I have some ideas pertaining to elemancers as academics. However, before finishing rounding them out I have some things I'd like to understand more clearly.
What is the current state of recognition points for elemancers?
What are the currently known available tasks for elemancers (preferably by specialization)?
What is the state of elemancy texts? (From my reading the forums it appears they are now completely non-usable for skill gain, is that correct?)
I've read that there is an on-going 500 riln per month cost for maintaining the dormitory contract, is that still accurate?
Edit to add: I would also LOVE to have GM input on what the current to-do list contains for elemancers and the university. (I've seen a lot of player input and some GM considering, but nothing hard and fast as a "this will someday be a part of clok". That's perfectly ok, but I don't want to be beating a dead horse if some ideas are already on the to-do list.)
Elemancers as academics
Re: Elemancers as academics
What is the current state of recognition points for elemancers?
- Nil.
What are the currently known available tasks for elemancers (preferably by specialization)?
- Water, Earth, and Fire Surveys. They're really boring, but you can also get points by just casting at challenging targets when you want more excitement.
What is the state of elemancy texts? (From my reading the forums it appears they are now completely non-usable for skill gain, is that correct?)
- They're usable, just up to a certain skill threshold. After that you need to ask trainers for training.
I've read that there is an on-going 500 riln per month cost for maintaining the dormitory contract, is that still accurate?
- This hasn't been implemented yet.
Edit to add: I would also LOVE to have GM input on what the current to-do list contains for elemancers and the university.
- Implement the 500-riln-per-month fee. Hee hee.
- Redesign the University grounds layout (particularly the space-bending cloister).
- Work more on Masteries.
- Aeromancy tasks.
- More tasks in general.
- Revisit some of the elemancy combinations.
- Nil.
What are the currently known available tasks for elemancers (preferably by specialization)?
- Water, Earth, and Fire Surveys. They're really boring, but you can also get points by just casting at challenging targets when you want more excitement.
What is the state of elemancy texts? (From my reading the forums it appears they are now completely non-usable for skill gain, is that correct?)
- They're usable, just up to a certain skill threshold. After that you need to ask trainers for training.
I've read that there is an on-going 500 riln per month cost for maintaining the dormitory contract, is that still accurate?
- This hasn't been implemented yet.
Edit to add: I would also LOVE to have GM input on what the current to-do list contains for elemancers and the university.
- Implement the 500-riln-per-month fee. Hee hee.
- Redesign the University grounds layout (particularly the space-bending cloister).
- Work more on Masteries.
- Aeromancy tasks.
- More tasks in general.
- Revisit some of the elemancy combinations.
The lore compels me!
Re: Elemancers as academics
Excellent, thank you Rias!
My goal with these ideas (and hopefully the ensuing discussion) is to determine how the university really should feel. Some of my ideas are mine, some of them are borrowed from my readings in other threads in this forum, some of them may be terrible, and all of them are biased from the literature I have read and enjoyed in the past.
I have attempted to develop my ideas using (what I understand to be) the governing creative principles of Clok. Namely, I have tried to keep the following mechanics foremost in my mind while considering the University:
Role-play mechanics (these govern some guild-specific game mechanics):
Elemancers are scholars first (by and large)
Elemancers use of "magic" is focused solely on manipulation of elements
Game mechanics:
Elemancers are the expensive guild
Players won't be granted skill-gains for risk-free activities, especially combat skills
Players are encouraged to interact with one another
Specialization is encouraged (therefore suggestions should avoid duplicating other guild's abilities)
Recognition points are intended to be currency for one-time perk-level "purchases"
If I have omitted any important mechanics I should also be considering, please let me know.
My goal with these ideas (and hopefully the ensuing discussion) is to determine how the university really should feel. Some of my ideas are mine, some of them are borrowed from my readings in other threads in this forum, some of them may be terrible, and all of them are biased from the literature I have read and enjoyed in the past.
