who might play this game the idea that avoiding nature is preferable to disturbing it in anyway. Furthermore it chaps my ass to be expected to go out and respond in character to something I find personally offensive and damaging to society.

First, calm down. You shouldn't be getting upset about something like this because it is indeed a game and while the mechanic itself isn't perfect, you shouldn't feel anywhere remotely offended or angry that it exists. It isn't like it was written specifically to make your game time not enjoyable after all.

And for this, I will find out who coded this, I will fucking tomahawk you, scalp your goddamn head, and use it as a furry little coaster for my coffee mug to rest upon for many moons. Seriously. Its not cool.

Just relax, man. You've made some really good points so far and this kind of undermines everything you've said up until this point. You were right in taking a breather from the game.

So, after hitting a brick wall trying to resolve this in an IC manner, trying to gather support by players, I gave up. No one wanted to listen, and it was such a simple concept that we all learn as children about claiming responsibility and the possible consequences for not doing so.

Did you give up, or did Baerden give up? I wouldn't give up. It sounds frustrating but it has the potential to breed actual substantial change. I would recommend giving it another shot after you've apologized for pretty much straight up threatening the people who work on this game for free. (even if you threw that disclaimer in there)

I LIKE YOU, BAERDEN. PLEASE DON'T TOMAHAWK ANYBODY.

[baerden]

Well my apologies makkah but I thought it was on topic. These issues are a result to the changes. That I will say thete were changes for great improvement in some areas, livible downgrades, and unplayable for me the change in overall attitude. I feel like baerdens can't be Bearden and is ostracized for not jumping on the new 007 the gaiyan.

[baerden]

Lorrieass, its meant to be tongue and cheek, but it really does offend me. I won't go into detail. I don't expect any of this to be rushed for my tender sensibilities, I just thought I would vent, and maybe get a laugh.

And use colorful words to express my self.

[Laroremas]

Laroremas, its meant to be tongue and cheek, but it really does offend me. I won't go into detail. I don't expect any of this to be rushed for my tender sensibilities, I just thought I would vent, and maybe get a laugh.

And use colorful words to express my self.

I laughed, for what it's worth.

[Rias]

Most of this is out of my jurisdiction so to speak, but I'll make two comments.

1) Go Dunwyr! Wooooo! Tse Gaiyan wish they could be so hardcore! (Dunwyr are supposed to be overboard fanatical)
2) The Gaea distress thing has been on the re-evaluate docket for a long time, now (not that it'll go away, but that aspects of it may change). That said, many a wise and aged druid might respond to comments that the Gaea is overly-touchy thusly: "A mosquito bite isn't going cause any lasting harm, but you'll still occasionally swear over the discomfort one causes." How druids respond to the distress they sense is up to them. It's not specifically a call to arms, or a demand that something be done - you're just feeling some vague, foreign sense of distress through your druidic connection. Is it the Gaea crying out in agony? Is it a tree's way of saying "ouch"? Is it a Lorax-y nature spirit sending out an S.O.S. on behalf of the trees? Nobody really knows the exact interpretation, and people are free to act on their own interpretations and impulses, as well as share their beliefs and ideas. (Others are free to be annoyed or angered by the actions of the previous)

P.S. Wanting to tomahawk and scalp people is bad. Unless you're a Dunwyr, in which case: heck yes.
P.P.S. Always try to remember that if a PC is bugging you, they're not an NPC official. Some newer Tse Gaiyan have been rubbing people the wrong way, from what I've heard. I haven't watched all their interactions with Tse Gaiyan NPCs (very few, actually - I leave that stuff in Vinnie's hands) but it's possible the PC's actions are the PC's alone, and not on behalf of or in complete accordance with Tse Gaiyan creed.

[baerden]

Then don't call people poobutts for reading past into what's supposed to be IC?

*For clarity - I read up to the part where you said reading into this and taking it IC would be bad. Seems like you don't want people having separation issues which I can understand. I don't feel I do, but I decided to respect that choice and not read further. Hence, my suggestion to take it to the gurus and not post IC info OOCly.*

I'm sorry if you felt that was cause for being antagonistic or that it somehow made it appropriate for you to take personal digs at me over nothing.

Since you clearly actually DO want people to read it and just be mature - something you're opting out of, it seems - then I too agree with many of your points. What I don't agree with is your wording, threats or overall childishness. It's not funny.

