Why I Stopped Playing CLOK

[Elystole]

The first time I stopped playing CLOK I was in a bad spot in my life and suffering from burnout so I didn't say anything. This time my life is fantastic, but I just stopped logging into CLOK and never felt the urge to log back in. I've advised other people to voice their concerns as otherwise nothing changes, so to avoid hypocrisy here are my thoughts.

The short version is that I stopped playing CLOK because it isn't fun. I'm a busy guy and I value my leisure time, but CLOK simply hasn't been delivering. Instead it feels like work. CLOK was fun when I started playing two years ago, but there have been several changes that have eroded the fun. I don't think I am alone in this considering the state of the population.

That alone isn't helpful, so please allow me to elaborate:

Grinding is a problem common to almost all skill-based games where improvement is based on individual rolls instead of tasks completed like with experience-based games, but CLOK has the worst grind that I have ever seen. You don't gain skills effectively from just playing, so you have people trying to figure out how to milk the system to maximize their gains. I see that as a fundamental design flaw where instead of being able to play the game people have to work the game to get the skills they need to later play. If gains flowed more naturally, people would have less incentive to grind. Unfortunately, rather than accept the fact that the game is grindy and take steps to make it less grindy, it seems staff has instead taken the approach that people who are grinding are playing the game "wrong" so they decided to make grinding harder.

I'm sure we've all encountered places where people who are trying to get from point A to point B decide to cut across a field instead of using a sidewalk that takes a longer, circuitous route. There are three responses to this problem:
A. Realize that your sidewalks is in a bad place and put one where people will use it to increase their satisfaction and spare your grass.
B. Leave things as they are but accept that people are going to cut across the field.
C. Raise a fence to try and deter people from cutting across the field. If that doesn't work, electrify the fence.

It seems like CLOK has chosen Option C. With the predictable result that people are looking at the fence between them and their destination and saying, "Nah. Too much work," and playing elsewhere.

The original problem is that the skill gains in CLOK are tiny and the range that gives skill gains is also tiny. This means that people have a narrow range of things that they can actually do to improve their skills and simply playing the game doesn't work. Good luck raising your dodge skill when you kill things. Or your weapon skill. Or anything, really, because you're rewarded, again, not for actual kills but rolls. The same thing applies to crafting in that it makes more sense to make literally hundreds of flasks than it does to make more complicated items because you get more rolls making lots of flasks than you do armor.

So the best way to gain combat skills is to beat up mobs with practice weapons or stand there for hours just defending.

But CLOK makes this more difficult because of how healing works. It is easy to get seriously injured in CLOK, but it takes a long time to heal. One bad roll means you're now sitting around for twenty minutes waiting for your poultices to work before you can get back to training. For those of us who were trying to play the game, spending twenty minutes of downtime for five minutes of actually playing was a bad trade. Especially when you need hundreds of successful, not just any roll but successful rolls, for appreciable gains.

So things started getting janky: People trained offense in defensive tactics because it reduced their chances of getting hurt. People trained defense in offensive tactics because, while they were still getting hit more, the weaker mobs do less damage than the crazy mobs at higher skill levels with their special abilities, devastating attacks, or other shenanigans. And people who were supposed to be light armor combatants were training in heavy armor because it reduced their chances of getting hurt.

Unfortunately, the GMs, instead of looking at this situation and saying, "Wow. Our game is really, really grindy. Maybe we should fix that?" doubled-down on the situation:
No more offensive skill gains if you are in a defensive tactic!
No more defensive skill gains if you are in an offensive tactic!
That mob is too good for training because it has many weak attacks? No more gains from that mob's attacks at all!
Trying to dodge in heavy armor so that you aren't constantly getting serious wounds? An encumbrance penalty will fix that!
Trying to carry loot and dodge? Again: Encumbrance penalty!
Trying to heal yourself so that you don't have to kidnap a monk or run to town every five minutes? Poultices are now gated behind an ability! And it's not like poultices were easy before. You had to invest hours into running all over the map, getting herbs, preparing herbs, and making poultices. It takes hours of work maintaining your equipment before you can actually play.

And the above are just some examples of a wider trend to nerf fast, nerf hard, and nerf often. I can't speak to the specifics of the other guilds, but I imagine it is similar to my experience with the Outriders. I won't go into details unless someone asks, but revolver fanning got nerfed to the point of being worthless. I don't say that lightly. I mean the new revolver fanning with its reduced rate of fire, low accuracy, and high chance of misfire is less useful than just shooting. That stung because revolver fanning seemed to be the reward for sticking by my RP for all those months when I was getting no support and was being ganked by senior players, but at least it was neat and special?