I have attempted to develop my ideas using (what I understand to be) the governing creative principles of Clok. Namely, I have tried to keep the following mechanics foremost in my mind while considering the University:
Role-play mechanics (these govern some guild-specific game mechanics):
Elemancers are scholars first (by and large)
Elemancers use of "magic" is focused solely on manipulation of elements
Game mechanics:
Elemancers are the expensive guild
Players won't be granted skill-gains for risk-free activities, especially combat skills
Players are encouraged to interact with one another
Specialization is encouraged (therefore suggestions should avoid duplicating other guild's abilities)
Recognition points are intended to be currency for one-time perk-level "purchases"
If I have omitted any important mechanics I should also be considering, please let me know.
Last edited by qinweiqi on Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Elemancers as academics
Part I: What do academics do?
Academics study, ponder, debate, teach, research, observe, measure, record, publish, and argue (among other things). I think, to be an academic means to have a love of learning, and a curiosity about the world around oneself. For elemancers, this will mean curiosity about elements (namely air, fire, water, and earth) in all their forms, natural and otherwise.
Part II: Academic hazards
The first thing which has weighed on me as I've read through the forums is what the risks of elemancers would generally entail. This is of importance because under the underlying mechanics above, there can be no reward without risk. The most straight forward risks have been proposed in the past, namely monetary costs and (preferably minimal) injuries. These are perhaps the best starting place for ideas of risk because they apply to all players within Clok, but that also mean's that they aren't terribly well tailored to elemancers. However, when I thought about risks, I asked myself, "What are the risks of an academic?" The following list is probably quite incomplete, but it is what I have thought of thus far.
Hazards of an academic (and their corresponding game mechanic)
Some additional notes on the above: lab, lecture, and library bans will only be as relevant as labs, lectures, and library access. There are also varying degrees of most of the hazards above, as well as different ways to implement them. What I personally imagine being the worst hazard is actually the failure item above.
Academics study, ponder, debate, teach, research, observe, measure, record, publish, and argue (among other things). I think, to be an academic means to have a love of learning, and a curiosity about the world around oneself. For elemancers, this will mean curiosity about elements (namely air, fire, water, and earth) in all their forms, natural and otherwise.
Part II: Academic hazards
The first thing which has weighed on me as I've read through the forums is what the risks of elemancers would generally entail. This is of importance because under the underlying mechanics above, there can be no reward without risk. The most straight forward risks have been proposed in the past, namely monetary costs and (preferably minimal) injuries. These are perhaps the best starting place for ideas of risk because they apply to all players within Clok, but that also mean's that they aren't terribly well tailored to elemancers. However, when I thought about risks, I asked myself, "What are the risks of an academic?" The following list is probably quite incomplete, but it is what I have thought of thus far.
Hazards of an academic (and their corresponding game mechanic)
- Failure/non-advancement (no skill gain, lost time, possibly lost reputation and/or guild points)
- Expenses/Fees (direct monetary costs)
- Loss of reputation (lose reputation points and/or guild points)
- Non-payment (receiving no compensation for university tasks)
- Personal destruction of property (damaged/destroyed gear, appropriate for labs should they exist)
- Injury (labs, if applicable, also preferably not immediately fatal injuries, but injuries that'd bleed out quickly wouldn't be inappropriate)
- Disciplinary actions:
- Expulsion, permanent (should be reserved as a RP disciplinary action only)
- Expulsion, non-permanent (no admittance to the University (including dormatories) without re-paying the 5000 riln (or reduced fee that won't cover an additional wand) entry fee, no training or tasks from any elemancers located outside of the university. Possibly also RP only.)
- Suspension (no access to any tasks/training from NPC elemancers, no access to library or university store during suspension.)
- Fees (effectively suspended until a set fee is paid.)
