CLOK The Gathering July 14th 2021

[Loona]

Hello everybody,
Some of you may remember me saying that I wanted to get the players together in an OOC setting to discuss any concerns that might be held regarding conflict between players, conflict between players and GM entities, or conflict in general. Other topics will probably also come up, but for now, we’ll be aiming for next Wednesday afternoon, the 14th of July. If you have any specific questions regarding your guilds or any affiliations your characters have, feel free to post them here or send an email to support@clokmud.com so we can prepare answers ahead of time. We’ll be looking forward to seeing you there.

[glare]

1. Are the western coalition mercenaries truly neutral and what is their history as an organisation?
I only ask because some of the plot lines these last 6 months have made Irwin and Locke look super shady. There is almost no information about them on wiki or in game Only some things I can intuit from statues and the like.
I'm mostly looking to see what part they've played in the larger scheme of things as they aren't mentioned in any previous large scale military events even though their am ilitary organisation. I could intuit that they helped out in places but yeah. No mention of them specifically far as I've seen (excluding the most recent event). In my mind there is a huge difference between the kind of neutral that upholds neutrality. Or the kind of neutral that only looks after their own interests why paying lip service to the concept. I'm fine with either, confirmation would just help me feel less lost.

2. Given the information available on the Wiki are the Harbingers of Aranas more on the scale of the bloodcult as in, a group of individuals as described. or are they an organized church all across Arad like the church of light?
E.g. I'm imagining more like a secretive Qabbal as opposed to the cathlic church.

3. What is the role of a guild guru exactly? And what freedoms / powers are they given to pursue their respponsibilities?

Thta's about all I got.
Thanks

[Vaelin]

Since there are rogue elemancers and mummers running out and about, how does their respective organizations view these people who cause bad rep on the organization?

[Smoothcoffee]

I would love to be there. What time?

[artus]

1. I've heard and witnessed a lot of powerplay in guilds, like some guilds having too many abilities that pretty much destroys others in cvc to the point of making people frustrated ic and ooc, like near invincible, something like that. And this happens to one major guild that has quite a bit of power play over the mud right now, leading cause of evil playing and way too many characters going evil and swarming the mud at once, in turn stressing some people out ic and ooc. I also heard part of this were gm oriented. How many of these are actually gm involved and how many are sole players? For example, was the entire repeated attack on shadgard gm oriented? I'm not speaking the first or last attack but every single one of them over and over in weeks if not months. It happens all the time, sometimes almost without rest one after the others. I'm not even sure if anyone feel like their specific characters and even themselves are specifically targetted. Speaking for others here. Don't quote me. But the frustration is there for a few people I've heard from.

2. Still on the topic of cvc here. Are their obvious proper policy put in place visually or not visually for players to see? I'm not speaking character vs character conflict. I'm speaking combat. Some people seem to be killed more than the others and I'm not sure if some of these can be considered abuse by any mean.

3. Some minor stuff in certain guilds are still questionable and causes misunderstanding among players, like restrictions of guild objects (such as locksmiths from one guild giving other locksmiths stuff and the other ones can't. It's not clear if they're able to buy locks from those who can sell or not). Some people don't really know what's the rule and what's not and may break their own character or even themselves due to lacking this sort of knowledge.

[Ruta]

I'd appreciate an official GM response on the Wardens guild:
- What common known information, if any, is there about them, their purpose, their beliefs, and their origin? What makes them so different from the other druids we know about?
- Are they secretive and cagey about everything by intentional design or is that just the players taking that initiative?
- Where are they intended to fit in the game meta with their abilities and general role (combat, healing, crafting, utility, so on)?
- Can we get some examples of some of the abilities they get, or at least some hint at the direction of what their abilities support doing mechanically? I would prefer to know more than "they are druids or priests and priestesses of nature". Especially because they say they are not typical druids, so what does that even mean? Thieves we can assume get abilities to help with sneaking and deception and stealing. Assassins we can assume get abilities to help stealth combat and assassination. With Wardens always saying they're not your typical druid there is literally no way to even try to intuit what playing a Warden actually entails beyond RPing some vague offshoot druid branch that we also have no information on.
- How does divination and fortune telling fit into druidry?
- Do they have other powers atypical to the druidry we've seen in other guilds? (Asking because their members have linked the IRL pagan library website in the past)

[darkangel]

With sorcery.
Does getting tainted require your character to be an antaggonist?
Is cryomancy only the manipulation of the cold in the environment, or it can be used to freeze objects?

[Ruta]

I won't be able to make this due to work schedule. Can someone please post some notes after the meeting?

[Vaelin]

They will be.

[Zeldryn]

I just wanted to chime in here quickly and say that i'll be posting an abridged summary of questions and answers discussed during the Q&A today. It's a rather sizeable log (and is currently still ongoing, I just didn't want to forget about this post) , so might take a day or two of sorting through, but i just wanted to be transparent that there will be a summary posted!


Thanks to everyone who took part, and offered their time throughout the experience. It was very, very pleasant and constructive. High hopes to more of this kind of thing in the eventual future!

[Zeldryn]

I entered the meeting a bit late, so any feedback on topics I might've missed so I can add them to this post would be appreciated!

Topic I: Loona asks, "Given the recent events, how have you felt with our ability to make things fun and enjoyable when dealing with hostile factions and the characters you all play?"

(Wasn't present for beginning answers. Log begins below.)


Loona says, "I do understand that it may come off as harsh in terms of players being X-communicated from a city that other characters spend their time in. I imagine it makes socializing very difficult outside a small group."

Loona says, "However, these (can be)consequences for those who wish to play an evil aligned character."

Loona says, "Which the Harbingers most certainly at least, are."

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Fortunato.

Fortunato has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Sideri says, "Maybe something players often overlook or forget about the Tse Gaiyan, and this is quoted directly from the wiki: "Individual Tse Gaiyan members are often viewed as representatives of their entire organization, and moreso than most other guilds, the actions of a single individual can have an affect on all other members, sometimes to a significant degree." You are part of a very big organization fighting the resen. You will be seen as being afiliated with them in some way if you let it be known and this can have strings and responsibbilities and roles attached. As a Utasa, you are not simply some wandering mook with lockpicks."

Loona agrees with Sideri.

Loona says, "Thank you for that Sideri."

Fortunato says, his voice muffled by a handkerchief, "Well, it's more than that the harbingers are evil. it's that they do publicly horrifying acts of terror. For example, you could easiy see how the Dominion, wile perhaps being it's own shade of evil, simply would not tolerate such acts within it's realm as an offense to civilization."

Jirato nods to Fortunato.

Loona nods.

You accept the offer and are now holding the shiniest talking stick.

You mention, "I just also wanted to make a quick note that even as a non-harbinger, I try to keep in mind that my actions-- especially in regard to behavior within cities-- can hold some pretty distinct risk. Don't think that as a good aligned character who's done good aligned things that you're going to get lighter consequences. I think it's always a healthy mentality, at least in terms of making risky actions in towns, to expect the worst. Just to prepare yourself just in case. I'm totally open to feedback on that mentality, however."

Loona nods.

You offer to give the shiniest talking stick to Loona.
You may cancel if you wish to withdraw the offer.

Loona has accepted your offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Loona says, "There are some cases when being a credible and respected citizen has its perks."

Loona says, "However, you shouldn't assume you can get away with anything at any point ever. Even if you pass all your stealth checks,a thief could still be seen by an NPC in the crowd."

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Ryko.

Ryko has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Ryko says, "Just wanted to add a bit before going back to the original question. I think if you're evil and you are feeling deprevation from being banned or punished ICly for IC actions. I think I wrote it in my how to be a villain post that there are on Clok more than most other muds. Quite a number of neutral PCs you can have / pay / coerce to do things or RP with you. So being banned from a town. Shouldn't, in my estimation be as big of a deal as it may sound at first."

An iridescent white feather drifts down and lands on the ground. There is a bright flash of golden light and Uyoku appears in its place.

Ryko says, "In my opinion anyway."

Ryko says, "My concern from the original question mostly is that I personally haven't taken parts in events that are not combat centric. What I mean by this is that any event of consequence to a storyline has been resolved via combat. Not that there haven't been events that don't have combat. I'm concerned that the nature of these fairly cool, epic and important seeming events is pushing a mentality that if you dont' focus on grinding combat skills you'll be sorta just fodder for anything of importance that rolls around. I don't have the best track record for attending events so do correct me if I'm way off."

Loona nods.

Ryko offers the shiniest talking stick to Loona.

Loona has accepted Ryko's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Loona says, "I know what you mean. I feel the same way about it,. A large population of the playerbase has some amount of combat skill, save for one or two noncombat oriented guilds."

