Geomancy

KianTheArcher · Post by **KianTheArcher** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:07 am

I wasn't able to find anything specific on this topic, and it's something that's been nagging at me for a couple of days now.

I just recently read that Elemancy, in general, involves both sheer force of will coupled with complex calculations, and that makes sense to me since so much of "magic" discussions seems to be about the science behind it.

However, I was wondering how geomancy worked, exactly. By this, I mean how does the (for instance) "geo shield" function? How do the rocks stay "in orbit" around the geomancy? Is it applying a gravitational force to the stones, or is it a magnetic effect?

Not exactly a huge question, it's just something that came to mind.

Isiaa · Post by **Isiaa** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:12 am

It would have to be gravitational as magnetic would not affect every piece of earth in the shield.

Isiaa · Post by **Isiaa** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:24 am

The geomancer conjures the earth and form a complex magical/gravitation link with it so as to stop the conjured stones from being drawn by the stronger gravitational forces around him. He causes the rocks to speed up as well so that at least some of the energy comes from the conjured earth itself.

Post by **Rias** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:33 am

All elemancy is able to move its associated elemental matter through space (limited as normal by physical obstructions, as mentioned elsewhere). How this is accomplished exactly, I really couldn't tell you at the moment.

We'll probably have to chalk it up to a unique type of field or energy that elemancers can wield that effects elemental matter, the degree of effectiveness and precision control based largely on the purity of the matter involved. I'm sure I'll be up all night thinking about it now.

However it works, structuring paths and patterns (such as the Shield Pattern's ellipsoid shape) requires calculation, rather than simply thinking "I want a field that surrounds me". It still has to fight things like gravity, momentum, and so forth, so using it to, say, lift a heavy rock would be more strenuous than lifting a pebble. Moving said rock through a windy area would be more strenuous than moving the rock through an area where there was no wind resistance.

These principles would apply to all elements, not just earth.

Reynard · Post by **Reynard** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:34 am

It would need to be non-gravitational. Gravity is seriously one of the weakest forces in existence. My guess? Whatever force geomancers use to propel earthbolts is being used to keep the shield in orbit. So.... magic. That answer would feel like less of a copout if I could draw you a force diagram.

edited to add:
Rias keeps stealing my thunder. =P
I'll see about drawing some diagrams when I get home.

Post by **Rias** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:40 am

Heh heh. Sorry, Reynard. Sounds like we're once again getting to a place where my sub-layman scientific knowledge is going to need some serious backup.

KianTheArcher · Post by **KianTheArcher** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:00 pm

I was just curious! I can chalk up the creation/manipulation of the other elements (to a degree) to just working. But the idea, for some reason, as rocks floating about made me think "How exactly do they stay up there?"

Personally, I like the idea of a unique energy field or force being the case for why elemancy works.

Post by **Rias** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:09 pm

It doesn't do much to explain it, but I'll point out that it requires constant effort and energy on the part of the elemancer to maintain. So it's not like you cast the spell, and then the effect maintains itself somehow, with the rocks somehow "naturally" floating around like that while you concentrate on other things. The channeler is constantly maintaining the floaty rocks. If he loses or releases any of the required channels, the rocks will fall to the ground and poof into dust, the pattern no longer being actively maintained.

And no need to apologize, Kian. I enjoy thinking this type of stuff out and trying to make the world, including its "magic", make as much sense as possible.

KianTheArcher · Post by **KianTheArcher** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:02 pm

I used to get yelled at ICly and OOCly for playing characters that rationalized magic in scientific terms, on my old MUD!

And that makes sense to me. I was just thinking it'd be nice to have a way to explain how elemancy works, in general. The idea of an energy field that elemancers can manipulate is, to my mind, the most attractive prospect.

And on the subject, have you given any thought as to the origins of Elemancy, and why Elemancers can do what they do? I had a somewhat rough idea, of Elemancy being an inborn trait which would explain why only Elemancers (and Udemi) can channel any kind of the Elements.

Post by **Rias** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:29 pm

It has always been that, technically, anyone can learn elemancy. It's just really complicated and complex, and those who do know how to use it tend to keep it to themselves and their own organizations. Can you imagine if anyone and everyone out there had access to pyromancy? Yikes. That'd be like military hand grenades being sold to the public at your local convenience store.

It requires a lot of mental acuity and the ability to maintain several trains of thought at once (to be calculating and maintaining all those different patterns!), which I suppose in some cases could be a result of someone's mind and brain being subconsciously capable, even if they don't appear to be so bright in other areas. A sort of savant thing. But savantism isn't required - anyone bright enough, with the proper mental training and discipline, can pick up on elemancy, as it requires no special powers or genes or anything like that.

