The Dangers of Dying

[Alila]

Hi,
Maybe this seems like too mean or restrictive of an idea, but would it ever be considered to add some kind of cumulative penalty to gaining skills, or the current skills, or something similar for the second death someone experiences in a very short amount of time? Even if it were only for the non-player depart methods, maybe it would encourage players to be a little less reckless, and if being reckless is ic, to rp through the consequences? It is very polite and nice to have not-player required resurrection methods, but paying the debt between deaths seems to be not too much trouble most of the time, and this would only be for multiple deaths within minutes or hours of each other, to encourage player to relax, breathe, or at least return somewhere with friends, and either way encourage more rp? Sorry if this seems unreasonable, but hopefully it is given some consideration, if it is not already something there and I simply have yet to experience it.
Thank you,
-Alila

[Lun]

I think that would be pretty good. Like a hidden timer after dying once for a few hours if you die again you begin to feel your thoughts move more sluggish and have restricted skillgains for a visible timer to encourage people to remain in town for a bit.

[Nobody]

I recall something vague to the effect that that particular method's costs were dependant on total skill points and the number of times utilized. I may be mis-remembering though.

[Maina]

On the one hand, it is lore that Undying get reckless and dangerous. On the other, hearing people treat death as no big deal and saving the same person three times in an hour is not the most super fun RP, so I think doing something to make people pause and think twice would make the game a more fun place.

[Vaelin]

As one of those people who generally have a wreckless char or two. This is actually a good idea.

[Alila]

That is very true, Maina. There is still opportunity for recklessness in the undying, particularly in the first suggestion for the skill gains penalty, but it is also lore that dying has a cost. The suggestion is that maybe that cost is not entirely in the riln, but also something to do with the soul, as it is being pulled back from a strange between place not once, but multiple times in quick succession?

[Maina]

I should have made it more clear (posting while sleep deprived is likely unwise): I'm largely agreeing with the idea. I would apply it even to retrievals, if I'm honest.

My mention of lore was only intended to be in response to "if recklessness is IC," not a contradiction or disagreement.

I like the idea.

[Vaelin]

Maybe, it's going to be dependent to your total number of deaths in general... consider it soul scarring or something. At least this will be friendlier to the newbies who are still learning how stuff works.

[Alila]

Maina, sorry, I did not mean to imply you did not. Maybe we were both only being lore nerds. :)

More generally, I was really worried it might feel like a punishing suggestion, or something that might feel discouraging, or unfair. It is super reassuring to see some agreement from all of you. :D

Vaelin, while that is maybe an interesting idea, it is maybe not so much in the spirit of this one, if that makes any sense? The idea was to promote short-term stretches of down-time or planning between deaths, as a method of encouraging character interaction of one kind or another, while staying with lore that is already established about what death means to an undying. Maybe a longer lasting kind of death-tracking system would not be as helpful for this? However, this is also a friendly suggestion discussion, and if you had some reasoning for how the two might be related, it would be wonderful to read it!

Thank you!

-Alila

[gralkik]

Death has serious consequences already if you choose the other options other than player retrieval. Even a player retrieval is a disruption to a person's ability to play for sometimes close to 15 or to a half an hour. This is a game. Do you want to have the burden of forcing players, who may not want to RP with others at any given time, perhaps for OOC reasons? For instance: people just don't want to be bothered by other people because sometimes dealing with people can be too much. Also, consider that sometimes you walk into the room and you're immediately one-shotted. Now you're forced to sit somewhere you don't want to be and RP for hours on end. That sounds more like someone just quit. The consequence of death is significant enough, without forcing people to have to mingle with people for RP for hours before they can do anything game related. These are my thoughts on the matter.

[Tenoji]

Now you're forced to sit somewhere you don't want to be and RP for hours on end. That sounds more like someone just quit. The consequence of death is significant enough, without forcing people to have to mingle with people for RP for hours before they can do anything game related.

I didn't want to comment on this thread because I come from a background of almost exclusively permadeath muds. Including ones where you can get one-shot, with little to no warning and lose literal months of progress in an instant. And I have few qualms with that particular design.

I just want to point out, this particular quote sounds like a gross over-estimation of what is being proposed. You would have to die a minimum of 2 times in close succession to see any effect. Also, the effect doesn't sound limiting enough to warrant doing absolutely nothing but RP until it wears off. Especially if it limits skillgains, and not your actual skill level.

Personally, I'd want a much harsher system that deducts skillpoints at random on death. But I don't see that fitting the theme or intent of the mud from my experience so far.