- Library ban (loss of access to the library)
- Assignment of menial jobs without pay (and no opportunity for other tasks until the menial task is completed)
- Lab/lecture ban (loss of access to register for classes)
Some additional notes on the above: lab, lecture, and library bans will only be as relevant as labs, lectures, and library access. There are also varying degrees of most of the hazards above, as well as different ways to implement them. What I personally imagine being the worst hazard is actually the failure item above.
Re: Elemancers as academics
Part III: Things that need doing
A university is often large, and I believe that may be assumed to be the cause with the University of Elemancy as well. It is sufficiently that students live there. This means that there are probably a lot of things that need doing. Some of the jobs might be performed by works who travel from the nearby hamlet of Keth. However, by and large, the majority of the work would be done by students or staff of the University. Here are some of the things they would have to do (keep in mind that not all of them would be good tasks, though some would make good menial chores):
A university is often large, and I believe that may be assumed to be the cause with the University of Elemancy as well. It is sufficiently that students live there. This means that there are probably a lot of things that need doing. Some of the jobs might be performed by works who travel from the nearby hamlet of Keth. However, by and large, the majority of the work would be done by students or staff of the University. Here are some of the things they would have to do (keep in mind that not all of them would be good tasks, though some would make good menial chores):
- Cleaning! Every place gets messy, places where elemancy is practiced doubly so (if not more).
- Copying of text books. They don't grow on trees and they need to exist (with words and everything) before they can get sold to students.
- Copying of library books. Essential to this era of library to preserve books.
- Organizing of library books. (also fetching of allowed reading materials for the reading room if there is a restricted access section.)
- Gathering of branches of the appropriate wood for crafting of wands.
- Carving/crafting wands. Even if players are not allowed to create wands, they might should be able to carve the wood for someone else to "enchant".
- Teaching.
- Cooking.
- Researching.
- Writing original material (or publishing).
Re: Elemancers as academics
Part IV: Smaller notes
For disciplinary action to exist as more than a random hazard, there must be rules. I imagine some of the rules are as follows:
It seems that there would be something of a sliding scale for elemancers, including:
How does enchanting work?
Namely, how do wands work?
Can any elemancer just get a branch and carve a wand?
For disciplinary action to exist as more than a random hazard, there must be rules. I imagine some of the rules are as follows:
- All common laws of civilization (no assault, murder, theft, vandalism, etc.)
- Absolutely NO channeling in the library! (No incinerating pyromancy, no dirty geomancy, no moisture-inducing hydromancy, and no disruptive aeromancy)
- If the library includes a reading room: NO TALKING! (it is a library after all)
- No unauthorized access of restricted rooms (class, lab, or library rooms? perhaps some jouneyman and masters only and/or masters only)
It seems that there would be something of a sliding scale for elemancers, including:
- Student (anyone who has paid the entrance fee and obtained an apprentice 'mancy; could attend classes/lectures and do labs)
- If lectures/labs are added, students may be further subdivided:
- Active student (pay term tuition and sign up for lectures/labs)
- Inactive student (paid entrance fee, no term tuition and no lecture/lab access)
- Something like a student teacher (anyone who has obtained a journeyman rank, or an arbitrarily high level of elemancy skill (honorary journeymen?); can attend lectures/labs (if term tuition paid), perform research, or lead lectures/labs.)
- Teacher (anyone who has obtained a master or obtained a absurd amount of elemancy skill (honorary master?), masters could lead lab/lecture, research, and publish, though publishing would most likely be an RP only type deal)
How does enchanting work?
Namely, how do wands work?
Can any elemancer just get a branch and carve a wand?
Re: Elemancers as academics
I won't give any guarantees on anything in particuar being used, but this is awesome stuff. Please, continue.
I wouldn't use the term "enchanting" along with elemancy. I'm not a big fan of the term because of the impressions it gives and the assumptions it prompts, and I would probably ony really associate it with Druidry in CLOK. Kinda.How does enchanting work?
