Upcoming: More deliberate skill advancement

[Rias]

I noticed some characters grinding the Acrobatics skill today, which was fine - they weren't doing anything wrong. It was a skill in the game and the game was giving gains for it by performing associated actions (mainly jumping from high places). But Acrobatics is a vestigial COGG skill, from a system where characters had to choose which skills they wanted to spend their limited points on. I went ahead and disabled the Acrobatics skill for now, both to prevent an unintended crossover skill that's not fully baked or even ensured to continue existing, as well as to prevent people from spending any more time grinding it when it might not be relevant in the future. (Do note that Tumble and Flip were reverted to be based on Dodge skill, not Acrobatics).

There was a similar situation with the Meditation skill somewhat recently.

The underlying issue CLOK has of "grind every skill, because why not" is still something that needs addressing, though there has been a little progress there, mostly in the crafting department. The current lazy implementation of skill gains based on any skill checks made was a simple starting point, but it continues to have unintended consequences like skills gaining too quickly, too slowly, or in situations where they shouldn't be increasing at all. What I've been putting off but really need to do is sit down and just put in deliberate skillgain instances in the code, and switch off the current lazy system of just defaulting to skillgains on any skill check that's made. It'll also allow for better determining appropriate challenge ranges based on different situations. It's just going to be tedious to implement.

I figured this all warranted a post, so here it is! Feel free to discuss, ask questions, opine, or make suggestions.

[Kismet]

Is Meditation still going to be the Resist Fear and Swamp Zombie Thoughts skill, and if not, what is?

[Ela]

I have two ideas, but the second may not directly fit the topic. Close enough to be worth mentioning, though!

I think I have a bug report in about this right now, but as a non-Artifice user, you get Artifice skill ups from watching someone else pickpocket NPCs. You also sometimes get Perception, which makes a bit more sense, but my character with the Artifice can't even use it. I don't see any harm in removing that gain from non-Artifice users.

The other bug report I have in right now is about Artifice as well. While stalking/marking an NPC as a Nightblade, you are able to open your bag or sheath and "palm get weapon" two times in the span of the mark duration. Occasionally, this will give you Artifice, though I believe it also raises Risk. It's one of those situations where you could simply macro or alias it to level up Artifice and it feels weird, but though the concept itself is neat.

[Lun]

I was wondering why I didn't seem to be gaining meditation from the brief encounters with swamp zombies I met!

I think having deliberate measured goalposts for skills and limiting them is a good idea. I'm afraid of having them all tied to limited skill points. Being a member of the Rook Parlour exposed me to 19 of the possible 21 ability points spent, and I'm petrified of trying anything new that's tied to ability points since I can't reallocate them. I hope the new system is separated from abilities, or there's something to help us flex a little out of poor decisions.

In COGG, Arcana wasn't so bad since we allocated occult mental capacity for them. Here, every ability is equally weighted, even if they're relatively utility or rarely useful.

[Dorn]

Does this mean things where Acrobatics helped with, such as landing from falls, and more specifically, from your horse, are going to change? Much like Tumble/Flip got moved away.

Any skill which provides protection vs stuns/abilities/staggers that can occur is more than just, "Train it for the sake of it."

[Adresin]

I admit, this disappoints me, perhaps bothers me, just a bit. I'll try to explain why.

I completely understand the general idea of not wanting someone to be able to get skill in anything and everything. Totally get it. Makes perfect sense for most crafts for example, among others.

I do think though, that there are a few skills that should be sort of core skills that anyone can train, if they want to put the time and effort into it. It should take intentional work and effort, but should be doable without ability gating, because these are skills applicable in situations that apply to anyone. Perception is one. Whatever can help fend off mind attacks is another, whether it's meditation or something else. Same with jumping from and climbing things. It always bothered me on cogg that things like this required those precious skill points, because raising these things doesn't give you special ability. It just helps with surviving in this dangerous world we play in. If people can train how to defend themselves by doing, why can't they do the same for these other survival things?

Note, I know that some are still like this. But I do think defending against mental attacks and learning to land properly are the same, and I'm also concerned about perception and climbing suddenly getting taken as well. Yes, people should specialize. But some things are just a matter of survival.

[Dorn]

I admit, this disappoints me, perhaps bothers me, just a bit. I'll try to explain why.

I completely understand the general idea of not wanting someone to be able to get skill in anything and everything. Totally get it. Makes perfect sense for most crafts for example, among others.

I do think though, that there are a few skills that should be sort of core skills that anyone can train, if they want to put the time and effort into it. It should take intentional work and effort, but should be doable without ability gating, because these are skills applicable in situations that apply to anyone. Perception is one. Whatever can help fend off mind attacks is another, whether it's meditation or something else. Same with jumping from and climbing things. It always bothered me on cogg that things like this required those precious skill points, because raising these things doesn't give you special ability. It just helps with surviving in this dangerous world we play in. If people can train how to defend themselves by doing, why can't they do the same for these other survival things?

Note, I know that some are still like this. But I do think defending against mental attacks and learning to land properly are the same, and I'm also concerned about perception and climbing suddenly getting taken as well. Yes, people should specialize. But some things are just a matter of survival.

I just want to say that was a fantastic post.

[Rias]

Is Meditation still going to be the Resist Fear and Swamp Zombie Thoughts skill, and if not, what is?

The Meditation skill will still exist in the way it did in CLOK1: not able to be skilled up, but still there to be potentially affected by various buffs or debuffs. I prefer the idea that mental status effects generally don't have any grindable skills contributing to either offense or defense, so they can change up the pace of encounters and alter the playing field in interesting ways across the board of potential encounters rather than being just one more thing that's skill-trained into ineffectiveness.

