Stealth Mounts?

Post by **Rias** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:53 pm

Sorry guys, but I'm still not sold on stealth mounts.

Riding a mount should decrease dodge, but increase changes of staying at ranged/avoid. If this isn't currently the case, I'll fix it.

Riding a mount increases your accuracy, which is very handy and a substantial bonus. This is increased by a flat amount based on skill, which means less as numbers get higher. Stealth reduces a target's defenses, making them depend on another roll (stealth vs perception) and requiring an additional defense. Stealth attacks decrease a target's defense by a percentage, down to 0%. A stealthy character with pitiful combat skills could reduce an "epic" combatant's defense from 9,999,999,999 to 0, based on stealth alone.

Both are highly useful and effective combat aids. They're exclusive to each other. They were not designed specifically to balance each other out, and they both have differing uses and levels of effectiveness in different situations. I'm not going to go out of my way to re-evaluate mounts every time stealth is adjusted, and vice-versa. If there's a problem with stealth, I'll work on stealth. If there's a problem with mounts, I'll work on mounts. Pointing at one to ask for changes to the other isn't going to move me to make any changes, I'm afraid.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:12 pm

I really love it when people quote me completely out of context. Landion, the comment regarding everything not being logical was in reference to mounts providing a bonus to dodge and general defense and was not an attempt to convince you to implement stealth mounts.

It's also nice when you're so definitive. No point in discussing things I suppose.

Again, I get it. No stealth mounts.

Alright.... so pointing at mounts. Are they currently providing a bonus to dodge?

Also, if mounted people have an easier time staying in avoid or ranged, wouldn't I have an easier time seeing their trajectory as they charge at me and thus be able to avoid them easier?

rhunara · Post by **rhunara** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:28 pm

[quote=Landion][quote=Acarin]
Not everything in this game is fully logical (Sorry Rias), partly due to alpha and partly due to it being impossible to have everything perfectly logical.
[/quote]

This doesn't justify adding new and totally illogical aspects.
[/quote]

Balance issues aside (Rias' points seem pretty strong), this seems disingenuous. Did you read the part about there already existing giant wolves that people ride?

Jaren · Post by **Jaren** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:40 pm

Can I ride on peoples shoulders while they are stealthed?

Also here: Jaren (riding on the shoulders of an Acarin)

Kiyaani · Post by **Kiyaani** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:47 pm

Nether-wrapped, clockwork hover-chairs. We can use them to approach in stealth, dismount in stealth, but not charge. FIXED!

Xzean · Post by **Xzean** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:20 pm

Acarin's final form!

Post by **Lun** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:35 am

Guys, it's a multiplayer game. I've been holding myself back because I know there'll be more backlash for saying anything else, but the fact of the matter is that you're not going to be a one man army. You're saying "Mounted people obtain bonuses I can't have that don't pertain to my guild abilities" and "Stealth can't do anything to mounted people!"

I understand. But if a situation like so arises, perhaps you can find yourself... a group. Or another member. Increase community assistance. Is that templar annoying you? Gank him with someone!

Stealthed mounts just make me think of giant gorilla mounts. Swinging through the trees on vines of sneakyness. Pets that are stealthy might be interesting, but deserves it's own topic. From the way I see it, Stealth is already OP. With high enough stealth, I can't ever see the person, regardless of how much I search for you. You should know that, Acarin. A mounted person can never be stealthed, and as such, has none of that "Hey, there's no one in the room" ambush scenario. Certainly they can charge you, but with the new grapple, you can knock them off the horse and take them in combat.

I have no idea how Claw abilities are working right now. I assume with your orb and abilities, you can break engagement and return to darkness and just slit necks like a bawss.

Stealth mounts... Just for the sake of reality... I'll have to put my opinion out there and say no. I would like a gigant gorilla mount that I could sneak around in forests with, or a bison that could just bumrush everything on the plains or roads, but that's not going to happen without lots of coaxing and RPing and a drunk GM. Mostly the drunk GM.

