Why are you afraid of fighting, CLOKians?

[Lun]

This is aimed at my fellow players moreso than the GM staff, as they only want to make things interesting for people and run events, and can be more generalized than the situation I'm referring to in my post.


This is general discussion, so I thought I'd put this out there.

Today, something happened that could have incited a monster hunt, a minor event with a chance to RP.
One person spoke out and told people to not fight, and everyone followed suit and agreed with them.

Even one more voice siding with "Let's hunt the monster!" could have either evolved the event into a larger PvP brawl or a much more interesting event, but because 95% of the playerbase decided to do nothing, well... nothing happened.

Question 1: Is it that people are afraid of PvP because of skill levels?
Question 2: To general events: do you avoid helping because your rolls seem low?
The real question: Why are you afraid to disagree?

***NOTE I keep saying PvP but I really mean CvC.

"15:46:59 [CHAT - (a mysterious GM)]: Remember GMs try to avoid trolling players and normally do things with an RP reason in mind. If no one participates we will normally withdraw our hand and return things to normal in time."

Post-edit numero five: What's stopping you from getting help to fight that other character?

[blindndangerous]

That's why I don't do it, I know I couldn't take down some one since most players here are more powerful than I am, so I don't bother to try.

[sona]

I would have gone in based on my alliances, and not giving a crap about anything else. I'm undying yo. I didn't choose the undying life, the undying life chose me! I generally don't care for conflict, but the amount of reaction/action you can get from RP with the world is totally worth the risk of a death for me.

[qinweiqi]

CLOK is about roleplaying first and foremost. My primary two characters don't care for it, and if there were aeromancy and pyromancy tasks I'd probably be willing to leave combat behind altogether. So, my thoughts are, not everyone is all about the violence.

[Rias]

If you feel you won't stand a chance roll-wise against a baddy, don't forget that in groups you can pretty much take anything on! Get a group of people attacking the same target and its defense will drop into nothingness pretty quick due to being "surrounded."

There's also the very handy flank command which can be used to further lower a target's defense, as long as there are others nearby and attacking it (i.e. you're in a group) to give you an opening to flank it.

Also, the assist command makes you take the same target as the person you assist. So if you have a group leader assigned to focus fire, you can just wait for them to attack first, then everyone in the group type assist [leadername] and then attack/battle/trance/barrage/whatever.

Group tactics are super fun, and even a group of "newbies" can take down a super high-skilled target. Go go teamwork!

[Lun]

Another thing that someone brought up on CHAT that I think is important... The issue of reviving someone after they die in a CvC fight.

CLOK is about roleplaying, but it's also a game. We all come here to have fun and enjoy ourselves after a long day. I'd like it to be a principle that after a CvC fight, you do your opponent the respect of either bringing them to a revival place yourself, or call someone to pick up the piece of garbage you just dropped.

"Oh, but it'd be against my RP to revive someone after I kill them! Why would I do that?" - Poor sportsmanship. We're all Undying. You understand how it feels to stand around waiting for a revival for ages. Don't make someone else go through that.

Also, to reply to that post about "But the other players are so much stronger than me!" Rias has a point.

Players are just boss-type monsters, after all. Get a group and lynch them!

[Kiyaani]

Even if someone massively out-skills you it doesn't mean you can't win. There's always a chance for a lucky hit or for that person to recognize your spirit and RP to further evolve or to just crush you and for RP to evolve that way. Group and 'surround' mechanics are designed so that even players with low skill can contribute. There's strength in numbers.

Death penalties are pretty light. Do what your character would do, not what you feel you need to do to preserve badassdom. I don't always follow my own advice, but that doesn't make it bad advice. ;)

I think it's also good to recognize that fighting isn't *always* necessary and not always avoided due to 'fear'. I don't think it's wrong for people to choose not to fight if that's how their character would RP and if they're particularly convincing and others choose not to fight too, so be it. Even if it means you might miss out on defeating some mighty creature, it's still legit RP. Maybe that creature will come back to haunt you some day or maybe it will cause a different chain of events. There's no right or wrong way to handle these things and just because people don't fight doesn't mean it's bad.

Also, I didn't participate in this case because it didn't seem like something my character would get involved in. I generally try to get involved in any events I can though.