Udemi have picked up the secret to aeromancy at some point, one way or another. Whether they discovered it on their own or perhaps someone who already knew aeromancy decided the Udemi could benefit from it (or joined them) hasn't been established. Air is also the least-complicated and most easily manipulated element.

Post by **Rias** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:31 pm

And poo on the people who yelled at you for trying to explain magic. It's so much more interesting when it makes sense. Not to mention, it really helps with spell design, having real laws and limitations that need to be obeyed. I never liked the mindset of "hey this would be a cool spell, ding, implemented. Don't ask how it works - it's magic!"

Reynard · Post by **Reynard** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:31 pm

I think it's the same as Dirtkick. It's not an inborn trait, but you need someone to teach you.

KianTheArcher · Post by **KianTheArcher** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:17 pm

Well, my thoughts on that were based on the fact that only certain guilds can channel anything at all. And while most people probably didn't set out and go "I think my character should be capable of channeling X", I think it might make for interesting backstory for the guilds overall, and could apply to ALL forms of channeling, including cryomancy, thaumaturgy, and nether.

Otherwise, there isn't really any IC reasoning/justification behind, say, a thief stealing Elemancer/Udemi/Utasa/Shar/Sorcery knowledge and applying it (other than they would never be able to do that). Or IC reasoning for why Nootau (who is easily a well accomplished Elemancer) cannot Wavebend.

Reynard · Post by **Reynard** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:28 pm

Except that doesn't explain why no player outside these guilds can't cast those spells.

Also, that stealing knowledge thing seems like a thing that you could theoretically do, in the same way that you could steal the knowledge needed to program in a certain language.

Nootau · Post by **Nootau** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:47 pm

A good reason for it to be limited would be not only is it hard to use styles, tactics and abilities but to change how it is used(from a Elemancer's Aeromancy style to a Udemi's style) is conceptually different to the point it become inhibiting. It is like saying 'I know how to dance, lets skip the basics' when you grew up knowing how to square dance.. only to find out that you not only need to know how to Waltz but all of the additional functions are advanced changed within the Waltz itself!

You have an option, stay the way you were and not really become a true member of the new group or go against what you know and push it all aside to learn your new calling.. throwing away your old calling.

Post by **Rias** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:16 pm

This is one of the places where we just have to accept exclusivity by design and that games are going to have limits. Only assassins can use cutthroat. Why can't a thief? Why can't a Rook? Why can't someone not in any guild? It just involves jumping out and slicing someone's throat with a sharp object.

Why can't an elemancer footstomp? Why can't a Udemi swindle? Why can't Dwaedn Wyr hamstring? Because this is a game, and certain things are simply designed with the intent to be exclusive to certain people or guilds in order to promote some specialization and uniqueness.

Lore-wise, some people join Rook Parlour in order to learn how to channel sorcery. Some people join Rook Parlour because they know how to channel sorcery. Channeling is not something completely exclusive to the guilds who focus on it - anyone can potentially learn to channel, and specially in the cases of some of the easier methods, such as sorcery or druidry, could conceivably be discovered and learned by someone on their own. Someone could learn elemancy and sorcery/cryomancy. Look at Sceptus, he managed it. He's an NPC, though, and as far as player characters and the intent of the game design goes, it's not intended to let people learn abilities and exclusive skillsets beyond their own guild's specialization.

Sorry if I totally missed the point - I'm not sure I fully understand what's being debated/proposed at this point.

KianTheArcher · Post by **KianTheArcher** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:20 pm

That's okay! No need to apologise. I just like to discuss these sorts of things, especially pertaining to the limits of magic and the like. I get the whole "exclusive by design" thing, I was just tossing out an idea that I had thought up when chatting to Nootau on Skype.

Post by **Rias** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:28 pm

Speaking of Skype, it might be fun to do a little voice chat discussion session sometime for those interested in this type of stuff.

Nootau · Post by **Nootau** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:29 pm

Akodo-Jin if you need me.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:34 pm

[quote=Rias]Speaking of Skype, it might be fun to do a little voice chat discussion session sometime for those interested in this type of stuff.[/quote]

This would be fun.

Reynard · Post by **Reynard** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:08 pm

I'd love to annoy the hell out of you guys with my abnoxious voice.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:23 pm

[quote=Reynard]I'd love to annoy the hell out of you guys with my abnoxious voice.[/quote]

How obnoxious can one voice be?

Jaster · Post by **Jaster** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:21 pm

On pyromancy: If I find a way to learn it a third time, I think I've earned it. Lol.

Reynard · Post by **Reynard** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:24 pm

No one who can hide that well should have the ability to spontaneously start fires.

Nootau · Post by **Nootau** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:22 am

If there is a sheer wall of stone, can a Geomancer focus and form nubs and foot holds to be allowed to scale the wall or will they even be able to form steps?