Loona says, "So it makes combative events the most inclusive, but it does tend to exclude those few who are not."

Gunhild says, "I mean. i'm not 100% combat inclined, but many of my chars are. would like to see something different from swarm of mob attacks this or that. or mob that shouldn't be in that area is in that area things."

Ryko nods.

Loona says, "I noticed in the event we had this past weekend, we had a couple crafters online who were only really involved through ESP, and due to arrangements with those groups, they didn't get a lot of the story while it was happening."

Loona says, "There have been a couple events lately that we've made with crafters in mind though, the watchtower construction in Haiban, and I'm not sure what has been going on in Shadgard, but some opportunities to talk shop with an NPC likely isn't unlikely."

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Kissa.

Kissa has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Sideri says, "This is true, it is also that noncombat things can take a great deal more effort and organization on both sides. That being said, there are at least three ongoing non-combat events now, one of them partially character organized, and one or two others in the works. So it is a struggle of which we are aware. The Lost Lands are dangerous and filled with creepy monsters, so combat events will happen, but definitely diversity is something I want to personally aim for."

Loona agrees with Sideri.

Uyoku nods to Sideri.

Jirato says, "Not including the major story-driven events like what happened last weekend, it's also pretty easy for us to just spawn a couple critters if we want to do something quick and easy and have a limited amount of time. Unfortunately, for something non-combat related, it's significantly more drawn out and involved. Though, thankfully we've got a lot of really nice active GMs now to do the more involved stuff too."

Loona nods to Jirato.

Uyoku nods to Jirato.

Kissa seriously assures, "First, in regards to Loona's question. While I do admit I myself have felt unsure in the extent of my character playing a role in events, both combat and non combat related, I do have to say that being banned from a city is not such a big inconvenience as some would make it out to be. I know that maybe sometimes my character is an enigma, even for myself, I try to make it clear for those who observe at all times, and want to say that city banning is not as tedious at others want to make that."

Jirato says, "A quick word regarding Haiban situation."

Loona nods to Jirato.

Jirato says, "I wrote a lengthy Q and A on the GM BBS if Loona wants to share it later, I'm trying to put together a report for work before I have to head home for the day so don't have time to go into too much detail, but what I do want to do, is appologize. Not for what happened recently, but for any misperceptions of safety or neutrality that were caused by previous inaction and inattentiveness."

Jirato says, "What happened in Haiban isn't really anything new, but I kinda suck at enforcing it and haven't really spent too much time policing it."

Jirato says, "And, this is gonna be a super unpopular statement, I know. But, someone mentioned GMs may not realize how harsh playing a harbinger might be. I do know it's an extremely difficult guild to play in, and I applaud people's efforts in trying to tough it out. But really, I fully expect most harbingers to eventually wind upw ith corvus outpost as their only safe haven."

Jirato says, "Done."

You loftily agree, "I most certainly agree with that assertion, good sir."

Loona says, "I did want to mention something regarding alts, related to what Jirato just mentioned. If you have an alt on the side of Corvous, and you also have a character on the side of Shadgard or templars or anything like that, we do expect you to shelve one while ongoing conflict is going on between the two factions. This could go for anything, if mercs begin a war with Utasa or something, we don't want you who has a merc and Utasa to play both sides."

You say, "I did it. It's only fair."

(Ryko brightens hopefully for war. War with you, war with that other guy. War with anyone really. he loves War.)

Safiyah thoughtfully says, "I just wanted to give ya'll this perspective re: banning in towns. While it feels heavy handed, remember there are people who live in those towns. Families, kids, orphans, not just the PCs. So as a templar character, it makes sense to me that we want to keep these people out. Whether they want to change that through IC means, that is completely up to you as a player. I would find it a bit worrying from a NPC point of view if someone who killed my kid's cat Ziggy came back six months later like nothing happened. That's all."

Safiyah offers the shiniest talking stick to Loona.

Loona has accepted Safiyah's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Bianca.

Bianca has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Sideri says, "Especially, please no meta-gaming, ever. No switching to other characters to eavesdrop on their anti-opposing-team plans, to sneak into a town where one is allowed and murder the guards, so on and so forth. I am not saying it has happened, only providing the most extreme of examples why we generally very strongly discourage it."

Bianca says, "As someone who never took part in the attacks just being a supporter and being kicked out was harsh to me. I only started joining attacks because why not if I was going to be kicked out anyway."

Bianca offers the shiniest talking stick to Vlora.

Vlora has accepted Bianca's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Vlora quietly says, "As a person well known for his 100000000 alts, I agree how hard it is to ahem stay within the thick of things. This is why I try to religate myself as a supporting char in events. Still, the fact that opposing factions still manage to work with each other, even with tensions is great, this means that your chars have dephs and aren't in the binary if you're not with us you're against us mindset."

Vlora thoughtfully says, "I suppose it's also that it's a problem with a smaller player base, in the long run you'll be forced to interact with the person you're willing to shoot first. How you guys spin it though, is admirable."

Vlora offers the shiniest talking stick to Loona.

(Echlin is sorry for making conspiracy theories about haiban.)

You cackle at Echlin!

Artus says, "Attacking and supporting attackers...i don't see any difference, to be honest. it has just as severe consequence."


Loona has accepted Vlora's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Loona says, "We do recognize that you are free to roleplay your characters so long as it fits the theme of the world and is supported by lore. However, it does upset us when we see characters part of the Harbingers guild sitting around and laughing with people they literally just killed a couple days before as if everything is fine."

Loona says, "That being said, cooperation is something that can be occasionally done, especially when it involves a large scale event like this past weekend. It just shouldn't be the norm."



Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Gunhild.

Jirato says, "I may break SAY, sorry."

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Kissa.

Loona covers his face with his palm.

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Ocelotl.

Ocelotl has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

<A brief break of me singing lean on me, the heat of the moment, and other classic 80s hits through tells while we waited for typing and bad internet.>

Jirato leans toward you and whispers, "Try to SAYTO at me again please?"

sayto jir Oh, i'd just love to.
Oops. That command execution failed. Please report this with the bug command using the following syntax: bug [bug info]
Example: bug I get an error when trying to use the LOAD verb with my flintlock.

You lean toward Jirato and whisper, "Whoops. You broke it."

*sitcom laugh track*

(Uyoku smirks.)


Ocelotl says, "So, just a little comment of my own on the whole aposing sides working together thing, I think in general terms, moderation is probably the best for it, though of course, every interaction is different and will have their own outcomes so hard and fast rules don't apply either. so, while it realistically makes sense for characters to oppose each other if one of the characters did something the other doesn't agree with, I don't think it's realistic either for it to get to the point where it's polarized to the point one side has to completely stop talking to or interacting with the other side, including all the others who might have not been involved. of course, individual characters will choose to not align them selves with others and that is completely fine, but I think it's completely in the realm of possibility for some characters to be a bit more flexible in what they think and what they do, even doing business and socializing with the others, but again, it shouldn't be having actual tea parties with the people who drank the blood of your relatives."

Ocelotl says, "So, the jist of what i'm saying is people probably shouldn't be completly tribalistic and form set binary teams where everybody is expected to conform to, but The opposite as well probably shouldn't be the norm either. so, moderation is key, but we need to remember that every interaction has its factors that affect the outcome."

Loona says, his voice muffled by a helmet, "Thank you."

DEVLOG: Corrected an oversight where the SAYTO command was using an extremely old/outdated version of the SAY code. -- Jirato 19:43, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
(Wow, those devs. Bugfixing in the middle of a meeting. Talk about efficiency!)

Sideri says, "Oh, I did want to run through one of Jirato's answers to a forum question, given it is relevant, before we move on."

Loona nods to Sideri.

Sideri asks, "Q: Are the western coalition mercenaries truly neutral and what is their history as an organisation?"

Sideri says, "A: Note that I'm not a TTRPG player and not the most knowledgeable of D&D, but if I had to put one of the classical D&D alignments to the Western Coalition, I'd probably say they fall under "Lawful Neutral", but slightly more lax and forgiving than a strictly Lawful Neutral setting, especially when it comes to matters of pursuit of their wealth and influence. Again, I'm not really an expert of the classic alignment system."

Sideri says, "Many mercenaries come from rough backgrounds, their lives before they joined a more organized mercenary group may have included some unsavory things like banditry, murder, and such. The coalition has to maintain at least some semblance of order within their organization to keep things from turning to pure chaos with all the mixed backgrounds of their members. While a major part of them is this ragtag mercenary troupe, another side of the house is a group of skilled craftsmen and merchants. They need to maintain order and organization in order to maintain their upstanding reputation and continue reaping profits from those that partake of their services."

