Discussion on how we do what we do.

[Teek]

Heya folks. I'd like to talk about the Wyrvardn and how exactly we go about "Protecting the people". Now the Wyrvardn pretty clearly states that they accept any Philosophy or Creed. The issue I have with that teeny bit id we all have different opinions and methods of HOW to go about doing that, ranging from the more Knight in Shining armor type, setting an example and such, to the other end of the spectrum with the ends justifying the means, and all the moral greys that come with that.

With Templars, they have a set code they follow, and for the most part you can "Extrapolate" What and how they are supposed to go about doing what they do. Mercenaries are also easier to figure, as you can range that entire spectrum of morality and it can be justified in the pursuit of coin. I might be the only one that feels this way, but I'm beginning to notice that the differences in ideology is leading to a bit of disunity in the group.

This is not an attack on any of my fellow players, or characters. This is more a clarification for myself. This could be solved with a "Let the players figure it out for themselves" sort of resolution, I'm figuring this will just lead to more disunity, as our characters are who they are, and I think it would be a poor thing to ask folks to change the way play their characters, who are all well developed.

[gralkik]

First off, for a long time I have wondered how do I do this. But, more so, just dove in, with personal goals. It really is not till lately that I have been trying to hash out what is...acceptable? What or who this character is. I have viewed my character as a brute force, one day not to be reckoned with. But, also has a love for peace. Even if that means first bashing the heads together of two idiots. Method to attaining peace is always questionable, as long as it works. And that is the key. To question what will and won't work to keep/maintain or make peace. Sometimes making peace is not an option. And it is our job to quell the threat to that peace. Even if it is by force. Which is part to what I think being a Wyrvardn is about. Is being willing to use force, when necessary. But not cuddle things hoping they may change.

As Wyrvardn it is our goal to Protect the People of the Lost Lands. Which, to me, is an open book as to how that is accomplished. The idea of being peacekeepers is something new me, as of late. But, I would agree, the best option to protecting the people is keeping the peace. Or, see to the peace is kept. Which is never easy or possible. I know personally, there is a lot of touch and go areas that we have to be mindful of when approaching situations.

I have been rethinking some view points of some concepts for this char, with keeping in mind what it means to being a peacekeeper. But, not to divulge any IC info. It makes it difficult when we have a bias for whatever reason we have, to make or maintain peace.

[Teek]

The environment CLOK is set in, well specifically the lost lands, seems very Grimdark to me. Danger everywhere, people struggling to get on, etc. With all the danger around, keeping the little bits of peace that folks can find might be the option most folks prefer, as opposed to suffering from whatever attacks or predations could make their lives worse. With Teek, he's a do it yourself kind of guy. His family was beekeepers. If a bear came and tried to to take some honey, you did not just sit there and let it happen, you did something about it. He is very much the "Vigilante justice" Type, mostly because in the small communities he came from, that was how justice was accomplished.

Seein all the trouble that plague the lands just makes him angry. He's caught a lot of flak gor being a hothead, but, in his mind..he cannot fathom seeing something bad being done, that is effecting folks in a negative way, and not doing something about it. That's just how he is. That being said, I joined the Wyrvardn as player thinking we would be more then just a Lost Lands "U.N". The lost lands have "Peacekeepers", the Templars. I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the Wyrvardn would be a more aggressive force in stopping or preventing "Evil" or "Bad people" from plaguing people. As it is, looking at the wiki, the only group close to that idea would be the Outriders, based in Shadgard. I had thought the Wyrvardn to be similar to that idea, but more open to anyone.

As is, I doubt Teek will change. At least not in a way where he suddenly becomes a quasi-mini Templar. He has a code he operates under, and I think he definitely is a bit "Tenacious", but he is not some crazy lunitic who wants to just kill everyone and everything. As is, despite the Wyrvardn being a peacekeeping force, I believe there is enough wiggle room under the "Any Philosophy or Creed, as long as there are no conflicts with the overall goals of keeping the land safe" thing they use in accepting people, that you might be able to be more of a "Peacemaker" Instead of of a "Peacekeeper". And if not? Well it'll lead to some epic RP either way!