Then it got generalized. Generalized abilities were sold to us as a way to give players more flexibility with their characters so I was willing to give it a shot, but then a lot of stuff that people were already doing that was integral to their characters got either given away or gated behind new abilities. Elystole in particular saw outdoor survival, skinning, leatherworking, and poultices gated. Tracking had new requirements added to it. I felt more restricted after generalized abilities than I did before.

Honestly, that is how CLOK has felt for a while now: Things just keep getting taken away from players while existing problems are left unresolved. Leatherworking and mining have been broken for at least two years, since I started playing, but rather than fix those things we got more nerfs. You still can't get more than 10 ranks of swimming. Mounted combat wasn't giving proper gains until recently (and I haven't been able to test it to confirm that it is really working). The wolves and bears near Shadgard went away without there being a replacement source of pelts. Gad's mine went away without their being a replacement source of rare ores and gems. I am sure myself or other people can think of more examples.

But we have development time for generalized abilities and combat changes that penalize players for trying to train their skills in a skill-based game. We don't have development time for things that make the game more fun, but we have development time for things that make the game feel more like work.

And that is the crux of the issue: Repeatedly, in discussions with other players, I have asked them, "What are the GMs thinking?"

It was an honest question. I work on a software engineering team now, and what drives our decisions regarding the services we provide the university - even though most of our customers don't pay us - is the value generated for the customer. We need to make their jobs easier and more pleasant. On a game, customer value is how much fun they are having, so to the extent that the changes to CLOK have made the game less fun than it was two years ago I have honestly wondered what the GMs were thinking.

Did they think it would somehow make things more fun? What other problems were they trying to resolve? What kind of game are they trying to make here?

If I knew the answer to those questions, I might be able to make sense of what has been going on. But I don't, and I can't, so the only thing left for me to do is take my ball (and my $20/month) and play elsewhere.

[artus]

I admittedly have no problem of how clok is, though have to second the fact that clok is too grindy sometimes. Or may be I just always take things casually so I don't feel much, may be.

But there are actually some certain things I don't like about Clok, rather than it being a bit too grindy in certain time. Some skills are hard to get started, or need more balance. (I remember someone told me once about how frustrating it was to train hafted and didn't go as fast as swords or daggers. And I've expirienced myself that some certain skills are hard for real to gain, say, forging for example. I have 100 something arrowheads forging now but i still can't make a piece).

Other than that, what I don't like is the fact that something is "strict of what and how they are". May be one can't be good, and can't be good at all of one thing, but it doesn't mean they "can't know a single bit of it" from anyone, if they wanted too or someone wanted too. I don't want to see things stricted by "mechanical lock that keeps it 0". I prefer rping to not know it.

Another thing I second Elystol, is the thing about generalization getting the fun out of the game itself. Some certain abilities take too much requirement to achieve, and as we all know, a point of skill jump on Clok takes forever, so it's basically forever+forever+forever+forever*250 more forevers to get one ability, and some certain abilities require this ability, +that ability, and this+that ability require this amount of skill gain. Some ability aren't even what i consider ability at all, like herbalism focus or some bushcraft abilities). Some skills themselves are super hard to train, and that takes another +forever*forever to the tsill timing. Oh and one funny fact, why does mitigate have to need ripost anyway? It's not even about swords man, seriously.

But as confirmation after all this, I'm not going away from Clok, and I won't ever.

[Tamsin]

Although I still play Clok, the issue outlined by Elystole about grinding is one I've noticed personally, but couldn't describe myself adequately. It does feel like work instead of fun for me.

[Skjotur]

I still play and am happy with how things are overall. There are things I'm not happy with but nothing show stopping, and I also know things will continue to change. I'll still comment on a few things.

Grinding is boring, yes. I remember when 100 was considered a high skill level. At least now there's a cap now so we actually have a stopping point but it's so high in the clouds that I don't think I'll ever get to it, I'm okay where I'm at. My offense skills used to make me one of the most dangerous characters in the game. Now they are unremarkable because people had no reason to stop grinding and every reason to continue while I never took the time to keep grinding them after a point. Thankfully I can use stealth and I did grind dodge a little longer so I do all right. And thankfully power grinder people can feel that at least they can stop grinding at some point. On the flip side I wouldn't be surprised if some people were upset that they have to stop at the cap.