You have good ideas. Make a constructive post and it's a lot more likely to succeed.

You dug first, and you attempted to invalidate my reasoning posting and then you went further off topic to defend this action by misquoting me entirely.

Kiy, I don't dislike you usually. But sometimes you're more rude and quictheo dismiss people. If you can't take a little playful digging, drop the shovel babe.

Also, I disagree with you about it being funny. I wrote it. I laughed. I read it once in Mr Magoo voice.

[baerden]

Most of this is out of my jurisdiction so to speak, but I'll make two comments.

1) Go Dunwyr! Wooooo! Tse Gaiyan wish they could be so hardcore! (Dunwyr are supposed to be overboard fanatical)
2) The Gaea distress thing has been on the re-evaluate docket for a long time, now (not that it'll go away, but that aspects of it may change). That said, many a wise and aged druid might respond to comments that the Gaea is overly-touchy thusly: "A mosquito bite isn't going cause any lasting harm, but you'll still occasionally swear over the discomfort one causes." How druids respond to the distress they sense is up to them. It's not specifically a call to arms, or a demand that something be done - you're just feeling some vague, foreign sense of distress through your druidic connection. Is it the Gaea crying out in agony? Is it a tree's way of saying "ouch"? Is it a Lorax-y nature spirit sending out an S.O.S. on behalf of the trees? Nobody really knows the exact interpretation, and people are free to act on their own interpretations and impulses, as well as share their beliefs and ideas. (Others are free to be annoyed or angered by the actions of the previous)

P.S. Wanting to tomahawk and scalp people is bad. Unless you're a Dunwyr, in which case: heck yes.
P.P.S. Always try to remember that if a PC is bugging you, they're not an NPC official. Some newer Tse Gaiyan have been rubbing people the wrong way, from what I've heard. I haven't watched all their interactions with Tse Gaiyan NPCs (very few, actually - I leave that stuff in Vinnie's hands) but it's possible the PC's actions are the PC's alone, and not on behalf of or in complete accordance with Tse Gaiyan creed.

You must have missed the part about me being native American. I have my tribal colors and tomahawk on the wall just over my head. Antwas, I'm done here. You all have a good one.

[baerden]

Oh, I will respond to your questions tomorrow lloremas they are relevant, but I am hard to type on my phone. I will say I was told that if i didnt like the deciscion then I could take my happy ass elsewhere. So. Thumbsup

[Makkah]

Then don't call people poobutts for reading past into what's supposed to be IC?

*For clarity - I read up to the part where you said reading into this and taking it IC would be bad. Seems like you don't want people having separation issues which I can understand. I don't feel I do, but I decided to respect that choice and not read further. Hence, my suggestion to take it to the gurus and not post IC info OOCly.*

I'm sorry if you felt that was cause for being antagonistic or that it somehow made it appropriate for you to take personal digs at me over nothing.

Since you clearly actually DO want people to read it and just be mature - something you're opting out of, it seems - then I too agree with many of your points. What I don't agree with is your wording, threats or overall childishness. It's not funny.

You have good ideas. Make a constructive post and it's a lot more likely to succeed.

You dug first, and you attempted to invalidate my reasoning posting and then you went further off topic to defend this action by misquoting me entirely.

Kiy, I don't dislike you usually. But sometimes you're more rude and quictheo dismiss people. If you can't take a little playful digging, drop the shovel babe.

Also, I disagree with you about it being funny. I wrote it. I laughed. I read it once in Mr Magoo voice.

Go sleep it off, dude. I think Kiya's worry was about how you were addressing things, esp. re: GMs. So, calm it on down and have a good evening.

[sona]

1) I laughed, figuring the tone was tongue in cheek
2) I think Rias's 2) makes total sense. I don't know the Gaea sense myself, but many jump at the first hint of Gaea-distress as, "I AM SUFFERING THE BIG HURTY SUFFERING, I WILL FIND YOU AND HURT YOU, YOU BETTER BE GONE BEFORE I HURT YOU"
3) I think/thought Baerden's character was pretty cool IC, and hoped to see more of him.

[blindndangerous]

From the small amount that my udemi has interacted with Baerdan I too liked him ic. The gaea thing has been on the todo list for a while now, so just let it go and things will change. I am not one to immediately grab my bow and charge after anyone if they anger the gaea as most of the time they don't even know that they're doing it.
Also, I laughed as well.