[Rias]

I think there's a difference between "Protector of the People" and "Vigilante". One of the tenets of the Wyrvardn is, after all, "honor". While "honor" is certainly up to interpretation, it does mean that Wyrvardn should remember to consider how they act, and how they're coming across. If they end up with a reputation as a bunch of vigilante Punishers, that ... would make me really sad.

They don't need to be as picky about eliminating many of the Lost Lands threats without holding back: The various nasty nethrim, canim, infested, even brigands. But if they start going around just stabbing and stringing up anyone they decide is "evil" without much thought, essentially dubbing themselves judge, jury, and executioner, that's bad. While not Templar, Wyrvardn should still try to do the right and "honorable" thing. So for instance, if there's some village that people are saying is hosting a bunch of infested people, you probably shouldn't ride in there, barricade all the doors, and light all the homes on fire with the people locked inside while staring broodily into the flames and muttering something about "doing what had to be done". Might want to investigate the situation first, see just how "infested" these people are (if at all, maybe it was just a rumor), then look into whether there can be any help for them or perhaps if they could just continue on living in their state as they are, if they've got things under control.

So I guess, I really don't think Wyrvardn should be considered "vigilantes" or "shoot first, ask questions later" or "kill them all and let Serafina sort it out". To be completely frank, they were basically made to be a group similar to Templar, but not requiring quite so much hardcore dedication and RP restriction (and wait times to join). This doesn't mean their "style" has to be similar to Templar, though - they don't have to run around in shining armor, riding mounts, being all knight-like. They can, but that's not like the Wyrvardn "thing". There's a lot of variety if you read about and look at the 5 NPC leaders of the guild, and other Wyrvardn NPCs are defintiely not "knight-like". See Jaclyn in Shadgard, who is a sharpshooter with a musket essentially dressed up like a cowgirl. What's important is that she (presumably) has dedicated herself to the fight to protect the people of the Lost Lands from all the threats, partially by being a defender, and partially by going on the offensive to try and eliminate various threats like groups of infested and nethrim and even non-afflicted people who are just nasty, like highwaymen and murderers and crazed rogue sorcerers and the like. They don't consider themselves (as an organization) independent enforcers of justice or anything like that, though. If some criminal gets away with a crime, the Wyrvardn aren't necessarily going to go all hunter on them "because the justice system failed" and blah blah blah.

They're first and foremost protectors, not hunters. They should have the reputation of being good and honorable people that are nice to have around town at socials, not scary brooding manhunters constantly spattered in blood and gore. If people start viewing them as scary, bloodthirsty vigilantes (even if "in the name of good"), they're going to lose the trust of the good people of the Lost Lands.

Protectors of the people: Yes
Going on the offensive against groups of nasties like infested, canim, nethrim, brigands: Yes (though remember to be smart and do your best to act "honorable", rather than acting out of blind and unthinking zeal - situations vary quite a lot, the CLOK world is very much not black-and-white)
Bounty Hunters: No
Vigilantes: No

Their mission is a lot like the Templar. They are supposed to be an organized and regulated Order, who hold their members responsible and put effort into maintaining a positive reputation among the good people of the Lost Lands. They don't believe themselves "above the law" or "knowing better than the law". They don't have meticulous Codes and Edicts to conform to, and are allowed a good deal more wiggle room in their adherence to the broader ideas of being "good" and "honorable". They're expected to work with the (good) people, not despite the people "for their own good even if they don't realize it."

I'm not saying there's no place for some more open and widespread "vigilante" group in CLOK (does it need to be a guild specifically? Why not just a player-run vigilante group?), but the way I envisioned the Wyrvardn when they were created, I don't think they fit that bill.

[gralkik]

I agree with Rias on a number of points. We aren't vigilantes. We are more like Peace Officers. Trying to maintain order in the land. Dissolving situation first with peaceful negotiations. For, if we must, use force when needed. Though, I feel I am starting to repeat myself now.

If we are tasked to 'hunt down a highwayman', I generally would assume that they are fugitives of the law. Since they are practicing lawlessness. But there is a lot of things that are hard to decide as to what we should actually do. Just stand, watch.. or.. intervene. Yes, this is a bit aggravating not knowing when to step into a situation, and when to step back and say, "Ok. This is just beyond us at the moment. We need to figure something else out." And, as Rias said, we aren't bounty hunters. But that doesn't stop us from letting us enjoy the pleasure of driving off any villainy or forcefully negotiate another alternative to living.