Leatherworking yes, I would love the fixes to item weights and to how the products appear based on what they were made of.

I do like the ability gates for the most part. How many trackers would we have if people could just pick it without requiring other bushcraft things first. It might come in useful someday so why not? I like that people have abilities if they fit their character's skillbase and not just because they give them the best advantages and I think a skill tree or ability tree in this case helps that. Unpopular stance probably, but that's how I feel. Without the gates people will just take all the best ones because they're good and the GMs will try and find another way to prevent people from minmaxing and then there will be more people angry with more nerfs.

I understand the complaints about getting hit and having to heal. I don't care to sit in combat all day so I don't experience it much but I feel you. Lately untreated bandages can take care of most of my wounds while I do other things like forage, track, hunt for meat and cook it, craft, interact with other people. If I had a mind to seriously grind fighting skills it would probably bother me more. As of now it feels right for me but I get that it will be a lot worse for people who are grinding combat.

I think the biggest issue is the grind and how we are expected to handle that. A lot of changes and nerfs go in related to the grind, and if we didn't have to grind combat as much we wouldn't have to deal with the wounds as often so that would be less an issue. What would CLOK be like if the skills gained 25x as fast? This is a serious question, I don't know the answer. Would people get to cap and get bored? Would people get to cap and then roleplay like crazy? Would people get mad that everyone caps the same so nobody can feel they're the superior one? Would the code team be able to focus on other things and be happy since everyone is going to get to cap pretty quick anyway so who cares how they get to it? When 100 seemed like it was the unofficial cap way back when, it didn't seem like it would be a fast road, it was exciting to work toward it, especially because you felt you could move on to new things after that. Now 100 is considered newbie range and while I'm glad there's a cap now, I don't think I'll ever get close to it. For one it would be boring, for two I am already okay with my skill levels at least in combat. I won't be even close to the best fighter in the world and I shouldn't be. Skjotur is a survivalist and a scout, and a saboteur when necessary, not a warrior of legend. Guile and cunning over skill at killing makes situations interesting for me when I can't just fight my way through them.

[Elystole]

I think the biggest issue is the grind and how we are expected to handle that. A lot of changes and nerfs go in related to the grind, and if we didn't have to grind combat as much we wouldn't have to deal with the wounds as often so that would be less an issue. What would CLOK be like if the skills gained 25x as fast? This is a serious question, I don't know the answer.

This is something that I have put a lot of thought into, and for my own game I've thought of a system that doesn't use experience or skills-gains in the traditional sense to eliminate the grind entirely.

That won't work in CLOK, not without a total overhaul, but I did have some other ideas:

Make weapons, all weapons, give the same gains per round instead of per attack. Split up the per round gains to the individual attacks if you want, but heavy weapons with one attack should improve as quickly as light weapons with five attacks. Do the same thing for critters' attacks so that dodging a golem's slam teaches as much as dodging a badger's rake attacks (instead of eliminating gains for rake attacks).

Award skill gains for failures. If you want to see players testing themselves against more difficult mobs instead of grinding weaker mobs to dust, you need to reward taking risks instead of simply punishing grinding. It also eliminates the "I am just wasting my time" feeling that comes from whiffing a bunch of rolls (which also penalizes slower weapons more than quick ones). People typically learn more from pushing themselves and failing than constantly succeeding anyways.

Expand the range of skills that teach. It is infuriating when you put in the time and effort to train but are not seeing the gains because some combat modifier or just luck pushed one of your rolls outside the narrow gains window.

Roll back the stances changes. What purpose did that change serve except to punish players?

Actually, I'd combine these suggestions into a whole new approach for skill gain that calculates and awards skill gains on a round-per-round basis and not on individual rolls. Did you attack with your sword? Did you defend yourself while dodging, wearing armor, and having a shield out? You get a flat amount of sword, melee, armor use, dodge, and shield usage regardless of the number of attacks or whether or not your rolls succeeded because you were trying to do all of those things which is how you learn. Maybe attach a multiplier based on the skill disparity between you and your opponent so that if you are fighting something that you can easily wallop you only get 0.1 the normal skill gains but if you're fighting against something that is really dangerous you might get 1.5 or even 2.0 usual gains. But you are always seeing improvement so long as you are out playing the game.