Sideri says, "Their overall posture and alignment may have also been influenced and changed by recent events over the past decade as people burnt down their outpost, assassinated their leadership, etc. Right now, the quarantine zone is an extremely unstable place with many hostilities. Assassins in general have always been considered a great threat to their organization due to numerous murders of prominent coalition members (including Irwin himself) that have taken place both within the old Coalition outpost and the new construction of Haiban."

Loona nods.

Sideri says, "Some players may feel a bit shaken up by the recent addition of the notices posted out the main gates, but really, that's not anything new, it's just more publicly visible now. An overtly evil organization such as the Harbingers would logically be included with this ban. However, with most other faction related systems in CLOK with only one exception (Corvus/Shadgard), it's not going to be an automatic ban until you publicly out yourself. I'll admit I haven't really had the time or resources to actively monitor everything going on in Haiban and kick out any outed assassins or harbingers, so I understand why me actually doing what was always supposed to happen being a bit of a shock. Hopefully with the increased staffing we have now and more active presence we will be able to be more consistent with these."

Jirato says, "Back to my earlier appology, sorry for not really monitoring it all that heavily in the past."

Loona nods.

Loona says, "As far as any recent events involving Irwin and Locke, there weren't really any major ones that I can think of? It's certainly not my intention to make them come off as shady. They value their reputation in the quarantine zone above all, as they won't be able to make profit without a good reputation. If you'd like to clarify what specifically you feel has made them come across as shady, please email support. Though keep in mind there may have been third party actors in recent events that were mistaken for being coalition-related when they had nothing to do with the coalition."

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Kissa.

Kissa has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Kissa hurriedly apologizes, "Only a quick question, apologies. harbingers or assassins will not be outed from haiban unless this is somehow known to the coalition, am I right?"

Loona nods.

Sideri says, "Correct."

Sideri says, "They do not have a magical claw detector."

Loona laughs!

Bianca snickers.

Safiyah cackles!
Kissa laughs, snorting through her nose!

(Sona starts working on the magical claw detector.)

Echlin smiles.

Kissa offers the shiniest talking stick to Loona.

Loona has accepted Kissa's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Sona.

Sona has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Sona says, "I've felt positives and negatives. All subjective to my point of view, I'm sure. One of the things I've enjoyed is that I feel like something's going on, but being in the loop about it all, or even trying to be in the loop about it all can be frustrating, and NPCmails feel like they're falling through the cracks. I do wonder if we might be able to get an OOC mail response for if the NPCmail you've submitted has been viewed/answered/closed/opened/etc. I personally tend to dislike conflicting CVC factions in small to mid sized games/muds, but kudos to players for (thus far) in my experience for seeming rather reasonable all around."

Loona nods.

Loona says, "We don't want players to become too reliant on NPCs to get things done. We do genrally look at NPCmail, but a response isn't always warranted, or indeed a good use of the time we might have at that moment."

Sona offers the shiniest talking stick to Loona.

Loona says, "Staying within the loop on events is a little difficult, especially if you're isolated from social groups and certain towns. We'll try and be more responsive though, but again, important NPCs are very busy and wouldn't always have time to respond. If you'd like to give us a poke about something super important, feel free to mail us at support@clokmud.com."

Maina says, "I haven't really made my opinion on this a secret, but I think it's important and it is often dismissed or people get defensive. With the focus on CvC, I think it is very important that we mind what is said on chat to not involve or reference IC in any way. Flow of information is important, and some people may want to learn about recent happenings ICly rather than having it spoiled out of character. That's stealing away a lot of important character moments from others; playing out how they take the news, how they relate it to other characters. Even smaller-scale moments that seem inconsequential, which I see most frequently, like talking and joking about stuff happening in your room can either leave people feeling excluded (which is even more harmful when tensions are high from CvC) or leaving people in the uncomfortable position of wanting to track down a character for IC reasons (for good or ill), knowing where they are OOCly due to chat, and being unable to pursue that for fear of being accused of metagaming. Even after the public warning that staff will be cracking down on it, I haven't really seen any decrease in the amount of IC on chat. I didn't know if now was the appropriate time since it is related to events but also expands much beyond them."

Loona says, "We actually have received a number of reports regarding chat lately. Our email has been um, tied up though, and receiving those notifications have been hard. However, as was discussed I think last week, if someone asks for chat to remain OOC and for IC conversation to stop, please do respect that, but most importantly, just don't do it. We hate banning people from channels. We hate seeing players uncomfortable with things talked about on chat whether it be something IC related or just inappropriate."

Loona has accepted Maina's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Loona says, "Our email is back up though, and receiving those notifications is retroactive."
Safiyah has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Safiyah thoughtfully says, "I do want to ask something of the players regarding ooc/ic things."

Safiyah thoughtfully adds, "Particularly concerning to events."

Safiyah quietly says, "I would, really, really appreciate it if, especially after long events, we did something like what we talk about in character, where hostilities and whatever kind of... just wait a tick. Two minutes, five. Just give everyone who has participated in a long event time to breathe. Last weekend, I loved the hell out of that event. And I wanted sofi to quietly just retreat because 1. I hadn't eaten anything all day 2. I did need to focus on myself. But right after the event ended, she got pulled into a CvC conflict, and I didn't feel I had a way out. I spoke to Sideri about this, but figured I'd be more direct about it. I love everyone, I really do... it'd just be nice to be able to breathe for a minute before kicking off with murder and all that."

Echlin agrees with Safiyah.

Aegeus nods in agreement.

Safiyah quietly says, "I know clok is a constantly evolving thing. But. There are players behind the keyboard who can't be templars in real life and do have to stop to breathe, remind themselves to eat, and take care of their mental health."

You say, "On that note, i've got an addition, as well. Just for sake of transparency with these things."

You honestly say, "I know we try to keep immersion in tact with our CvC, here. It's great. But-- if you don't want to take part in something-- say so. If you're worried you're going to upset someone, send them a tell, maybe. We're here to have fun, ultimately. When tensions run high, good communication keeps things from breaking down. That's all."

(Kissa seriously agrees with Zeldryn.)

Artus smiles at Safiyah.

Bianca agrees with you.

Speaking to Safiyah, Artus says, "Feeling the same way seeing all that, even though i'm not part of it most of the time, sofi."

You say, "You can ask a few people here. After i've done something that I felt bad about a bit too much, I sent them a tell. we made sure we were fine. It kept us from getting bitter, I think."

Maina gives you a hug.

You hug Maina.

Speaking to you, Artus says, "Always zel."
Artus grins.

Kissa smiles at you.

Maina says, "Very not canon. For the record."

Aegeus smiles.

You adopt an agreeable expression.

(Sona shares some drakolyn stew with the queenliest one.)

Vlora quietly says, "I tend to ask someone's permission or an apology after a cvc conflict."

Ryko says, "I think the Clok playerbase is the first I've played in where I have some hope that if you were to send someone a tell OOC saying you don't want to take part in a CVC for OOC reasons, that they would be mature enough to not take it negatively. In that situation Safi, try sending them a tell. Evidently. I wasn't there and don't know the specifics so I don't know if you even had the time / chance to but yeah."

You say, "Ryko has it exactly right. I've done just that, and had other people do so to me. And I've both stopped in my tracks, and had others stop in their tracks. Sometimes, you're just having a bad day. it's okay to say that. we're all people, here."

Aegeus smiles.

Aegeus nods.

Aelarra adopts an agreeable expression.

Maina says, "Though, like, don't try to abuse that to avoid in-character consequences and get yourself out of trouble in bad faith."

Uyoku says, "To address what Safiyah said, I think a good name for that is event aftercare, and I agree that after an intense or long event, a moment to breathe and gather ones self is necessary. After putting together a long merchant event or any time consuming event, it leaves me personally drained and needing to step away for a little bit. I think it could be beneficial to allow everyone to have that breathing moment."

You say, "Absolutely that, maina."

Loona agrees with Maina.

Loona agrees with Uyoku.

Uyoku nods to Maina.

Vlora adopts an agreeable expression.

Aegeus adopts an agreeable expression.

Safiyah says, "Oh, I'm speaking in terms of big events like last weekend. tis all."

Ryko nods.

Uyoku nods.

Vlora leans toward Fortunato and whispers something.

Loona says, "Yes do not use OOC excuses to avoid conflict IC. If something does come up, that's fine, but logging out completely in that case is best, if you can manage a quick tell or chat, that's fine."

Artus says, "You gotta do it for your mental health's sake sometimes man. sometimes you can't really get yourself out of it ic."

You say, "Sometimes, accidents still happen. and accidents are okay. Just be clear about those accidents to avoid future boo boos."


(Zeldryn zips it.)