It'll probably turn into a bunny randomly and eat me.

EDIT:
Anyway, slow me is slow. I can see the topic debate is over, and we all got our brain juices working. See you all in game!

On a side note, I keep having nightmares that I type things to say while playing Arrak. Bleh.

And yeah. I posted all this so I could write about giant gorilla mounts. Deal with it.

Landion · Post by **Landion** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:41 am

I love bison. Just putting that out there.

Evelyn · Post by **Evelyn** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:01 pm

I don't think being mounted gives you a boost to dodge, I haven't noticed one if so. Also bison are yummy.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:34 pm

[quote=Evelyn]I don't think being mounted gives you a boost to dodge, I haven't noticed one if so. Also bison are yummy.[/quote]

Even if it doesn't give a bonus, it seems logical to me that it would be dropping it. And it does do that when I'm unarmed on a horse to the same degree as it drops my parry (since I am unarmed on a untrained mount with low riding skill). I assume that the dodge bonus is currently scaling with the rest of defenses. Could be wrong about that, but I do think that both armor and mounts should significantly drop dodge.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:53 pm

You shoot at a man on foot, unless he's bobbing and weaving - you're probably going to hit him.

Shoot at the same man when he's on a horse, riding away from you? Man I hope you've been practicing, it's not going to be easy.

Why in the world would it be easier to hit someone when they're on a horse?

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:32 pm

If their horse is running away that's an entirely different story. If they're engaged in melee or even in an "avoid" range it would be much easier because horses only really have one direction of movement (forward) and ARE COMPLETELY INCAPABLE OF DODGING or moving out of the way. Even a well trained combat mount isn't all that maneuverable. Since the rider is on top of the horse, he/she is also restricted in mobility, and will likely be unable to move out of the way.

There's a huge difference between maneuverability/being able to dodge (which is characterized by rapid changes in direction of movement) and moving quickly at a constant rate (which actually allows for easier tracking due to a somewhat fixed course).

If a man is on foot and you shoot at him, he can react and get out of the way as long as he sees it coming. If you shoot at a man on a horse, unless that horse is far away and running farther, you're probably going to hit him as long as you take the fact that he is moving into account.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:34 pm

I can see someone wounding a horse, and having the horse have it's dodge be lower. If they're trying to wound the rider and they're not using a large weapon...I still don't see why dodge should be lower.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:53 pm

I wouldn't think the size of the weapon would have much to do with the rider's ability to dodge (unless it's weighing them down). It would definitely effect their ability to parry as they're elevated.

Lae, I think dodge should be reduced on a mount regardless of weapon size or other contributing factors for the previously stated reasons. Think of a root type effect. The rider is essentially rooted to the back of a horse.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:57 pm

I dunno, if I'm charging you and you have a dagger, you are a lot less likely to hit me than if you had a maul. (You could miss and hit the horse, which again is something that could be addressed) I can see if someone is charging you and you have a big hammer, you're going to have a bigger chance to hit someone and/or knock them off their horse.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:04 pm

[quote=Lae]I dunno, if I'm charging you and you have a dagger, you are a lot less likely to hit me than if you had a maul. (You could miss and hit the horse, which again is something that could be addressed) I can see if someone is charging you and you have a big hammer, you're going to have a bigger chance to hit someone and/or knock them off their horse.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.[/quote]

I do agree with you to some degree that it would be more likely to hit someone with a larger weapon if you were on the ground just due to reach. This is why cthroat and a few other abilities are gimped when someone rides a mount. You just don't have the reach.

I'm talking about the rider's ability to dodge. They might have an easier time parrying with their large weapon, but wouldn't be able to move enough to get out of the way of something coming directly at them (regardless of size). If they failed to block or parry, it's a pretty safe bet that they'd get hit.

Just in case you still don't see the point I'm trying to make, if you a watch video with someone fighting on horseback in melee range, they are NOT getting out of the way. They are parrying/blocking.