[blindndangerous]

Good point. I guess I'm just comparing it to other muds I've played where if you took something on, you'd better be able to take it down. If you were in a group, your other group members would be about the same as you, otherwise they'd get destroyed. I've gotta get out of this mindset and think about how my characters would react in these situations, but I guess when you've played other muds that weren't RP enforced like this one is, it's a little harder for me to forget that. Will try and keep the things that Rias and Kiyaani mentioned here in mind for the future.

[Carressa]

Personally I have a ridiculously low combat skill set, and I'm quite happy that way. That, and I'm relatively new too. I joined this game because in my experience most games that claim "rp" still only level based on killing. This game is amazing because if I want to make a Smith and don't want to fight, my ability to make armour is in no way tied to how many things I kill.

That said, I have no problem with conflict RP, it can be a lot of fun, but so far everyone I've met in game has been more that helpful and nice, and the comment of " the crab seems to be protecting its young " definitely said to me " what kind of jerk attacks a mom watching over her kids". :)

I had a point and it kinda got rambled away, sorry, but some characters will very very very rarely choose combat as the resolution, BECAUSE of the RP, not despite it.

[Breezy]

Ok, dumb question from a newbie time.

What's the point of killing PCs if all of the PCs are Undying? I played in a few permadeath muds and if you screwed with the wrong types, that was the end of your character. I usually stay clear of combat because I'm generally not good at it. Also, in game without permadeath there seem to have other ways to "hit people where it hurts."

Also, I'm very interested in the shadier guilds. But, I'm just wondering what's the point of assassination if the person is just going to come back - possibly just mad, if anything.

Thanks :D

[Carressa]

Ok, dumb question from a newbie time.

What's the point of killing PCs if all of the PCs are Undying? I played in a few permadeath muds and if you screwed with the wrong types, that was the end of your character. I usually stay clear of combat because I'm generally not good at it. Also, in game without permadeath there seem to have other ways to "hit people where it hurts."

Also, I'm very interested in the shadier guilds. But, I'm just wondering what's the point of assassination if the person is just going to come back - possibly just mad, if anything.

Thanks :D

Sorry your post just totally reminded me of this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FkVXCC ... 3n&index=1

"Do you have any idea how much that stings!?"

[Lysse]

What's the point of killing PCs if all of the PCs are Undying? I played in a few permadeath muds and if you screwed with the wrong types, that was the end of your character. I usually stay clear of combat because I'm generally not good at it. Also, in game without permadeath there seem to have other ways to "hit people where it hurts."

Also, I'm very interested in the shadier guilds. But, I'm just wondering what's the point of assassination if the person is just going to come back - possibly just mad, if anything.

I think that being Undying is probably very traumatic, from an IC standpoint. That just doesn't get RPed out much, because it's not convenient to do so I imagine.



Generally, my PC is pretty isolationist, and doesn't give involved in too many events because of that. That, however, is my choice and I'm willing to live with that.

On the topic of CvC, I think it's worth mentioning that if you're smart about the abilities you have, and know your way around the combat system in Clok, you can usually give yourself a leg up against opponents stronger than you.

Wizardry is all about thinking ahead, about being prepared. Wizards aren’t really superhuman. We just have a leg up on seeing things more clearly than other people, and being able to use the extra information we have for our benefit. Hell, the word wizard comes from the same root as wise. We know things. We aren’t any stronger or faster than anyone else. We don’t even have all that much more going in the mental department. But we’re god-awful sneaky, and if we get the chance to get set for something, we can do some impressive things.

[Laroremas]

The issue that stands to be regarded is simple here.

There are a lot of pacifist characters or characters that simply do not utilize violence as a method of resolving whatever sort of issues they may be faced with. This is especially relevant when it comes to this particular "monster hunt" event the OP mentioned.

There is, of course, nothing wrong with this.

Why would anyone, save for the most unstable sociopath, kill anyone over disagreeing with them about killing said monster?

Violence is pretty cool. My character is all about violence. It is important to note, however, that the character(s) you play are living, breathing people. They should have regrets, fears, expectations and at least some semblance of a conscience and something that resembles a vague character sheet, i.e. how said character would typically respond to any given situation.

UNLESS they're said sociopath. And there's nothing wrong with that, either.

It is entirely possible that no meaningful "CvC" conflict stemmed from this particular encounter because the CHARACTERS involved did not feel murdering people who disagreed with them over going on said hunt was justified, not because the PLAYERS involved somehow felt inadequate or apathetic to the prospect of such.