I'll be honest. I will be the first person into a fight, if there is one. But never the first to attack. Once, I tried resolving an issue trying to avoid a conflict. That did not work out so well. I was killed because the character was just plain evil. Upon that character engaging in combat. Everything just fell away side. He is not one to run from a fight, unless he knows that defeat is immanent. Then he'll withdraw, as fast as possible. If possible. That said, it is not hard to get a head ourselves and try to be something we aren't.

I try to be a ruthless barbarian, in a salvage land. Giving no quarter to anything that threatens the peace of the land. Yeah, I get frowned at when I drop a brigand, because I see him as a lying, treacherous piece of villainy. When he starts attacking... But I also can hold my weapon, if they want to speak, peaceably. But they better throw down there weapons. That, too me, is honorable conduct. With a rough edge. heh. Which, I would take it as being still in the 'wiggle-room' of our guild principles.

Like I started out saying, We are much like the Peace Officers of the Lost Lands. Trying to uphold order and law, within the land. And use forceful negotiations when we must. Keeping in mind, that we aren't to take the Law into our hands. But, I will say I don't agree that we should allow crime to go unstopped in the lands, out beyond the cities. But, try to prevent further crimes from being commited.

There is a very fine line between Us (Protectors of the Land), Vigilantes and Bounty Hunters. And as long as we know that line, and know enough when not to cross it, we can do our jobs. Crossing that line makes us nothing more than a glorified Mercenary, which we are not.

[gralkik]

After writing all that, I was thinking of asking if it would be possible to incorporate tasks that lend aid to people. Small hamlets, cities and such. Based upon our skill capabilities. Or would that be more along the lines for other things, such as personal RP IG and what avenues can be opened up throw points of RP?

[Acarin]

After writing all that, I was thinking of asking if it would be possible to incorporate tasks that lend aid to people. Small hamlets, cities and such. Based upon our skill capabilities. Or would that be more along the lines for other things, such as personal RP IG and what avenues can be opened up throw points of RP?

I kind of think that most guild tasks are out-dated with generalization added except for maybe mercenaries... I would honestly like to see them removed from game for many guilds. I'm not sure why everyone keeps requesting them. Any insight here?

[Rias]

I like guild tasks, because they give guild members the feeling that they can actually do something specifically for their guild, and it helps give them a feel for what kind of thing guild members are expected to do.

Coding tasks can be a real pain in the backside, though.

[Acarin]

I like guild tasks, because they give guild members the feeling that they can actually do something specifically for their guild, and it helps give them a feel for what kind of thing guild members are expected to do.

Coding tasks can be a real pain in the backside, though.

I suppose that makes sense when they're tailored to the guild. For some guilds though, they obviously still seem rather generic. I don't really see why the brotherhood, for example, would send me out to go kill a dangerous critter that has been attacking people (from a lore perspective)... same thing with Shars (what do they care about that? Defend the people? No thanks). That sort of thing fits Wyrvardn or Mercs though... and maybe Dwaedn and Templars too. Same sort of thing with other tasks too (Just speaking to the guilds I know here).

I understand that tasks give guilds some flavor, but I think that they can also detract from it in some cases when they obscure what the guild is actually about.

[Rias]

Maybe the text could be changed for those guilds to "Go out and test/prove yourself against this critter" or something (or they could just be taken out, I'd be fine with that too). But this discussion should be moved to a different thread.

[Teek]

I doubt the Wyrvardn as a whole will develop a reputation for for being vigilantes, as Teek is aware of the obligations he has agreed to by joining the Wyrvardn. I'm sure if he goes too far out there with his zeal will be called out and lead to some interesting RP. If it goes too far south, I'm sure Teek will realize that perhaps the Wyrvardn was not the right match for him, or tone back a bit.

I like the player run idea, and it's something I have pondered myself, but I'm sure if there was a desire for such a group, more folks would have clamored for it by now. I could be wrong. Either way, at least now we know what the Wyrvardn are envisioned in doing what they do!

[jilliana]

Thank you Rias for your initial post on this thread. You certainly clarified some things and in other ways you confirmed a lot of what I was trying to accomplish IC.

The guild has become quite interesting since getting some more initiates.