There's a tremendous amount of flexibility in what has been suggested thus far, especially if these effects are cumulative rather than static. You'd need to die 4-6 times within a reasonably close space of one another to see death gimp you to the point of just sitting in a room somewhere. At least, that is what I got from reading this thread thus far.

I personally and used to (and in favor of) more harsher punishments to failure and death, but again I don't necessarily think that fits here nor do I want to push my personal ideals. I will say, I do understand not everyone has equal amounts of time to play, and mechanics that limit your ability to do what you want to do in the time you have to do it can feel especially punishing for people with small windows of free time. As long as these timers can tick down while offline (Maybe put a delay of like 30 minutes to an hour on it, to discourage just logging out after X amount of deaths) I think it would not over-punish those with limited windows.

Additionally, this encourages people getting together to tackle things you might otherwise just bash your head against until you succeed. Which, I'm all down for.

And since I've already started rambling.

Maybe, it's going to be dependent to your total number of deaths in general... consider it soul scarring or something. At least this will be friendlier to the newbies who are still learning how stuff works.

This doesn't feel newb friendly to me, in the long run. As new people who really don't know what they're doing are likely to rack up a higher total deathcount, early on. Which leads to them being negatively impacted should they stick around. This sort of mechanic I think would be better to losing skillpoints based on deaths accrued, rather than an increasing debuff. (However, I don't think anyone is going to go for getting their skillpoints shot on death.)

Here's where I shut up.

[Vazbol]

Not sure if this is IC info, but it's mentioned in one of the changelogs for this year or last year. It's already possible to lose skill points on death if the dice don't roll your way on one of the revival options. There's actually mechanics to avoiding it, but I think that's ic info. Something for a suicidally curious individual to research. As well, the other revival method is as equally dangerous to take, especially if the death was a cvc one.

I'm not really a fan of punative progression penalties for death, but can support ones that just slow progress. Take this; Would you rather lose days or hours of work on a death, or a brief nerf to skill gain while maintaining all your points? Granted, this is already a case if you go and die in a far off place. The time to being hauled back and revived can take a while, or whenever one is rescued by the random revival service when players don't' get to you.

Also feel like a penalty atop waiting would just discourage exploration and risk taking. This might especially come up during events or RP situation, people probably wanting to avoid conflict to avoid skill learning penalties if one might die more than once. Missing stuff and waiting to get revived is already penalty enough in this situation.

[gralkik]

Also feel like a penalty atop waiting would just discourage exploration and risk taking. This might especially come up during events or RP situation, people probably wanting to avoid conflict to avoid skill learning penalties if one might die more than once. Missing stuff and waiting to get revived is already penalty enough in this situation.

As a player who was in an Event's Situation Death, there were times where I waited for over an hour to be resurrected; this, in itself, can be very disruptive, especially when the time to play is very limited or short. I've seen people who have died and just not returned to play at all for days, weeks, or years.

I just want to point out, this particular quote sounds like a gross over-estimation of what is being proposed.

I glossed over what was said because I was pointing out vaguely what it means right now without divulging IC information regarding the current death mechanics. There are options, that's all I will say, that is quite severe should you not wish to be raised by a player. The harshest being Permadeath. Also, players do not have to retrieve you if they do not want to; It is, for the large part, out of courtesy.

[Alila]

Hi,

Thank you for the disagreements; They help as much as the encouragement in their own way! But there were a few points that seemed worth addressing, at the risk of maybe feeling pedantic:
*takes a deep breath*
$apologize Sorry for how long this is. But these are all comments with very strong feelings, and it only seems fair to try and devote attention to them.


"Now you're forced to sit somewhere you don't want to be and RP for hours on end.":

Well, firstly, maybe a time was never specified? Secondly, this is not forcing anyone to do anything they do not already play Clok and are expected to do by policy 1? This is mainly staying in character--not even demanding rp. In no way would it limit continue to do tasks, gather herbs, find wood, help others, or any of a very long list of things. This is why it seemed okay to suggest hurting skill gains but not skills themselves? The hope was that, after dying repeatedly several times to something, the game will nudge that person in the direction of...maybe it would be a more productive idea to try something else for a little while. Maybe that is rp, maybe that is stockpiling material for future projects, maybe it is finishing tasks for guild points in a guild, even, if you feel your character is the risk-taking kind. The risk is, of course, that at some point, if they continue to die, that skill gaining penalty grows a little more insistent in the background every time and makes a break seem a little more appealing. As it should! We are not all skill grinding hermit machines in real life, and it seems silly to be so in a game that thrives on rp and lore. But neither would this immediately punish anyone for it! It is like real life: it is possible to postpone that crash through willpower and stamina, but eventually it will catch up with you. Here, the player has the opportunity to make a character's lows and highs feel narratively significant?