Also, an apology to whichever GM threw this together; I genuinely wasn't sure if this was some sort of event and so I made no effort to really participate. Don't get discouraged.

[Rias]

Ok, dumb question from a newbie time.

What's the point of killing PCs if all of the PCs are Undying?

Here are a few reasons I can think of:

- There's always the possibility that the killer wasn't aware the target was Undying.
- Why do people punch each other over conflicts sometimes? People can come to blows over a conflict without the intent or expectation to eternally end one another. This is essentially that, taken to a new level with the knowledge that the target is Undying. (That doesn't mean it isn't a horrible thing to do, though!)
- It's a display of power over the target. It says "I have power over your life - while I know you'll most likely come back, I've established superior power and dominance over you."
- Similar to above, the killer could just be displaying how they can so easily toy with the life of the target out of sheer sadism.
- Lore-wise, even Undying stop coming back sometimes. Nobody knows how many times an Undying may come back - there have been those whom only come back once before staying dead permanently, and there are those that have died literally hundreds of times (like some of our PCs *smirk*). The killer may be banking on the idea that one of these deaths will be the target's last.
- As Lysse mentioned, death should be treated as a highly painful and traumatic experience. It should be considered painful and harrowing to the very soul, not just the body. Most players seem to treat the situation as if it were a minor inconvenience or setback that they don't mind going through again and again, as long as they eventually get what they want, or even out of minor curiosity ("I really want to see what's past that swamp, even though I've died there 5 times in the past 20 minutes.")

Laroremas wrote a wonderful response, so I'll just +1 it. I actually like it when PCs show that they're wary of the idea of facing a situation with a significant chance of death, regardless of their Undying status. Again, PCs should remember that lorewise, Undying status isn't necessarily permanent - each death could, technically, be your character's last. Some obviously will have the opinion or confidence that they are the super-undying who will never ever have a last death, but I like to think that most people will always have that nagging thought in the back of their mind that, "If I die here, there's a chance I could never come back."

[jilliana]

Thank you Rias for reminding us that although we know our characters are never going to die, that we could make at least an attempt about caring about what happens to them since they may or may not ever come back.

As for the original post on this thread, I really can't add anything. Laroremas added a perspective I have never really thought about. :)

[merin]

I have a couple different oppinions, due to my outlook.
1. character thinks violence is wrong...going to be in that "don't fight" crowd.
2. character doesn't fight but doesn't care about it either way is going to pay someone for the results a handy amount.
3. I'll come with.

Clok is a game and I'm going to take part in what is the most enjoyable for me at the time while sticking to a character consept I'm logged in on currently. I'm sad I missed this thing.

[Shou]

On my part, uh. A wierd mix of "Player is unable due to circumstances to play/dedicate much time to skill increasing" "Skills feel too low to be of any use."

Characters, they depend on what you're trying to fight.

[Lacie]

My character will do whatever is in her nature according to the situation, and she did. I apologize to the GM handling it if this caused an anti-climactic end to an event, but it would be out of character for her to have taken any other side. Crabs are sort of like sea-bowtruckles, after all... if you squint.

As for being afraid of fighting, I'm certainly not, though in the same vein it annoys me when people instantly jump to "kill the thing/person!" or trivialize death. In some places, the game feels like it encourages that sort of thought pattern, but I've always really loved how there are plenty of hostile creatures that are 'protected' despite being dangerous or convenient (bowtruckles, scarecrows, Hyra, etc.). It adds depth and encourages careful consideration and conflict.

[Fayne]

Personally, my character won't hesitate to resort to violence when necessary, or if you insult her greatly enough, but she isn't all about death. Even being a druid, if you overlog and ignore my warning, I'll likely just sneak on over and root you to the spot as a bit of show that "I mean business, so move on." If someone were to talk bad or be smart about her warnings, then yeah, she's probably at least wound them badly. Or if you mess with Sona, that's a good way to end up dead. Hehe.

I'm not afraid of fighting, I just do CvC very often vecause it doesn't really fit in my RP. My characters never really tend to overestimate their own skills, and they aren't prone to the "violence solves problems" mindset. OOCly I know I could easily kill someone like Kent, Spearhead, Jilliana, or any other generally powerful characters as long as I get in one lucky tangleroot, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try anytime soon in an IC setting. So, I think the issue lies more in people not playing uber violent characters rather than them being afraid of fighting or disagreeing.