[Vinz]

Well, fun thing to wake up to at 5am.

So, few things -

1) The letter was received (Though the first time i wasn't, which was totally weird) by Baerden about the payers Dunwyr leanings. It was addressed to said player, but Baerden wasn't directly contacted about it. I guess in retrospect it look as if i was ignoring him, my apologize.

2) Your being upset with the Utasa over this matter didn't specifically explain the danger the information you hand. Your hoping to bring awareness to the situation, in which someone had done something on accident that others would wish to do on purpose.

3) The Utasa do not run the Tse Gaiyan (though until i took over Guruship, they kind of did). The leader of this chapterhouse has been revealed now and leadership now falls between a council lead by a druid. The things we miss while we are away.

4) The Mechanics your speaking about are a GAME and thus idealism about things of the natural order will have to be suspended because your not on Earth as you know it. I understand now that it upsets you, and the mechanic is actually getting fine tuned (As per other stuff that your character was actually directly being involved in). I don't like the way that the system is now (Nor does Rias, as he had explained above) it will be changed.

5) A lot of your beef is that you were being listened too. About half of the suggestions you made for chapter house have been put into effect (Because they were GOOD ideas.) Of the people being listened too, you were actually pretty high on that list. We disagree about how the Utasa should be run and as it stands now, pretty much EVERYONE who's not an Utasa disagrees with them. Its apparently of part of their charm at this point.

6) I will sit down and write out a very LARGE explanation of the whys and hows the government work for the Tse Gaiyan but i had been told so many times by older players that they had been in the Tse Gaiyan forever and understood its ways. You may understand now why i am so confused by people being confused about how specific members see the world. I will rectify this mistake and make it plain form and it can even be discussed.

I'm open for discussion on just about anything, I however don't play the "Well if this change doesn't happen I'll quit" game as several people have threaten since I took over the guruship. Looking back at it all, I haven't actually changed any aspect of how the organization functions or the beliefs that they hold. However for your benefit i will retrace my steps to ensure I haven't and am not to proud to admit if i have over stepped myself in my actions. We all make mistakes, i tend to make them often.

Hopefully this will clear this up and soothe tempers with explanations.

I will do my best to produce a document soon so we can discuss it,

-Vinz

[Lysse]

So, this will be relatively short. I think it's worth pointing out though, that I've never on an OOC level expected Tse Gaiyan to behave in a manner similar to Lysse. However, her mission statement incorporates things that the Tse Gaiyan one does not. I don't want to get into specifics (as it isn't my place), but despite what Lysse DOES share about the Dunwyr, she by far doesn't share everything. And she is going to expect people that can Commune actively to be as disgusted as she is, with industry and transgressions. But as a player, I'm not bothered one way or the other (unless a Druid was clearcutting, then I'd probably write to the GMs about it). It'd be nice if more people could keep their IC and OOC beliefs separate.


More on topic, I like the changes with Tse Gaiyan. It feels, at least from an outsider's perspective, like Tse Gaiyan is a more robust, more cohesive organization. I love seeing the active (and sometimes conflicted) Druids about, and it's great to see that the Udemi and Utasa are getting a lot more visible support from the GMs. If I were going to play an alt, I'd be highly tempted to roll an Utasa over any other guild.

[Fayne]

Okay, so my response is concerning everyone's claim that Tse Gaiyan seems like a totally different oragization now with a different personality and yada yada yada. See, the main difference between now and then is that we have a LOT of active Utasa now, whereas we've never had very many Utasa play for more than a week or two in the past. They've become more fun to play, more attractive to join, and players are keeping their Utasa characters around. As a result, the GMs are able to be more active with the Utasa, and it's almost like we are getting to see the Utasa for the first time. For AGES it seemed like the only Tse Gaiyan members around were Udemi, and a LOT of Udemi at that.

In fact, I want to just take a second and congratulate Vinz on beinag able to take control of what seems to me to be the single largest organization in the game as far as active PCs go. I believe most days there can be at least 4 or 5 Tse Gaiyan on, and when all of us are on over the weekends, I think our numbers are now near 10 or even more, and that's with a player-base of about 40 or 50 people who regularly play. So Vinz, congrats on doing suvh a great job so far, because if you had failed, it would have failed in a big way, and instead you caused our numbers to GROW.