Kissa politely adds, "That is something I prefer to do at all times too, even if I have not made a clear stance on things, sometimes. everyone needs to breathe, I agree. but I have one little concern, however. some people. I do not desire to be impolite, and I apologize if it seems so, but tend to specifically avoid you or try to specifically prepare in advance after having the ooc knowledge about conflict going to happen between your characters. and after something happens, in my case, I always, always send a tell, if I can get a hold of the person, asking if everything is right."

Artus says, "I'm honestly impressed how sofi managed to keep up with all of that. i can't, really can't. That's why playing my character my way now is the safest for my mental health. The tension is high everywhere these days especially when it comes to town and major stuff."

Sideri says, "Maybe there is a common thread here, between these two things, where this is ultimately a community-centric etiquette. We can try our best to watch for these things as gms, but truthfully, sometimes by the time it reaches is oocly it is because it already happened. So yes, try to be respectful of each other please."

You adopt an agreeable expression.

Safiyah smiles at Sideri.
Aelarra agrees with Sideri.

Ocelotl adopts an agreeable expression.
Fortunato just left.

Echlin nods in agreement.

Safiyah says, "But really, thank you guys for hearing me out on this particular point. I like event aftercare as a term."

Sideri says, "This being said moving back to the original ic-ooc thing for a moment..."

Sideri says, "This is not me disagreeing with Maina, in fact I have voiced numerous requests to please not discuss or comment about in-character situations over very public out of character mediums like chat, but this is ultimately a community-centric problem. Disabling chat is something I have taken to doing while running events simply to try and keep characters focused on the rp, not the ooc reactions to the rp, even if it is something as innocent as chatting laughter instead of crying as your character, but it would be drastic and unfair to disable it for everyone permanently and cut off an avenue to community this way. Still, I would go so far as to say this can be actively harmful: the other day someone accidentally confused ic and ooc knowledge and it was directly related to this kind of talk-about-ic-on-chat thing."

Aelarra quietly says, "My personal experience with it has been wonderful so far, and i truly appreciate players throwing in a quick tell after."

Loona nods.

Ocelotl says, "Generally, no matter my characters alignment, I always try to ask permission ooc before doing any cvc. i know that it's likely metagaming in some light, but i think it's a good way to cut down on the whole shocking surprise thing which seems to get players angry, including myself. it's kinda annoying to have cvc suddenly thrust upon one, so i try to not do that as much as possable. still, if a char is issuing threats and making it clear they're ready for cvc, i think it's not needed in that case."

Artus says, "Here's the thing though guys. As a long time player, I kinda noticed things changing as of recent. And, for the record, I lose track of what can or can't be said anymore provided the border has been crossed and mixed up, hence why I got chatscrapped the other day."

Vlora sadly sighs, "I'm a constant offender with this problem, and I apologize."

You say, "I think misunderstandings are okay. misunderstandings happen."

You say, "But so long as we're all trying, it's all we can do."

Maina says, "I think it's better to just err on the side of caution for everyone's sakes, regarding IC on chat."

Fortunato admits, his voice muffled by a handkerchief, "I crossed the line more than once."

Artus says, "It's like we say aloud everything sometimes and the lines have been blerred."

Loona says, "I believe in general, if it happened IC, don't discuss it on chat. If someone asks a question like, where is the infirmary, etc, or comments how lovely the descriptions are in the wilderness, that's fine."

Loona says, "But if you're talking about that joke your IC friend made on chat that only you and like one other person was there to witness, then that's pushing a policy violation."

Maina says, "If it's available on the wiki, I generally treat it as okay. All of the cities have maps on teh wiki."

You say, "If you absolutely feel the need to reference something to people for the sake of a giggle or something and don't want to send 5 tells, just do it in a way that's explanatory without actually offering any details. A callback only people there would understand, maybe. if you truly, truly, truly feel the urge. I've done that before and kind of felt okay about it. but i think even that's a gray area."

Maina says, "It is also not a way around an osay command, I feel."

You say, "Ultimately i think it's not all that unreasonable to just refrain from talking about IC, character related stuff on public chat mediums."

You say, "If you want to talk to your friends in a group chat, discord does exist."

Aegeus quietly says, "Yes and no. i think that this could also turn back on if you remember, how the tcor command was used before it being modified. what is the point of a group chat i mean it could be used the same way chat is now, sometimes, to discuss ic in ooc. which is what we are trying to avoid so... yeah, it'd be neat, and then again it might be not."

Aelarra says, "It might break emersion, if a groupchat command were to be implemented."

Artus says, "Cause then people will start doing ic stuff and involve ooc in it."

Echlin agrees with Aegeus.

Aelarra agrees with you.

Loona says, (in response to the concept of an OOC group chat system being implemented) "I'm sorry, but that won't be happening. We do want to limit the amount of OOC commentary in the game as it is."

Artus nods.

Ocelotl says, "I've had experiance where ooc chat groups were a thing, like people could form these in another game. honestly, while it looks like a goood idea, i've seen that it's just... not good. often times, meta info would be shared and cliques formed quickly."

Maina nods to Ocelotl.

Aegeus agrees with Ocelotl.

Sideri says, "Maybe the issue is also talking about what is happening to your character is very literally keeping you from reacting as your character, even if it was as simple as mentioning how funny something said to you felt."

Sideri says, "A groupchat would only amplify this."

Loona says, "What your character is thinking and how they react should be focused on, not how you feel OOC about it."

Loona nods to Sideri.

Ocelotl says, "Honestly, i don't mind the ooc comments to an extent. like, saying that you mistyped, or that you need to go, or commenting on how something is funny, that's fine. the problem seems to lie with the events being spoken about. not like novles are being written about on chat, but snipits do get shared, and that seems to not often be by those harmless little comments, or at least i think so."

You say, "I think just making a note to people and putting it out in the consciousness like we have here is enough, for now."

Ryko nods.

Maina says, "I don't think the harmless little comments are so harmless, but I explained why earlier."

Speaking to Maina, Ryko says, "I don't disagree with you. I just don't think. Given my own observations of what people are comfortable with that most people view it as the same kind of problem that you or I or staff might."

You say, "If you think something is, say, really funny IC, and you want to express that on an OOC level without being IC. Don't say it on chat. just send the person who committed the hilarity a tell."

Maina says, "Like my forum sig."

Maina beams happily at you!

You say, "See? Boom."

Aelarra quietly says, "I don't mean to point out fingers, but i've seen jokes made on character's behalf, which can be taken harmlessly, or not so harmlessly depending on the person, which also leads to resentment."

Vlora says, "As a frequent offender of this. I'll try to keep it in mind."

Fortunato says, his voice muffled by a handkerchief, "Vaelin knows what i'm talking about."

Echlin says, "Did we also get a confirmation on whether it is okay to use _s if a word was missed in the say."

Loona says, "We would appreciate it if everybody was more aware. If we see it happening, we'll be inclined to disable chat, again we don't like doing that, but it really shouldn't be happening. It's a policy for a reason."

You say, "I think, in summary, this whole conversation topic can best be answered with, "If you're unsure, send a tell. If you're sure, but want to be sure? Send a tell. Always send a tell. You're never hurting anyone by asking."."

Ocelotl says, "There are situations where this would not be very convenient, such as a large group, but still, I will try to stick to that."
You say, "I get that. But I think one can generally assume that if they thoughtt something was great, others did, too."

Loona says, "In which case you just move on, keep on trucking through."

Speaking to Loona, Maina says, "Sorry for the lengthy derail... you were trying to get to a new topic like an hour ago..."

Loona says, "It's alright, this was something that needed to be discussed."

Sideri nods.

Vlora asks, (In reference to a bug in the current room) "What happens if you sayto?"

(Near-concurrently) You simply say, "The world ends." Loona says, "You splode." Sideri says, "The world breaks quietly."

(Zeldryn goes up for the high five with Loona.)

(But he was left hanging.)

Loona says, "There's a couple other things that were asked about on the BBS. I think we'll move on to those. This has been going for a while, and I'm sure everybody has things they need to do, or want to get to in game."

(Zeldryn will do his best to summarize what has been talked about after reading through the log as well.)

Loona says, "I'll Go over these quickly, but if you wish to say something just raise your hand."

Loona asks, "Q. Since there are rogue elemancers and mummers running out and about, how does their respective organizations view these people who cause bad rep on the organization?"

Loona says, "This answer is from Jirato. Certainly not favorably. It's been difficult to take specific actions on these cases as there have never really been any IC complaints to guild masters or other representatives. It should be expected, however, that if you earn a reputation as a rogue elemancer, you will eventually be barred from the university. The mummer camp is a bit of a looser organization, though for extreme cases of violence and mass murder, I can see them expelling a member from their guild."