I'm afraid of having them all tied to limited skill points.

There's no specific plan for limited total skill points.

Being a member of the Rook Parlour exposed me to 19 of the possible 21 ability points spent

I know it's tough deciding whether or not to take all of one's specialized class/guild abilities, but that's the intent. It's nice when not everyone is the same and different characters have different capabilities. The goal has always been that there be more fun/useful abilities than any one character can take, so different characters end up taking different paths even if they're in the same guild/class.

Does this mean things where Acrobatics helped with, such as landing from falls, and more specifically, from your horse, are going to change?

Maybe! They were added in COGG specifically to give the Acrobatics skill more of a purpose and to have it feel worth spending limited points on. Skill rolls to avoid or resist damage/knockdowns from falls wasn't a thing at all in CLOK1 and I don't think we necessarily need to make these based on a grindable skill. Falling is supposed to be a bad thing once you've gotten to the point that you're doing it. Adding a little niche benefit to those who spent limited points on the niche Acrobatics skill was one thing in a limited skill system. Saying it's freely open to everyone who's willing to spend the time grinding it is another.

I do think though, that there are a few skills that should be sort of core skills that anyone can train, if they want to put the time and effort into it.

I can agree with that. I just don't think it needs to be the to point where any potential undesirable thing can be skilltrained away by every character. It's nice to have different characters with different strengths and weaknesses.

Even with our big "boss mobs" or important NPCS, we don't just give them 5000 in every single skill to try and protect them from every possible thing. I think it's more interesting to have some variance in any character's capabilities and the resulting potential strategies to be employed against them, or just seeing how they handle situations differently. I'd expect to see a difference between Sharinas and Raggni Karth trying to scale a challenging mountain (or jumping from any of its cliffs), or between Baerig and Jaclyn competing at the rodeo and how they handle being thrown from a horse.

[Mystry]

I agree with the general sentiment of the above insofar that certain skills are just kind of necessary or 'make sense' for training no matter who you are. Having played ultima way back in the day, which limited skill points thing of COGG seemed heavily based upon (disclaimer, I never played COGG extensively because I was waiting for skill trees back then so my experience with that game is limited), the system is just too restrictive for the kind of environment that I think CLOK is.

Personally, if I were designing a system in which to balance this, I would probably have different categories of skills, such as like this:
WEAPONRY
Swords
Staffs
Daggers
Axes
Armor Use
Etc, all the weapon skills, plus armor use.
ARCANE
Aeromancy
Pyromancy
Hydromancy
Geomancy
Sorcery
Cryomancy
Etc, all the arcane skills
CRAFTSMANSHIP
Tailoring
Blacksmithing
Leatherworking
Cooking
Woodworking
Etc, all the crafting skills
SURVIVAL
Swim
Climb
Forage
Dodge
Shield Use
Etc, basically all the 'common use' skills

WEAPONRY and ARCANE has 3 'master slots', CRAFTSMANSHIP has 2; any skill placed in these slots can be leveled as high as you want, and all others not in a slot cap out at something like 500. Along with that, anything in the SURVIVAL category is uncapped and just levelable as far as you want. All of this along with normal restrictions like guilds and such, so a warrior can't level arcane skills since they're not in the Elemancy college or the Rook Parlour.

So with this, if you were playing a warrior type, you could have:
Swords, Armor Use, and Axes from WEAPONRY mastered.
None from ARCANE, as it's not in an arcane using guild.
Blacksmithing and Woodworking from CRAFTSMANSHIP mastered.
And since Shield Use is SURVIVAL, it could be leveled up as far as they like along with things like climbing, swimming, and foraging. Or dodge, if they want to focus on dodge instead. Or even both.

Similarly, an Elemancer could do the following:
Staff, daggers, and armor use from WEAPONRY.
Pyromancy, Aeromancy, and Geomancy from ARCANE.
Tailoring and Cooking from CRAFTSMANSHIP.
And still have swim/climb/forage/and so forth other 'common' skills leveled highly.

At first glance, it might seem like the Elemancer is benefiting too much since he's got both weaponry and arcane; but remember that due to his guild choice, he can't really get good weapon based abilities for these weapons like the warrior can, since A. he's not in the right guild and B. he has to save his ability slots for Elemancer type abilities.

Anyway, this was all right off the top of my head so I'm sure there's a billion holes in it. But these are my musings. Hopefully they help somehow.

[Dean]

Is Meditation still going to be the Resist Fear and Swamp Zombie Thoughts skill, and if not, what is?

The Meditation skill will still exist in the way it did in CLOK1: not able to be skilled up, but still there to be potentially affected by various buffs or debuffs. I prefer the idea that mental status effects generally don't have any grindable skills contributing to either offense or defense, so they can change up the pace of encounters and alter the playing field in interesting ways across the board of potential encounters rather than being just one more thing that's skill-trained into ineffectiveness.

I've noticed the current implementation of offensive abilities resisted by Meditation - bestial roars, ghostly wails, and most notably, Words of Power cast by human/bandit mobs - can have die sides in the 400 or sometimes 600 range, depending on the mob you're fighting.

Will these mobs (and the associated Word abilities, when the Mummer's guild is reopened) be adjusted down to something close to the base 1d100 players will use for defense, if Meditation is removed as a factor entirely? If not, what strategies should players consider using when fighting these mobs that will otherwise have four- to six-time their number of die sides, when resisting effects that tend to be powerful crowd-control in nature, like roots, fear, morale loss, stunning, and mesmerization?