For crafting, I'd weight skill gains to take the amount of resources consumed into account so that you don't see people making endless amounts of simple, small items.

The key difference between these suggestions and the changes that I have seen on CLOK over the past two years is what really convinced me to stop playing: My suggestions see wonky player behavior as symptom of a problem (the game is too grindy) and instead of punishing the players tries to fix the grind. CLOK sees wonky player behavior as the problem and tries to punish the players to make them stop it. Those are two fundamentally different design philosophies.

One focuses on how to make the game more fun. Another focuses on compliance.

[Kent]

+1 for Eli's post.

[Skjotur]

I like the ideas for rewarding misses and for crafting.

[Vestyn]

I can't say anything helpful to make the grind better. One thing I can do, however, is give RPAs. I like to give RPAs. Give me a reason to give you RPAs.

[gralkik]

I can't say anything helpful to make the grind better. One thing I can do, however, is give RPAs. I like to give RPAs. Give me a reason to give you RPAs.

RPAs are awesome. But, they seem to promote a bonus to grinding. Not saying they're not appreciated. In fact, I enjoy getting RPAs. And look for more ways to get them. Truthfully, I am a player that seeks out the RPA. Because RP is how I play, and always have. I'd personally like to see RPA open other rewarding avenues. Which, may help deter the constant grind. Just my 2 riln.

[ydia]

amen too grindy. From another former player.

[Kent]

It has become too difficult to start a character and have him any good at anything in any kind of a reasonable time. . I recently tried out a new warrior char and after a few weeks of grinding, he still really couldn't fight on a par I think a starting warrior should (felt like my char was a 14 year old boy with a weapon, barely able to hold his own against a mindless infested carrier).

He could go and interact with other players, but as what? Nothing much as a warrior to offer to the RP table.

So what's the new player to do? Grind for year a so that when the year is up he will able to then RP? Will we find a new player playerbase greater than 2 or three persons who will do this? Will skillgains get again ganked in that year so his efforts are stonewalled? If after a year he does become the warrior he wants to be, will any other player care to interact with him? Let's ask Stranger or similar other good RP + high skill warriors how far they got when they offered mercenary services to the public, can you tell us how that went ?

[preiman]

Ok Kent either you're pushing hyperbole to the breaking point or I really want to watch you play, because I've started several characters over the last few months, and holding your own against a carrier comes rather quickly. Usually by a few sessions in they aren't even a threat.

[Kent]

I'm pretty sure I said, Barely able to hold his own; and not, Unable to hold his own.

Sure, he could kill one carrier after a bit, but what gain is there to killing one? He moves on to fight his second carrier, and usually before getting to the third he was exhausted and needed to take himself out of play (flee, hide, sit, wait).

Most of his swings missed. Most of the blows that did land, didn't land where they were aimed. Result is, lots of exhaustion down time for low gains.

While I do feel this should be the game play experience for the artisan, the thief, or the guildless character who goes to the field to fight, it definitely should not be the experience for the Merc, the Dwaedyn, or similar fighting guilds to have. These fighting guilds should all have basic training / boot camp to enable better success initially than Mr Guildless who picks up a weapon.

Similarly, the artisan should have basic training in what he does, so the mercenary who decides to head into the forge is not on an even footing, and so on for other guilds.

If after a year he does become the warrior he wants to be, will any other player care to interact with him? Let's ask Stranger or similar other good RP + high skill warriors how far they got when they offered mercenary services to the public, can you tell us how that went ?

This was the actual point of my post that your response didn't bring us any closer to, Preiman.

[Dakhal]

My business is quite well and lucrative. I enjoy every time I get something to do with it and I am heavily vested in RP. I would consider myself a high skill warrior, and I do mercenary services.

I have no complaints.

[Jirato]

Lets not attack other players here, please.

[Alexander]

After some consideration, and because I have been asked, I thought I might explain the primary reason behind my own increasing absence, and this seems an appropriate thread in which to do so. Simply put, I feel my character has no way to meaningfully accomplish the duties to which he is so strictly expected to adhere.