(Fortunato raises his hand.)
Fortunato has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Gunhild asks, "What i wanted to ask about the rogue elemancer is, since they're tecnically... well, in the gray area, so they can be good or bad, what does define a rogue elemancer in first place?"

Loona says, "Attacking characters on the road, attacking towns, that sort of thing."

Loona says, "Generally not being a good little student."

Loona says, "To further that, I know Noctere has made a couple changes to support that particular character type, at least in regards to one of the formentioned guilds."

(Vlora nods her head, her question answered satisfactorily.)

Loona says, "Next one, 1. I've heard and witnessed a lot of powerplay in guilds, like some guilds having too many abilities that pretty much destroys others in cvc to the point of making people frustrated ic and ooc, like near invincible, something like that. And this happens to one major guild that has quite a bit of power play over the mud right now, leading cause of evil playing and way too many characters going evil and swarming the mud at once, in turn stressing some people out ic and ooc. I also heard part of this were gm oriented. How many of these are actually gm involved and how many are sole players? For example, was the entire repeated attack on shadgard gm oriented? I'm not speaking the first or last attack but every single one of them over and over in weeks if not months. It happens all the time, sometimes almost without rest one after the others. I'm not even sure if anyone feel like their specific characters and even themselves are specifically targetted. Speaking for others here. Don't quote me. But the frustration is there for a few people I've heard from."

Loona says, "A. Lets break this apart a bit. First, regarding "Too many abilities". Guilds are in no way meant to be balanced against eachother. CLOK is not an "Every guild is created equal" system. Just look at Snowpiners... Guilds provide a template for your desired RP. They're not meant to be a "join this guild because it has X ability" system, but rather a "join this guild because it has X lore, backstory, purpose, and RP opportunity" type of system."

Loona says, "A. Regarding GM involvement in events: I tend to categorize events between "player organized" and "official events". We (usually) love when players drive the story themselves, as it gives us time to work on other things, though sometimes a player organized event goes out of hand, or, if it invovles CvC, becomes too one sided and forces us to step in and take time away from other development projects. There was one official event involving an attack on Shadgard about a month ago. Any continued attacks are not being driven by the GM team, though as the situation became too one sided, we had to step in and provide significant reinforcements to the canyon snipers and gate guards. This was not meant as an encouragement for "team evil" to continue trying to attack, but rather a deterrent to guide them to stop so that we can focus on other things. I've even gone as far as OOCly posting on the BBS pleading for these attacks to stop. However, we can't exactly call it disruption or harassment, as what they're doing is still within the bounds of acceptable CvC. It just detracts a lot of time and effort from other areas of the game."

Safiyah has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Safiyah says, "I just wanted to say super quick that remember moderation of any kind is key. moving on."

Loona nods.

Loona has accepted Safiyah's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Ryko.

Ryko has accepted Loona's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Ryko says, "I just wanted to add that in my experience. People who tend to play villains as their mains (not always), but a good lot of the time are also pretty driven players. They grind a lot and think mechanically about how to win and are some of the best players of most games form a mechanical stand point. I'll use spidercat as an example here and I hope he doesn't mind. But he's ground his skills and worked out a pretty sweet strategy for his character to win combat encounters. His ability choice and strategy complement perfectly and in some situations result ina total lock down of his opponents. I'm mentioning this because sometimes those that lose against such characters feel like their invincible and they may very well be in comparison to others. But that's not the villain PCs fault. if they engage in CVC too much though. thats where it should be reported wehre possible."

Loona arches an eyebrow at Ryko.

Loona nods.

Ryko offers to give you the shiniest talking stick.

You accept the offer and are now holding the shiniest talking stick.

You say, "As a purely OOC aside, there's this perception that, say, the harbingers, have this stacked ability set that gives them an advantage. People who aren't a part of that guild don't realize that they have a fraction of the abilities that others do. Perception isn't reality. Not every guild member is built the same. That's all. Don't think that just because a person is strong and a member of a specific organization that that means that organization is "stacked.". I'm not saying that's common perception or anything, it's more just a general comment just in case."

You say, "What he said basically is what I said."

Vlora has accepted your offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Vlora says, "There is a mindset when you're playing a vilain that well, the world is out to get you, this is why you need to be better, stronger than them etc. However, I can honestly say that Harbingers have much less abilities than you expect. Also, in my own point of view in playing a vilain, my main purpose to starting a conflict oocly is to spark a reaction, for the heros to react. And if things are no longer fun, I will quietly withdraw, and rethink on how to make it fun for both sides. If that didn't come out as I wished, I am sorry here and now."

Vlora offers the shiniest talking stick to Loona.

Loona has accepted Vlora's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Speaking to Gunhild, Loona asks, "Still wanted to say something?"

Gunhild nods.

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Gunhild.

Aelarra agrees with Vlora.

Sideri says, "Generally, remember the underlying purpose of your guild. Elemancers are not meant to be a warriors-first guild like the Dwaedn Wyr; guilds which supplement their toolkit with sorcery or druidry are not intended to be as amazing with these things as those who specialize in there use. every guild has a central theme, and these are the kinds of things they are balanced around. Not against each other. Tangentially, it is polite and empowering to other characters to defer to their expertise on matters which they would have expertise in, as well? It has always felt a little bit demeaning to other characters if someone is a merchant who also knows everything about elemancy and thaumaturgy and sorcery and assasinating storytelling stealing druidry spying...."

Kissa quickly adds, "I would only desire to add that if a character is affiliated with some people, it does not mean that he or she becomes automatically evil. e.g some harbingers might be obbliged to join the guild due to pressure from aranas, vlora's harbinger came to mind, even what she said was short. but I would only like to remind everyone of this. apologies if this has not really been on with the topic."

Loona says, "Alright. Thank you for the comments and support."

Loona offers the shiniest talking stick to Aegeus.

Aegeus says, "This i think might help people in developing cvc conflict. I don't mind the fact that i lose. I just... sometimes mind the way i lose. That is to say, there are certain moments where freezing and killing your target is espected and accepted ic but um... sometimes being given a fighting chance will make both sides feel better. You know, struggling, even if it ends in you losing."

Loona agrees with Aegeus.

Loona says, "2. Still on the topic of cvc here. Are their obvious proper policy put in place visually or not visually for players to see? I'm not speaking character vs character conflict. I'm speaking combat. Some people seem to be killed more than the others and I'm not sure if some of these can be considered abuse by any mean."

Loona says, "A: Repeatedly killing the same person over and over again is a form of griefing, however, if the person potentially being griefed takes actions to escalate the situation or continues to confront the person killing them, then they nullify any opportunity for complaint. If someone feels they are being abused by someone constantly hunting them down and killing them, their best course of action is to immediately cease all interactions with that person, this includes talking about the incident OOCly. Most players of antagonistic type characters will take this withdrawal of interaction as a sign to stop. If they continue these types of actions, report them."

Loona says, "Q. Some minor stuff in certain guilds are still questionable and causes misunderstanding among players, like restrictions of guild objects (such as locksmiths from one guild giving other locksmiths stuff and the other ones can't. It's not clear if they're able to buy locks from those who can sell or not). Some people don't really know what's the rule and what's not and may break their own character or even themselves due to lacking this sort of knowledge."

Loona says, "A. I agree that it probably needs to be better posted ICly in their respective guilds. The general rule is, if you are an Utasa, you can share lockpicks with other Utasa. If you are a Thief, you can share lockpicks with other Thieves. Note that sharing of any guild service items with people who have been explicitly barred from guild services (such as probation or expulsion) could also land you in hot water. We probably need to have the team whip up some signage and place it in the appropriate shops."

Loona says, "However."

Loona says, "There are some circumstances when this isn't the case, but do know that specific guild items are monitored and we receive notifications whenever they're moved around."

Loona says, "But we'll do more to make these guidelines clear in their respective guilds."

Sideri says, "Generally the rule of thumb should be, if this person has no access to this certain service or item, you should not be giving it to them. Any exceptions should be made clear to those it applies to, and if it is not, then we will strive to make it so."
Speaking to Loona, Gunhild asks, "So, utasa can't give out lockpicks to people other than utasa, but i've heared, about a char that got lockpicks from thieves, and was not part of said guild, i understand that that allows thieves to sell lockpicks to any locksmith?"
Sideri says, "As a sidenote...this includes members of your own guild if they happen to be on probation, or do not have the same privileges as you."
Loona says, "I haven't actually gotten a clear answer from Jirato on this. At the time I had made the call that it was fine for this to happen. Since the member in question was no longer part of the Utasa guild. I still feel that is the case given the circumstances of that situation."
Loona says, "Again, we'll make the guidelines that should be followed more clear."