"The harshest being Permadeath.":

Um, this seems a little bit misleading. Permanent death is certainly an option. But barring very serious RP circumstances, permanent dying is an entirely voluntary decision?


"Also feel like a penalty atop waiting would just discourage exploration and risk taking. This might especially come up during events or RP situation, people probably wanting to avoid conflict to avoid skill learning penalties if one might die more than once. Missing stuff and waiting to get revived is already penalty enough in this situation.":

This is maybe an interesting comment I had not considered. Please tell me if it is being misinterpreted? Dying in events certainly means losing the personal experience of the event, but there is always rp to find afterward. Maybe a character is interested in discovering what happened, or they awaken #angry, #defeated, or #fearful? Sometimes, circumstances can be their own reward!

These are not empty words, either--promise. Alila has died in events before, and there was waiting to be had, but with the reassurance of ic interaction afterward. Some of the most moving moments in Clok happen in a church, and this is also a subtle way of keeping those visits fresh and unique and interesting because if there is a slightly more long term risk to death, then that will hopefully make them more meaningful, whether they happen more often or not--maybe this is something a character really really really cares about and feels the need to be reckless over, no matter the consequences?

Maybe something that is worth considering is how much would a skill gainin penalty truly keep you from doing, unless you are that player who feels the need to eek out every tiny scrap of gain from everything ever? How many other things on Clok are there to do that are not rp--if, as Gralkik pointed out, is it not something you are currently interested in--and not entirely focused around gaining skill? Maybe this is inaccurate, but sometimes artisans mention needing to decide between gaining skill or forging interesting things? is it really so bad if, after a traumatic series of deaths, someone took the time to organize their workshop, or finish some easier commissions, or something else entirely? With the favored suggestion for skill gaining penalties, skills themselves would not be penalized, only advancement in them.

Lastly, please please remember this suggestion is for, very exclusively, multiple and frequent deaths, not for a single one?

Again, thank you to everyone for being so willing to share their opinions and feelings about the suggestion, and hopefully some of this reply helps!

-Alila

[Sneaky]

You could introduce a mechanic that works in reverse of the weighted rolls, so instead of being weighted upwards they're weighted downwards. This means failing more often, which in turn means reduced skillgains, though only if you continue fighting things at the peek of your potential, if you step it down you could still succeed and maintain your skillgain. You could also just wait it out and return to what you were doing once you feel you've shaken the Ire of the powers that be. This could be applied to a character after dying twice within an hour. Just my suggestion. You could even have it be that the character in question has suffered traumatic experiences very quickly, and their mental state is suffering for it. I hope that helps.

[Tenoji]

You could introduce a mechanic that works in reverse of the weighted rolls, so instead of being weighted upwards they're weighted downwards. This means failing more often, which in turn means reduced skillgains, though only if you continue fighting things at the peek of your potential, if you step it down you could still succeed and maintain your skillgain. You could also just wait it out and return to what you were doing once you feel you've shaken the Ire of the powers that be. This could be applied to a character after dying twice within an hour. Just my suggestion. You could even have it be that the character in question has suffered traumatic experiences very quickly, and their mental state is suffering for it. I hope that helps.

I have a tendency to think of most suggestions from a perspective of "How can this be abused, and how likely is it." The primary reason I am wary of this particular idea, the way it's presented, is it can potentially reward someone for dying by giving them the opportunity to lower their rolls (even temporarily) to go fight something they wouldn't normally get meaningful skillgains off of. I can already think of numerous ways this can be a boon rather than a hindrance. Would people intentionally grind themselves into dust to do so? I dunno.

[Maina]

Weighted don't benefit skill gain at all. Your maximum roll is the same, but you're more likely to fail, making gains worse, not better.

Much like abilities like Lightfoot do not increase your maximum dice pool, just weight your rolls to be closer to your maximum, making you succeed more often without lowering your gains when you succeed.

Think of skill debuffs like "lower your skill by 100" and roll weighting like "roll twice and take the worst result" (not saying that's exactly how the code works, this is just to illustrate).

[Sneaky]

Thanks Maina, I had typed out a response, and then saw your post. Though I think the way weighted rolls work on CLOK is by raising your floor. So if you have 500 dodge and your light with the lightfoot ability, you may only ever be able to roll above 50 rather than 0, or something to that effect. It's just my suspicion though.