Alexander has participated in excellent roleplay scenarios with others, and has acted in a number of events over the years. My experiences in CLOK have been wonderful, and I shall never forget them: They are greatly appreciated, and I give the GMs who run CLOK my sincerest thanks and gratitude. At this point, however, playing Alexander seems a chore, and a fruitless one at that. This has nothing to do with skills or grinds, for that is long in the past for me. I might communicate the crux of the matter thus: It is far easier to disrupt and destroy than it is to organize and create. When the villains of CLOK get up to their schemes, there is nothing that can truly be done about it. We may face them in battle, if we manage to get them to stay still long enough. If by perseverance and good fortune we manage to slay an evildoer, we are rewarded with a mere few minutes of respite before the villain will revive and return to their devious efforts, often with a helping of spiteful mockery over the pendants. There is no reason for villains to fear those whom oppose them, for there is nothing that can be done to truly deter their disruptive efforts. Conversely, of course, there is no real reason for anyone to fear death from a villain either, for we all can return to life mere minutes after being slain. The villain, however, is always able to disrupt, destroy, and ruin in some fashion or another, while we who oppose them are merely subject to their whims, able only to react.

It can be argued that this is good, as it provides something to do for those who choose to champion goodness. As I previously stated, however, there is nothing one truly can do. Those on the side of good can at best deter a villain for some few minutes before they may get right back at whatever they were doing before being slain or driven off. Of course, alternatives would be welcome, such as taking prisoner and delivering the offender to a jail or somesuch, but I imagine this would be ill-received, as it would ruin the play experience for the villain as they are then stuck in a cell with nothing to do.

Combined with the expectations laid upon Templar in particular to deal with these troublemakers that are, in reality, impossible to stop, my play time feels like an effort in frustrating, enforced futility. Were I ever to ignore the troubles and attempt to dedicate some time to my own pursuits, it would be seen as dereliction of duty - and rightly so, in an in-character sense. When I have in the past refused to rise to the taunts of villains, I have received clearly judgmental glances, comments, and mutterings, and naturally, my foes will laugh as they scorn and mock the Templar, saying that we are hypocrites as we ignore our duty to deal with them. This is why over time I became quieter and quieter, not announcing my presence on the pendants and even occasionally hiding from the Who listings: To simply have some time to engage in my own pursuits, rather than futilely chasing the undying or being talked to about the undying and asked what I intended to do about the impossible problem. It seems that due to the impossibility to deal with villains in any meaningful way, I and my peers are reduced to submitting ourselves to the taunts and manipulations of our foes, required to give them all of our time and attention despite the complete inability for us to do anything meaningful to deter them.

I suspect this is why Templar turnover is so high: Not because of the strict guidelines and expectations of our order, but rather because we are incapable of meaningfully seeing to our duties the vast majority of the time, and are consequently often judged or mocked for it. Save for guild tasks and the occasional event run by the GM staff with NPCs that are not undying or are allowed to be captured, we are simply incapable of succeeding against any significant evildoers. From an in-character perspective, of course, a Templar will strive on despite the apparent hopelessness of the situation. From an out-of-character perspective, it is an exercise in frustration that eventually wears away at a player's enjoyment of the game. I will add that I am sure it affects others as well, particularly Outriders, Wyrvardn, and Assassins.

As a close second to all of the above, I will say that I believe the playerbase has become spread too thin, both in location and in motive. Once upon a time, an event impacting town impacted the entire playerbase, as they all lived within that town, and thus cared for its well-being and worked toward its protection and improvement. An invasion of nethrim may not be the forte of a Utasa, or a Thief, or a Dwaedn Wyr, but they would help nonetheless, because their home was threatened - at the least, they would care about it. If the cold winter caused a food shortage in Shadgard, the majority of the playerbase would come together to seek a resolution, because it affected them all. Today, any one event or scenario is only likely to attract the attention of a small, specific crowd, while the rest are either disinterested with no motivation to involve themselves, or are actively discouraged from getting involved as outsiders, and told to mind their own business.

In closing, I will say that I am not calling for any sort of change or revolution regarding these things, firstly because CLOK simply is what it is and I enjoyed it for many years despite these issues, and secondly because I cannot see any realistic solutions that I believe would be widely accepted by the playerbase. I wish CLOK, its GMs, and its players all the best as it continues on, and I am sure I will continue to visit from time to time, even if via a different character.

[Jaster]

Thanks Alexander!

I have to say, I've always loved you and your character. Alexander was easily my favorite person to interact with, because Jaster has always seen him as somebody with the character and conviction he could have but is continuously holding himself back from. They are, in many ways, mirror images of each other with Alexander being the paragon and Jaster being the more flawed, morally ambiguous one. Most anytime Jaster would heckle or point out a "flaw" in Alexander, he was really pointing out aspects of Alexander's character that he saw in himself and viewed as his own weakness. I don't know if you share this interpretation of our two characters.