Sideri says, "Oh, and as a sidenote sidenote, this is no excuse to, again, metagame. Not everyone who has a lockpick is a thief or a Utasa; not everyone who has fancy black clothing is of this or that specific organization simply because you happen to recognize the specific shop customizations. Please use a little bit of common sense? "You have black armor and own a fancy knife, you must be an assassin from those Claw people!" is not very realistic."

Vlora says, "On the topic of guild items... my harbinger is... let's say distributing some clothing to divert suspiscion due to people icly suddenly suspecting people wearing those clothes as a member of the guild... There is ic reason behind this... however I want to know if I'm violating guild stances about it."

Loona shrugs.

Loona says, "The armor they have is not wearable by anybody who is not a harbinger. Perhaps we'll make that true for the other items if it becomes a problem."

Ocelotl says, "Honestly, when it comes to guild items being shared, again, Moderation is what I think is the best. like, if someone from i dunno... the doughnutmakers guild wanted to share a Super secret donut making ingredient with a member of the furniture restoration guild, it should be mechanicly possable and if they succeed in doing it sneakily, the other person should have access to it. however, I think they should understand that in character if they get caught, they will have consequences. so what I'm saying is, I think there should be room for shady deals without mechanical limits on this, but ic backfire will happen."

Jirato says, "SAYTO bug should be fixed."

Aelarra agrees with Ocelotl.

Sideri says, "Absolutely. In-character actions will have in-character consequences."

Loona says, "Actions like that are always handled in an IC manner. I don't think there's ever been a case when a character received special guild equipment from another guild and we had to resort to OOC methods of correcting it or reacting."

Loona says, "That being said, we don't want to make it sound like we have 24 hours a day to monitor what you and who you are sending things to. Please don't make more work for us if you can help it."

Loona says, "Hopefully we've cleared that up. Guilds have unique things, but when it becomes known that this specific guild is the only one that has access to them, it becomes very risky to use said items for its members."

Loona says, "This shouldn't be the case. There's only a handfull of guilds in which it would be appropriate to assume their associations."

Loona says, "Based on their requipment."

[Zeldryn]

Sideri asks, "Q: What common known information, if any, is there about [the Wardens], their purpose, their beliefs, and their origin?"

Sideri says, "A: The public knowledge that would be easily accessed is that the Wardens of the Grove, or just Wardens for short, is that they are a group of like-minded individuals working toward the balance of nature and civilization. This is done through ritual, teaching and special techniques they learn as a Warden. The group as awhole is non-combat driven, though a Warden will step up in defense of the balance between the natural world and the civilized one for lack of a better term. Wardens call on the wisdom of the nature-based immortals such as Madrim and Atros and believe that through ritual, teaching, herbal lore and other druidic techniques they can help to maintain a healthy balance in helping people and nature work together as opposed to one another."

Sideri says, "The Wardens of the Grove are a small organization that were created in the lost lands only a short time ago by Grovemaster Vernin and a couple of other like-minded folk who wished to aid Gaea in their own way with druidic techniques and rituals. Grovemaster Vernin sought out others similar to himself and established the Wardens of the Grove as a group meant to learn various druidic techniques and use their knowledge to teach others how to live with nature as opposed to against it."

Sideri says, "It is well known that unlike Udemi, Wardens embrace druidry and ritual as a huge part of their life, as opposed to a tool meant to be used against the Resen. It is also known that the Wardens, while caretakers for nature in their way, wish to create balance between the natural world and modern progress unlike certain groups that wish to push an agenda of anything civilization related is detrimental to the natural way of things."

Sideri says, "As a little extra note from me, because it is something we have discussed as a group, the Wardens were once called Lorekeepers of Atros and Madrim. They are now the Wardens of the Grove, no longer tied to these two specific immortals, but welcoming of all the druidic immortals, so long as they are ultimately in line with Uyoku's above mentioned organizational goals."

Gunhild asks, "So, my question about the wardens is. they're tecnically meant to be something like, the super wilderness inclined kind of char that are in the between dunwyr levels and townsfolk levels?"

Sideri says, "They are not to be compared to Dunwyr. While it is true both are very nature-focused, given the above answer, it is entirely possible Dunwyr and the Wardens may even at times have conflict with each other. They are nature-y from a help people live in harmony with it standpoint, not from a murder everything not nature standpoint."

Uyoku nods to Sideri.

Uyoku says, "That also said, they aren't all wild men or women living off the land and only the land, they won't shun towns and cities but they have a very heavy focus on nature. I hate the Dunwyr Udemi comparison, but it is often th ebest way to really emphasize the differences. The Wardens on the whole are true neutral, think of the Dunwyr as... well hmm, I'm not great with the alignment stuff either but..."

Sideri says, "Individual characters are still individual characters. This is an overview of the Wardens, not specific wardens you may or may not have had interactions with in-game, and those interactions should maybe remain in-game."

Uyoku nods to Aelarra.

Maina agrees with Sideri.

accept
You accept the offer and are now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Gunhild nods.

Uyoku nods to Sideri.

Uyoku says, "And Zel, go for it I want to hear your spin, I'm not the best with words so bear with me folks."

[[TERRIBLE EXPLANATION INCOMING]]

You seriously drawl, "First of all-- what Sideri said. Second of all. In my experience, if the dunwyr are the clok equivalent of eco-terrorists. Think of the wardens as the clok equivalent of hippie love children who want to vibe with the world and society, not prop one or the other up."

Uyoku winces.

Uyoku says, "That is a way to put it, I hate the idea of the Wardens as tree huggers, but that's about as on the nose as we can get. They will get combative when needed though."

(Zeldryn also specifies that tree-hugging wasn't the implication with hippies. More the peace and love vibe. but he's done now.)

Uyoku grins at you.

Speaking to you, Uyoku says, "I get you, the tree hugger thing has been tossed around."

Sideri says, "Like I said, maybe it is healthier not to compare the two, even if eco-terrorist versus treehugger is an appropriately comedic analogy. Not to be too spoilery about the lore, but they may not even have the same views about what this "nature-y" thing is."

Maina says, "Hello. I hate giving IC information OOC in any way, shape, or form, but I am the only Warden most people have probably seen. I want to make it clear that Maina is representative of Wardens only insofar as she is the only active one presently. She is not representative of all of their core philosophies by design, not mistake; things that were meant to be smoothed out by other Wardens who have since stopped playing. They are priests of nature, not very angry, scared children (emotionally, not physically), even if the only active one seems to be the latter more than the former."

Maina asks, "That said, I had a question as well: with the name change, we still have our library. Is lorekeeping still part of the lore or being replaced/removed?"

Uyoku says, "Lorekeeping is still a part of the Wardens, but no longer the main focus as the name used to imply. The idea of the Wardens being the only keepers of some lore has never completely sat well with us."

Uyoku has accepted Maina's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Sideri asks, "Uyoku can of course correct me if this seems wrong, but Wardens are stil druidly guide people. Teachers and voices to the Gaea, frequently ritualists, so in this sense they are a scholarly bunch. Maybe lorekeeping is not super central as to be in the name anymore, but having a library to document their history and magic and teachings is still reasonable?"

Uyoku nods to Sideri.

Maina nods.

Vlora adopts an agreeable expression.

Uyoku says, "Exactly, and to keep records of world events as they happen."

Uyoku says, "Honestly, a lot of stuff has gone down in times past that it would have been nice to have records of."

Sideri asks, "Q: Are they secretive and cagey about everything by intentional design or is that just the players taking that initiative?"

Sideri says, "A: No, they are not intended to be a cagey secretive group, this has been, as far as I have known, player initiated. There is no reason, other than specifics of certain abilities, and the location of their headquarters,, that the Wardens should be so secretive and this is something that I have been attempting to change."

Sideri asks, "I think some of this is the Lorekeeper influence lingering. They are also very small and joining tends to be fairly involved, so it seems there was maybe some frustration about that here?"

Sideri shrugs.

Sideri asks, "Q: Can we get some examples of some of the abilities they get, or at least some hint at the direction of what their abilities support doing mechanically?"

Sideri says, "Some of their abilities are shared with the Udemi, stave to staff, summon mount, brambles, etc, however, some of their specific abilities allow them to work more closely with Gaea in sensing where there are problems and healing it. There are a couple of other abilities that I really can't go into specifics on. That said, I do hope to come up with other abilities that will help to really set them apart and showcase their close use of druidry."

Jirato says, "These questions may be slightly out of order as they were on the BBS as it's split into two topics, some answers from me some from Uyoku."

Sideri asks, "Q: How does divination and fortune telling fit into druidry?"

Sideri says, "A: It doesn't per se, however, akin to druids of old, reading signs and divination is something that was done. Some of the Wardens have taken this up as a thing they do, but it doesn't directly relate to the druidry as we know it in the game."

