layering clothes/armor

[sona]

This may be a bit silly, so I understand if it's declined, I understand pants can be worn under greaves, but greaves can't be worn under skirts. Skirts also can't be worn under greaves, but this makes sense to me, given the billowy, non-pantslike structure of skirts in comparison to pants/greaves. Failing allowing this, the only way that logically makes sense to allow people wearing female clothing like skirts to wear armor and clothes is to provide a "gird" command, girding ones loins is done with a skirt-like object. Though that seems like a bit more work and really low priority. I'm just playing with ideas to allow people (usually women) to wear skirts and armor, or is that just too outlandish?

[Laroremas]

Ah, yes, yet another example of the patriarchy™ in full swing and force.

Personally, as a foxkin (that's 50% human, 50% fox) I can relate fully to the struggle and plight of the female gender; there are as of yet no fox tails for purchase so that I may live out my life how it is I was born to do.

I have written about this on my personal blog and I do hope that action will be taken soon so that all races and species can play this game in peace how they were MEANT to.

[sona]

Dearest Foxy Lars,

I am sure your prayers for a tail may one day be heard by the great bear spirit you have forsaken in favor of the great Fox spirit, who I am equally as sure will address the matter of your gender and quasi-vulpine status, so you may better relate to the struggle and plight of the female gender. I shall always respect you, you my homegirl, Lars! Thanks for your helpful and contributions with your input <3

[Rias]

Let's try to keep our posts on-topic and at least pertaining to the matter at hand, especially if no helpful or sincere response has been made yet. While being funny in general is not discouraged, if the first response to a request/suggestion is nothing but silly, it could be easily taken as mocking or making fun of the suggestion, and I'd like to see a little more respect for our fellows around here. (Yes, I will apply this myself as well, as I've been pretty mean and grumpy lately.)

As to the original post, I'm a little confused by it, just because of all the unders and overs and stuff like that. Just to clarify, this a request to be able to wear skirts over armor, correct? I do have to admit I find the concept of wearing a skirt over armor to be a little odd, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone searched up and posted some old-timey images of just that. (For some reason I'm thinking it's going to be images of males, too.) Anyone else want to chime in on the subject?

[Kiyaani]

I don't like the idea conceptually, but I suppose it's possible...

[Kiyaani]

Old-timey image just for you, Rias.

[Kunren]

I like the idea of being possible, but fairly weird looking to do myself.

[Kiyaani]

Yea, I don't see why it would be impossible depending on the type of skirt. It just might look really odd or bulky under there. Obviously you couldn't do this with something like a pencil skirt or a form-fitting gown and I don't think wearing a skirt over leg armor would really conceal it that well in general.

[jilliana]

I like the idea in theory, but eh. I suggested a while back armored skirts but that didn't go over so well.

Now if anyone sees Jilliana wear armor with a dress or skirt it's because I was too OOC lazy to have her run around looking for pants.

[sona]

Yeah, the request would be for skirts to be wearable over leg armor. Like Kiyaani says, it wouldn't be something you'd wear a form fitting skirt with, but a less restrictive skirt, I can't see the problem with. It might not be something we're used to picturing in our minds, but I also can't think of problems with it. Depending on the style of greaves, we're talking about half leg protection to about 3/4 (up to about the hips), so it shouldn't be impractical, though it might look bulky. I might be inclined to say it's easier especially with leather leg armor, but could take more time to sort out with metal leg armor. Definitely not meant to conceal.

[Avedri]

I'm personally not a fan of wearing armor with skirts, though if the skirt was sensible enough of material it doesn't really present a problem. If anyone wears a gown with a helm and gauntlets outside of a ceremonial thing, I am going to be sad in my heart of hearts. The above picture is an example, though I also think that maybe the implication there is a faux pas on women wearing pants?

I dunno how it works with the layered system/clothing armor but it seems like a good opportunity for an NPC battle maiden to come around and show off some options for female-inspired armor. I'm thinking Brienne of Tarth, Xena, (early full coverage) Titania from Raident Dawn, Leona from League of Legends, Sorsha from Willow.

[jilliana]

I'd love to see more female-inspired armor. It doesn't have to be a huge deal, but something a bit more feminine-looking would be nice.

It doesn't have to accomidate skirts or dresses.

[Rias]

Aside from attaching a skirt to it or etching it with stereotypically feminine image decorations, how do people figure a suit of armor for females would/should/could differ in appearance from that worn by men? Why are we assuming that what we have now is "masculine" and that there is a lack of "feminine" armor? I always figured armor was pretty unisex.

I know a lot of MMORPGs and fantasy artwork say different with their sculpted boob plate and their chainmail bikinis and their law of "the less coverage armor provides for females, the more protective it is", but I'd like at least a semblance of practicality in our armor designs here on CLOK.

I'm not saying no, I'm just honestly asking what the obvious differences are, if any, between male and female armor, and how we would indicate such in a text-based MUD. Or, are people just asking for armor with descriptions that have a more feminine feel to them with the applied etchings/colors/decor?