You always were too honorable for your own good. ;)

[Noctere]

One thing about playing an antagonist, evil character or whatever is that you MUST learn to concede when defeated in order to allow the story to progress. You can't just instantly spring back after being killed like AH HA! and return to the fight, that defeats the narrative. Now I know our players are undying but sometimes it is best to suck up your pride and log off for a while. Play another character or just hang low.

This has also been something on our to-do list for a looooooong time. We have always wanted to place more penalties upon death and really drive home the fact that this is something you DO NOT WANT and that this time your death might be permanent. We have a ton of lore and unfinished secrets 'things' related to being killed and we would love to release them someday.

[Tamsin]

One thing about playing an antagonist, evil character or whatever is that you MUST learn to concede when defeated in order to allow the story to progress. You can't just instantly spring back after being killed like AH HA! and return to the fight, that defeats the narrative. Now I know our players are undying but sometimes it is best to suck up your pride and log off for a while. Play another character or just hang low.

this is a really good sentiment and I've seen a couple of the more prominent bad guys of today's crowd do stuff like this-- although it's not always after a defeat. Such as after a big PvP sort of encounter or something else, a couple days of lots of activity and then a break despite the results, which I think is really great since it gives people a chance to do other stuff than face the current badguy crowd. :)

Personally when playing my antagonistic character I tried to antagonize in a mostly fair way, without using the over-powered ranged stealth combat or such, only doing something antagonistic (at least towards other players, PvE is free game) once in a while, but anyway I was "defeated" by meta/oocish treatment of my character, facing a rather "completely destroy" concept rather than cooperative storytelling. There's one example of a defeat at least.

Maybe the newer philosophies would work out for you Alexander. Honestly talking to some of the antagonistic characters around nowadays OOCly about anything that's really bothering you might fix the problem, I've been surprised by how really quite helpful it can be to remind yourself and the other person you're making a cooperative story rather. Of course... some glaring cases will exist, but if you ever chance across my character at least you're always welcome to shoot me a tell about anything :)

[preiman]

Thank you Alexander, for verbalizing something I didn't even realize i was feeling until you said it. Sadly I am not sure what if anything can be done about it, though for me it drove Maric to be more of a teacher, so other people who still have the energy can deal with it.

[artus]

To make it as short and conclusive as I can :
1. The learning curve is a little troublesome when battling with patience, and very troublesome if people don't have patience.
2. Rp is easy to do, but hard to make it proper. You never know if you throw someone in hell or bore someone to death by mix rp grinding or not.
3. Some certain things are strict. (reason why I'll probably never make church char).
4. Some certain things (again) are hard to learn and can't make people stick or hold it for long. (for newbs, mostly)

But despite all that (which nearly never trouble me except the stupid skill gains sometimes), i swear to my life i'll never leave Clok as long as I can still imagine and write.

[Kent]

If by perseverance and good fortune we manage to slay an evildoer, we are rewarded with a mere few minutes of respite before the villain will revive and return to their devious efforts, often with a helping of spiteful mockery over the pendants.

Well in honour of Alexander, I for one would like to see any Player Character slain by another Player Character served a heaping helping of S. T. F. U. starting immediately.

From a logistics point of view, the slain character would be unable to speak on the basic Gray channel... They would have to tune into another crystal channel. . Perhaps any other, or perhaps just one designated channel, for instance, the Yellow crystal channel only for 12 hours. Either method of restriction would be good, as long as they can't chat on [ESP Gray].

Thank you Alexander, for verbalizing this very real concern.

[Kent]

niceglassofstfu.jpg (60.35 KiB) Viewed 16718 times

[Dakhal]

While we're at it, let me toss random people I don't like to the bottom of the river for 12 hours so they can't do anything.

Just saying.

You're pro-newbie, Kent, and this goes against those standards.. it makes the game less playable.

[Kent]

Well, at the same time, I believe newbies should be unattackable. What is the point of a tough character popping off a newcomer, to anyone?

I didn't say no ESP at all, no Chat and no Question channel. Just no ESP on the main Gray.

If a newbie gets attacked, he'll probably quit because he was killed and had to wade through and wait through the death process; and because he probably lost what little starting money he had (because he didn't know to put riln in backpack) ....the fact he can't use ESP [GRAY] will likely not be the reason.