Sideri says, "Q: Do they have other powers atypical to the druidry we've seen in other guilds? (Asking because their members have linked the IRL pagan library website in the past)."

Sideri says, "A: Some of the abilities Wardens have are shared with the Udemi, but this is hardly a surprise as Udemi use druidry and naturecraft as a tool in their fight against the Resen. The Wardens do lean heavily into rituals and workings to assist in their goals and yes, in some aspects it is similar to Pagan rituals, however, it is not exactly the same. For example, Celtic druids of old used to use sacrifice and blood in many of their rituals, for a pretty obvious reason, blood use in rituals in the lost lands is forbidden by the Wardens."

Sideri says, "As for Wardens linking to a real life Pagan website, I haven't witnessed it myself, nor do I know the explanation given, but I personally don't wish to see this trend continue. I understand wanting to perhaps provide some inspiration for possible rituals and workings, but Warden druidry is not exactly the same as Celtic druidry nor should it be treated as such. CLOK has its own lore and this provides an opportunity for people to be creative within the lore of the game as opposed to real life Pagan or druidic lore."

Sideri says, "In short, to answer the question, yes and no. They use ritual to help facilitate what they want to happen along with druidic techniques and mechanical abilities, but the ritual aspect is all non-mechanically driven. Something may or may not happen as with any roleplay put forth that may change the world."

Sideri says, "Now here are some answered by Jirato."

Sideri asks, "Q: What makes them so different from the other druids we know about?"

Sideri exclaims, "Lore time!"

You beam happily!

Sideri says, "A: They are the only pure "druid" organization within the game. They practice a variation of Fasa druidry, which is most closely similar to the Udemi. However, Udemi are not druids first, but soldiers that utilize Druidry in their fight against resen and pursuit of free will."

Sideri says, "Dwaedn Wyr and Dunwyr druidry is a completely different system. While Dunwyr have a skill called "Druidry" and are able to sense and respond to Fasa communing with the Gaea, they primarily rely on and draw out the power of animals or animal spirits."

Sideri asks, "Q: Where are they intended to fit in the game meta with their abilities and general role (combat, healing, crafting, utility, so on)?"

Sideri says, "A: We do not balance guilds based on abilities, combat, healing, crafting, and utility. They fill a RP role for people wishing to enjoy playing as "druids" without being forced to fight resen and further the Tse Gaiyan cause."

Jirato says, "We touched on that with another person's question earlier today regarding guild balance and such."

Sideri says, "Yes."

Jirato says, "The next post on the BBS I didn't prepare an answer for in advance."

Jirato says, "Darkangel had posed some sorcery and cryomancy related questions. Noctere's really the expert on these subjects, but lets see what I can address."

Jirato asks, "Does getting tainted require your character to be an antagonist?"

Jirato says, "Short answer is no."

Jirato says, "Long answer... let me do this carefully here, I don't typically go into too much detail about something we refer to as "soul purity"."

Jirato says, "It's less to do with being antagonistic and more tendencies for impure deeds and acts. Someone who has more of those tendencies is more succeptible to nether taint, but it COULD potentially happen to a neutral person."

Jirato says, "There are very, VERY, rare occurances, where people have fortified themselves by having opposite tendencies. Those such people would be significantly more resistant or potentially immune to nether taint."

Jirato offers the shiniest talking stick to Gunhild.

Gunhild has accepted Jirato's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Gunhild asks, "So, my question was. what would be considered a... well action or deed able of causing taint?"

Jirato says, "(Generally malicious) types of evil tendencies. You don't have to be an overt homicidal maniac or anything though."

Vlora smiles.

(Dunkin makes finger guns.)

Gunhild asks, "Would getting tainted be noticeable by other chars as in... something changes in your description? or it has to be prooven icly with stuf?"

Jirato says, "I'm not willing to divulge that information at this time, that'd be for someone who gets tainted to find out."

Aelarra quietly asks, "Can you provide roughly, a few examples of actions that are liable to get you tainted?"

Jirato says, "There's really no any one action, it's more of a lifestyle showing continuous tendencies towards impurity. I will clarify one way NOT to get tainted is to try to force nether into your open wounds, etc. People try to ritual that from time to time and it always ends poorly. Channeling sorcery and hanging out near nether hotspots isn't the same as having it bind with your soul."

Sideri says, "I cannot speak to Jirato's feelings, but personally am very hesitant to provide any of these guideline kinds of answers. It is more immersive and...real-feeling if being tainted or pure is not some kind of checklist or rubric or such for characters. Play them as you will and maybe something interesting will happen."

Jirato says, "Sideri has a point."

Jirato says, "We see and notice people approaching it as a goal on their checklist."

Maina asks, "I know a lot of the details of these things have never been public (though I would like similar guidelines for the other character states like infested or canim, if I'm honest?), so my question is related but different: some guilds are more inclined to what may (or may not) count as 'impure'. I have struggled with whether to ritual these actions to make GMs aware. If a character does impure things like (as examples unrelated to any particular character) perform autopsies or literally bathe in blood as creepy evil people, should those be ritualed for GMs to be aware of impure actions taking place, or would GMs prefer not to be subjected to gross creepy things?"

Jirato says, "And that's pretty much a way to get us to not weigh any actions as heavily. It's pretty obvious one someone is trying something in short bursts of a "lets see what new power I can acquire" rather than making it their character's lifestyle."

Jirato says, "I'd really rather people not treat afflictions as goals to work for period. They're nice when they happen, but they shouldn't really be expected."

Jirato says, "If a third of the MUD was canim, a third was symbiant, and a third was tainted..."

Jirato says, "It'd not really be as special..."

Jirato says, "So when you ritual bathing in blood and such. You're mostly just setting off alarms that "This person is really trying hard to be tainted or be influenced by the blood god". It requires a more subtle, constant touch."

Maina says, "I suppose my question could be taken more broadly as 'when is ritual appropriate and do GMs even want to see that kind of thing' but it seemed also tangentally related to tainting."

Jirato has accepted Maina's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Vlora says, "I have 2 questions. First, I know that people used rook revivals to get tainted mechanically but that was changed. Is it reflected on the lore that rook revivals became safer, or is there still an in lore reason for people to get tainted, even if it's a smaller chance. Second question is the tainted affliction is known publicly, so what is the general's feelings towards those who are known to have been tainted."

Jirato says, "Soul retrieval was intended to leave a lingering temporary taint but the code didn't really anticipate people spamming it over and over to force a permanent taint or go beyond a certain threshhold. At the time, rather than fixing this oversight and adding appropriate safeguards and coutnermeasures it was simply disabled due to limited time available to work on the code. It's something we'll need to revisit at some point to make it more lore appropriate."

Jirato says, "As for the second question, I don't really understand. Do you mean the general NPC populace's oppinion of tainted characters? That'd really vary from location to location."

Vlora says, "Oh, what I meant is are there prejudices in general. like, oh that guy got tainted... he probably shouldn't be trusted etc."

Jirato says, "I can imagine there's some of that. If you're really obvious about it."

Dunkin says, "So, I have been feeling guilty about a thing for a long time that contains a question - forgive me Dev for I have sinned - and this seems like a cool time to ask. I was on the receiving end of some GM awesomeness, for which I am very grateful. I've seen posts from many staff, though Nocty may be the most recent, expressing a staff-based frustration with players who get some new buff and then stop playing. I feel guilty because I feel like I may be perceived as having done that. Where in actuality, it's that, for about a dozen reasons (ic, ooc, and in between) the character on whom I got the cool GM thing isn't the right one for me to play. Is there some way the staff would like someone in my position to reach out and express why that character isn't the main? I just don't want to act like I got a shiny new toy and I'm not going to play with it anymore, but I also don't want to feel guilty for not playing that character (or the game) on the heels of some intentionality from staff."
Dunkin explains, "It came from us all talking about acquisition of taint. I guess I was asking, what can we as players do, if we receive something like a taint or an affliction, to make the GMs not think that it was... a bad idea?"

Jirato says, "I mean, we understand that there's many reasons why people might quit playing one of their characters."

Jirato says, "I don't think that really bothers us that much? Afflictions aren't really special awards to be given to star players or antyhing. I thought you were talking about items."

Jirato says, "But it goes back to what I was saying about ritualling yourself bathing in blood and stuff."

Jirato says, "If you set off our "this person is trying to game the systam to get a cool ability" sensor, we're not really going to pay it much attention. That's why I say a more subtle and consistent form of RP is the way to go about it if you really want to go down that path."

Jirato says, "But yeah, if you have some sort of afflicted character that you have shelved, I'm not really sore over you not playing them anymore. I don't even know who you're talking about."