[jilliana]

It doesn't have to be pink, but it can have descriptives like slender, dainty, etc. Jilliana has a set of armor with a certain pattern specific to her made by Kyskie.

[sona]

I was just thinking that it'd be nice if we could wear skirts over leg armor to avoid the (Pantsless) tag "HEY! You're not wearing any pants!!!". It provides no tangible benefit, it's not too look super pretty while we fight. And more, 'I had this, was wearing this, and it feels like there shouldn't be an issue with doing this. If we implemented other leg/waist/hip armor slots like kidney belts, and especially with bulkier armor such as plate and possibly scale, I see wearing skirts as more impractical. For soft/rigid leather, I imagine it should be fine. Don't try and wear a gown or such with armor, unless you want it to get ruined. I suppose it has some potential for abuse, as clothing doesn't require repair, etc. I can't claim to be an expert on armor by any chance. I am working towards getting my full set IRL so I can do more heavy fighting with the SCA. Right now, I practice rapier, and that's all a bit of a different tangent, but IRL, if I omitted thigh armor more specifically, I could still easily wear a skirt. Under the belt, over knee. There is a decent chance it would realistically catch on the edges of greaves and tangle, but I would like to think we can have an element of suspension of disbelief. We have elemancers and druids and all sort of mystical not IRL-y stuff. and despite the domain it comes from (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/10/0 ... ted-guide/), for many skirts, I believe this is an IRL solution if necessary, but it's not what we're conditioned to 'expect'. Some people might come up with arguments of chafing. Most armor will be padded, and the very custom-made nature of armor itself means that if you're so inclined, you can simply add your own padding. On the topic of fantasy female armor, I agree, and I don't want to see this become that. For the most part us lady fighters might get segmented armors that let out a bit more in the chest, but still squishes a bit. Padded and/or sports undergarments/armor nicely assist with this. It won't be perfectly sculpted metal breasts covering natural ones. I'm not sure if any of this is helpful, but I've made an attempt to be.

[Rias]

Sorry, Sona. We veered off the original topic a bit. What about wearing some leggings under those greaves? I'm not 100% against skirts over greaves (especially the lighter types), but the leggings might work for you in the meantime if you don't want pants and want to wear something that is arguably more feminine.

[Fayne]

It's kinda hard to argue what is or isn't kosher when it comes to female plate armor, since during the time periods it was used, war was not a place for women. Women actively going into combat and fighting alongside men is a very recent thing in history, and outside of your famous figures like Joan of Arc, I'm guess few if any women ever owned a set of armor (especially since 99.9% of them couldn't even own property). Any important female figures you see in armor in paintings are generally in decorative armor that would be impractical for actual combat, just like much of the armor kings had themselves painted in. However, we can speculate on what female armor would have been like. Sculpted breasts would definitely be a no-no, as this would allow any piercing blows that landed on either sid of the chest to be nudged directly into a little valley perfect for a sword or spear to punch a hole through the metal, and that would spell a quick death. I imagine if women had small enough breasts, they wouldn't even worry about it and would deal with the slight discomfort knowing they were well-protected. More busty women might get a more pronounced curve in the chest, one that likely forced the breasts together and probably lifted the slightly, much like a brasierre, rather than being shaped around where they naturally sit. Women's armor would also have a narrower waist in most cases, as a more snug fit is going to provide better mobility and confort, and a smaller waist also means less for the enemy to hit. However, again, it couldn't come in too narrow, or you risk giving weapons a little valley or curve to follow straight to a weak point, plus too pronounced of a curve could make it easier to dent in on the high spots with a nice, solid bludgeon. And really, that's about it. Everwhere else could be almost identical to male armor, since too many asthetic decorations compromises protection by giving weapons something to grab on to when the blow would normally glance off and possibly reduce mobility. Of course, there is one more difference; the necessity for a codpiece would be gone, so no metalic bulge. Lol

[sona]

leggins work, but I feel like they're more of an 'underwear' layer. I don't suppose we could compromise and have it so that if you're wearing greaves, that it assumes you're wearing an under layer, like leggings or trousers and therefore not pantsless? Then when you're done, just swap off greaves, put on skirt, and say you threw a skirt on over the leggings?

[preiman]

A quick digression, but an answer to the comment that women fighters is recent.
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-art ... on-hurley/

[Fayne]

A quick digression, but an answer to the comment that women fighters is recent.
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-art ... on-hurley/

Please note that I did not say women never fought. That'd be absurd, and as the article states, there were plenty of examples of women warriors. But it was not commonly accepted, and in the places it was commonly accepted, they did not use plate armor.

I'm sure there were female knights or mercenaries or warriors who wore plate armor. I'm just saying determing exactly how such a suit would be designed might prove difficult, as it was not at all a common thing for women to become fighters back then.

[Kent]

Kilts also.