Now, back to what I was saying before: The Utasa have pretty much only just recently "woken up" in a sense, and now we players actually get to see who they are, how they behave, this and that. Yes, I realize there have been Utasa around in the past, and they have done some pretty major things, but they haven't been around in the numbers we've had lately. There are at least two Utasa on most times, and I think we have about 4 total. Udemi still outnumber them to my knowledge, but we keep getting newbies, and I know oldbies are interested as well, so maybe we'll get more soon. But the fact is, Utasa were easily overlooked 99% of the time in the past. It was like every now and then, someone would mention them as a footnote, and as an Udemi it was like the Utasa were simply mentioned to explain our magical knowledge of certain things.Now that they're around all the time, they are a major factor in everything Tse Gaiyan does, as they should have from the very beginning but have never really had the ability to do. In fact, I think what we are all complaining about is the way the Utasa have always been, which is about to change. As Vinz said, the Utasa kinda did run the organization previously, but now we've recently come under new leadership, and I think things are about to change.

And Vinz brought up something that I hadn't really thought about before. The new Tse Gaiyan members have really had me frustrated lately. I've been playing Fayne as a sort of "Drayla 2.0" in that I don't really have to think "How would Fayne react to tjis? What would she want to do?" Instead, I can play her how I honestly feel about situations, because it fits who she is. I'm an Udemi at heart I guess. Hehe. Anyway, playing her this way, I find myself liking the other members of Tse Gaiyan, but at the same time, I am so frustrated with interacting with them at times thaf I can't stand it. And you know, I really can't even say what it is that causes it. It's nothing they're particularly doing or anything. I think just having been around longer, like Baerden, and not having been around lately has caused the Udemi to change slightly over time, and here I am stuck somewhere between Lacie and Baerden over here, and the others over there. I guess if I try to interact with the others a bit more and give it time, things won't be as bad, but for now, just something I have to deal with. That being said, I really do enjoy all of you, even if you guys don't even know my older character and still think I'm some know-it-all newbie. Hehe

[Utasa Agent 0102]

I hope this is the correct forum to post feedback and suggestions about the recent changes. From what I have read so far it looks like the posts are getting a little heated.

I am a old player who has an Utasa from way back when. I do not like others knowing who I am, so please forgive me for posting under this name. I have taken some time to look over and play with the recent changes and I will agree that our past skill set was a bit too overpowered. Also wavebending did feel a bit out of place with the rest of the world. I like the new tools but feel a few things could be improved.

#1. Would our GMs consider changing our skill/tool replacement items store into a guild point store? Right now the items in question can be very expensive if you would like to hold more than one and I do miss the utility of wavebending in that I could cast it over and over without having to spend riln.

#2 I was comparing our last skill set with our current one and I can see how we might be able to squeeze in a few more abilities. Would the Utasa Guru be open to any suggestions? If so, may I suggest adding some sort of disabling tactic such as a stun or borrowing from another guild and being able to sap someone?

[Vinz]

I had been considering making it a guild point shop and may make some changes in that direction for sure.

There will be a few more abilities added once we can get some coding time

[blindndangerous]

Sounds good, and can't wait to see what you guys come up with.

[Lavi]

I just got some time to read this whole post and I have a few thoughts. I agree that the Gaea is a bit too touchy. As for some of the ways some characters act, I try to keep in mind that some characters are going to be naturally grumpy, know it alls, or jerks, but I think in a way it's nice. I see a lot of character personalities. This post to me makes it seems like a character's personality, thoughts, reactions, and methods of doing anything is an OOC thing which assumes they do not know the difference between IC and OOC. My character was involved in a lot of the events recently, and I've had to stop playing him as I usually would because of things like this post. Because it's something that has now been taken OOC, which makes me sad.

On to other things. Fayne, you generate so much RP it's amazing just by playing a character who sometimes gets a negative response. I think you are doing a great job, I don't think you are being an oldby or anything, I think I've been around formaybe a few months less than you have, but I think it's great you have a different type of character, so don't feel like you're pushing people away, maybe your character is pushing people away, but I think you are really awesome for doing that.

All and I love my Utasa and don't have any complaints other than the things the Utasa Agent 012 said. But it'll take some time. Thanks Vinz for all the work you are doing.