[baerden]

Like lalore said, the example given is a poor reason to resort to something as drastic as murder. Unless you're roleplaying a character that can count to potato and kicks puppies for fun.

I don't think anyone is afraid of CVC per se, it is just that many times there is no mortal threat posed between characters, their groups (guilds), goals, or the consequences their in.

(I'm going to use guilds as an example from here on out since they are the most 'defined' faction entity.)

By that I mean that guilds are unable to affect an 'enemy' guild in any tangible way that would translate to creating hardships or disadvantages for the players of the opposing guild. Since there is no way to measure the struggle, feel its effects, or convey threats, there is no NEED or THREAT. When there is no need, threat, objective, sense of struggle, or accomplishment then there is little motivation to risk life and pride to play "kill the other guy" till i get bored.

I'm not even sure if guilds are by design truly hostile to any other specific guild. From what I've seen, everyone pretty much accepts that even if your guild isn't one of the 'nice' ones (Shar), it's not really hurting anyone by their actions, and if they did, it was just business and no hard feelings. All is forgiven and in short order everyone is invited back to Lumpytoes cottage for tea, biscuits and a heaping dose of huggles!!!! (Harumph, complete rubish)

There (might) be lore reasons or effects caused by a players affinity for wood (*1) that might motivate CvC, but its just RP or in the second case is accessible to too broad of a group base (everyone) and its intent is too questionable to have any meaning (*1). It feels to me that these looming threats arent terribly important enough for CvC unless your name is Lysse.

(*1) Everyone hates druids and is bent on their destruction by hurting the gaea intentionally or otherwise. If you simply must indulge your evil soul on those trees in order to make something, be warned, cause i'm expected to drop everything i'm doing and run out and KILL YOU as punishment for an act whoms intent I cannot know without a doubt. This doesnt make sense to me, logically, so, my motivation to CvC over it is Null.

GMs can create CvC conflict through events, and it is good to a point. If there are opposing objectives that potentially harm the opposite team, or have an event trigger that for example activates for Team Tree Haters when through a cooperative objective they were the first team to collect their needed 50 Baby Trees to light on fire in front of a crying druid while looking like a smug little [crap], and in doing so were rewarded with the Gaea shutting its gawdam yap for a month.

The only downside is you need constant GM involvement to create these events, and their impact on the game. If the impact on the game is not readily apparent, meaningful, or there are lulls between the next plot, then once again, CvC will fall off again until there is reason for it to rise.

An interesting approach to get CvC relavent is a semi-automatic / procedural / wordIcantRemember game wide event system that tracks the measurable objectives that are struggled back and forth between Guild A, Guild B, Guild C, ETC, and depending on the value of FOO in FOOBAR objective pool results game altering effects that people kill others to prevent or work to accomplish such as:
Receiving a bonus to some thing or applying a penalty to a rivals, creates pro-guild event e.g. swarm of creatures beneficial to your guild, while really being a pain to the anti-guilds objectives.
Some guilds have stated goals in their charter, there could be a status level for each goal that denotes the guilds progress and regression in each goal as opposing forces struggle. Example: Tse Gaiyan : We are turning the tide on the infested! or if people arent killing enough infested daily to stop the daily increase in fungus density - Tse Gaiyan : We are up to our eyebrows in fungus! HELP!, an example of thieves goals being outpaced by Wyvarden(sp) - Thieves: The heat is on. Alternately - Wyvarden: I say, Bad Lads, Bad Lads, What shall ye do, what shall ye do whenst I cometh for thee.
.....cause spikes in nethrim for a time, causes the suppression for nethrim for a time..... you get the idea.

Or you could use the same basic idea but just add in objectives and respective events for each guild for simplicity.. maybe.



Anyways. I wrote some stuff, hopefully it made sense and wasn't too full of bad jokes.

[Tangela]

Personally, the lack of extreme cvc is one of the things I love about clok. The occasional (sometimes) violent disagreements between individuals don't always spill out into guild politics, and people are as likely to try to reason with someone as stab them when arguments get heated. Its a refreshing change to other games that over glorify violence as a problem solving tool.

This isn't to say that violence isn't sometimes a realistic choice for characters, but I enjoy that its not the only one, and nonviolence is rarely seen as a lesser option by the players of Clok.