Jirato says, "Loona and Sideri will be around to answer stuff still I think. Okay, Darkangel's second question regarding Cryomancy manipulation, does it affect the cold in the environment or can it be used to freeze objects."

Uyoku says, "I will as well."

Jirato says, "There's been some inconsistencies with this the past that we've tried to fix."

Jirato says, "I think, could be wrong here, but my belief, and I'm the dev so I guess that makes it right, heh. Is that it manipulates the current environment, while it can be used to freeze objects, such a freeze would be temporary for as long as you're channeling cryomancy or mayhaps a very very brief time after, but not much after that."

Jirato says, "Noctere's the real exper on both sorcery and cryomancy and he's not with us tonight so may ahve to get further clarification from him if I'm wrong."

Jirato offers the shiniest talking stick to Loona.

Loona has accepted Jirato's offer and is now holding the shiniest talking stick.

Loona waves his shiniest talking stick around.

Sideri says, "It has been established before the freezing is, as with all channeling, not super precise. No using cryomancy to freeze an entire bridge over a river or the like please."

[[IMPORTANT LORE]]

Loona says, "Well, icecream actually is possible."

Loona says, "Just not with cryomancy."


(In response to a question if emoting that snowflakes spiraled around a character when they activated freezing aura, and whether that's lore-acceptable behavior) Speaking to Vlora, Loona says, "Sure, but it really shouldn't be something that is overblown. For instance, causing the bench you're sitting on to freeze over."

Speaking to Loona, Kelsus says, "I was just wondering if a deep blue or violet flame was something that is considered for masters of pyromancy. A flame of a more intense heat then an orange flame. If this topic has been brought up before I did not know."

Loona says, "I do think colors for various fires has been done in the past, when perks from donating were made available, so I want to say yes? Just not something that is taught through the guild."

Sideri says, "Pyromancers can indeed mechanically change the color of their fire."

Loona nods.

Vlora says, "Oh yeah."

Loona says, "Yeah with fireworks, almost forgot."

Gunhild asks, "Can they change them in the fire they hurl at enemies though? like, spraying green flames or whatever color?"

You simply mutter, "Note to self. invent trademarks in the quarantine. trademark the color sapphire."

Loona says, "As I said before, I'm fairly certain it has been done before, but if I recall, there's nothing in the description of a pyromancy attack that shows the color of the actual flame."

Maina says, "We did have a big thing a few years ago about free-form uses of magic, like shaping nether into a rose or what-not, and the consensus then was "if you do not have an ability to do it, you can't; free-form magic is only the purview of a rare few legendary NPCs." I assume this is still relevant? (first line of: https://clok.contrarium.net/bbs/viewtop ... ilit=sound)."

Loona nods.

Sideri says, "Correct."

Speaking to Kelsus, Sideri asks, "It might be possible, there is evidence to suggest as much, but maybe try opening a thread about it, mention the already-existing fireworks, and maybe Jirato will respond with a more definitive yes or no?"

Kissa leans toward you and whispers, "I still think parren-blue suits you better, you know?"

Kissa winks at you.

Loona says, "If you have the ability to make pyrotechnics, sure."

You say, "Or you could just tell people you do blue flames. then they can imagine your flames as blue. as long as you have the ability to, say, make the fireworks, i'd say that qualifies you as being able to make different color fire."

Speaking to Loona, you seriously say, "Great minds, moon-san."

Artus asks, "Can the same thing be said to some prop rp like a char popping nonexistence object to feed a horse, for example?"

Loona says, "We would prefer if the prop existed."

Gunhild nods.

Safiyah says, "Like my... 200 apples."

Safiyah beams happily!

Kissa confusedly admits, "This is something I am uncertain of, as well, and I would like some feedback, if one of you would not mind. ritualling, how to ritual, so, and so. I would love, really love to do more related to dancing, kebyet, such and such, but I'm afraid to randomly ritual in an empty inn room populated by npcs because I do not know what to assume if I get no gm response, afterawds. icly, I mean. would it be acceptable to assume that no one was paying attention or that I did not get so much praise?"

Loona says, "Your rituals and thoughts get sent to us in emails as well."

Sideri says, "I personally like seeing rituals and thoughts of all kinds. It is nice to know what characters are doing, and it can make for nice story fuel in the moment or for later. I am also however the newest gm, so if we have a more official stance on it, this is said in ignorance of it."

Loona says, "As for deciding when or what to ritual, a response isn't garanteed, and how we can even react might be limited anyway. So just keep it in mind. You might ritual trying to wash a certain blood mark somewhere so we know it's been attempted for example, and so we can remove it from the location."

Loona says, "But ritualling eating a plate of flapjacks is probably not something we want it used for."

Loona says, "I haven't known anybody to get punished for using thoughts or ritual, so of course, it's up to your best judgement."

You say, "I tend accompany mine with a relative thought."

You say, "If I, for example, ritual punching a wall or tree out of frustration, i'll often think about what's frustrating Zel as I do it. For context."



The rest sort of devolves into rambling from there, as the meeting officially ended past this point.


Hope the log is useful, everybody! Much spam was removed in the making of this summary.

[glare]

4 things came up or provoked thought about during this meeting that I believe to be actionable:

1. Consistant enforcement.
J apologized for letting the plot slip a bit where enforcement of Haiban's antagonism towards certainf actions is concerned. I'm pretty happy to accept this as alright. Given though that Jirato's responsibilities are a bit wider than the other gurus. Would it be possible to get a subguru for this area of the game?

2. NPCmail and interaction.
It doesn't sound as though the method for handling NPCmail is time efficient for GMs. Or something that effort would like to be put into but that time is a factor. Personally I would like to see the GM team set up in such a way that one person is responsible for coordinating NPCmail, rituals and thinks and thats their main responsibility.

It was mentioned that thinks / rituals for example are bundled into an email for everyone to see? This doesn't seem efficient to me. 5 people looking at the same list of tasks tends to result in a lengthier process than one person looking at a list and building a task list for the other manager's to tackle ore reject individually since Clok's management seems to be organized around areas of influence, aka (the guru list). Rather than around areas of operation.

I'm aware this may come across as a little pedantic. but I don't believe the explanation that NPCs are busy holds enough water to the relative void of responses. From my observations its not just one or two NPCmails that have gone unanswered. Most of these NPCs are heads of organisations yes. i agree, to me this means that they are more likely to respond not less. Much like Locke's office, they would have a secretary to handle the stuff they saw as unimportant since at the end of the day, their responsibilities are wide and so are much more likely to involve what they're mail concerns than not. A lack of response to these kinds of communications only indicates lack of concern and results in things like the Locke Irwin Shadyness being intensified in the gossip mills

From another standpoint. This also results in both me as the player and my character not using these methods of discourse and just reporting that his superiors don't concern themselves with us little people. For the coalition especially, this kind of reputation would be fairly damaging IMO.

In addition, as of writing I have never had a ritual or a think responded to in any fashion I can recognize. If they were and I missed it somehow I apologize.

For me, speaking into the void is far, far worse than getting a rejection letter, or a negative response from a ritual. I'm sure no one will argue that Everyone, Gms included hates wasted effort. But a rejection or a bad outcome is just as valid RP as a positive outcome.

3. Help files.
We didn't touch on this directly from what I saw / remember and i'm saying this with fondness so please don't imagine that i'm being aggressive but Clok's help file situation bro. Its like the worst I have ever seen for such a great game. Like yes there are worse help file situations out there but those tend to be for games that are also equally terrible.

IN short, Clok is too good a game to have this glaring hole in its fabric. Other muds tend to harness their player base to help remedy this kind of situation but could we action something in the medium future to finally plug this leak please?

4. Lore
There were several emotes. Usually from our plucky thief about loving lore that have been removed from the log for spam-type reasons. Again, the playerbase has a lot of knowledge that could be shared but I would for one like to be able to find this lore in game. Could Organisations have player submissable journals or something? So that in 5 years Jirato doesn't have to hold another Tse Gaiyan meeting to remind us what Tse Gaiyan lit nuam means?

boards are imperminant and things like the report box some guilds have might be alright. But it would be great to join a guild and then pick up a journal of Bilbo Haggins the udemi thief ranger who returned the flaming ring to mount doom and all the lore he collected from his journey on the way.

This method is far more organic and creates a clear line of what you know IC versus things like the BBS where the lore that can be used IC has caveats of how the char learned it and to what detail.

and thats all I got.
Thanks for reading

[Ruta]

Real belated, but I realized I never said thank you. Thanks Zeldryn for posting the logs, and thanks GMs for answering my questions about Wardens and clearing things up. It looks like I'll never get my Jedi reflexes from druidry foresight powers, but overall I'm happy with all the answers that were given and it put some concerns to rest.