Wands (and element-wielding staffs) are, in a nutshell, a piece of material that is sturdy but not detrimental to channeling within which is placed a (relatively) basic, minor elemental pattern. On its own the pattern does absolutely nothing - however, someone trained in the basics of Elemancy can channel through the item to cause the pattern within to manifest and cause a minor conjuration of that element. I haven't decided whether wand materials (different types of wood) actually have an impact or are just used for convenience of organizaition (alder used for fire patterns, for instance). It might be that the structures of certain woods make them slightly more compatible with specific elemental patterns, but by no means are elemental wands/staffs/anything-else restricted to certain materials for certain elements. Wands could be made of bone as well.Namely, how do wands work?
Nope. The pattern within is extremely complicated and fine, and difficult to produce with enough accuracy to actually work in conjurations. I'm thinking they're etched into/from crystal somehow, but I'm still foggy on the details. There are probably other wand and items of a similar concept that are made in differing ways, but with the University, I'm thinking they stick to what they consider the best method - crystal.Can any elemancer just get a branch and carve a wand?
The lore compels me!
Re: Elemancers as academics
So wooden wands with a crystal core specific to the element. Presumably expensive and with a high grade of purity.
Re: Elemancers as academics
Alright, now that I've posted all of the background stuff, lets get to the nitty-gritty.
I like the lecture and lab idea, but it also has some problems. It feels highly academic, which fits elemancers, and now that we have established some hazards, we can talk about how this might mechanically work. I suspect it should work somewhat like lectures and labs in real life, you need to sign up in advance (before the series starts), pay a fee, and then some mixture of attend, study, and take exams over the duration of the course. The duration is tricky, and rather important. Too long and it is difficult for players to see it through to the end, too short and it is unrealistic and not sufficiently challenging. Lets come back to duration. Also, lets focus on lecture classes first and get back to labs later.
What is the reward?
Classes should give skill gains and perhaps some recognition and/or guild points (same for labs, though it may be fun to split reputation to one and guild to the other). Skill gain should scale with time invested (but cap). If one puts in minimal work to scrape by, it shouldn't be worth much. More time, more reward. But also, more time more risk. Skill gains should be capped in two regards: to what level the class can get you (ie, entry level classes will only get you so far, more advanced classes are required for gains from higher up), and how many you can gain from each sitting (we don't expect you to hit journeyman level from intro to hydromantic patterns once).
Where is the risk?
As I see it, classes would have the following risks: failure and fees. The fee is pretty straight forward, you pay that up front. Failure would mean that you make no skill gain (and effectively get nothing for the fee), possibly lose some recognition points for failing really badly, and hence have potential to be worse off than when you started -- a nice amount of risk for your time investment.
What about timing again?
Ok, so we have a basic idea of how the course should work, but how long should it be? If you make it a month, that is quite a long time to invest before seeing any skill gain return, and skill gains immediately as you study doesn't make any sense if one of the hazards is no skill gain. (We know that some Clok players are pretty patient because, for instance, farming can take some time, and there are folks that'll do it for longer than a week without seeing any monetary return while facing the risk of crop theft should someone decide to be opportunistic and industrious. We can expect academic elemancers to among the more patient, as academics should be.) However, these shorter time frames seem rather out of character for a university course.
I propose a system that tries to combine both. You sign up for a class (classes should probably only be 4-6 weeks long for the sake of helping players IRL not get over Clok'ed as it were). Once you're signed up, you STUDY <course> and EXAM <course>. Taking exams functions as a checkpoint for the class and I think they should be at least weekly (but to me daily seems too often). So, once you do the exam, you gain skill (or don't) and gain reputation (or not, or lose some). Upon taking the last exam for the class you get the last 'update' for the class and perhaps an overall gain or loss based on overall success. I think this might provide a nice medium between classes of sufficient length and progress players can feel.
Alternatively, you may want each course to only be a certain number of exams and no set time pace. This is unrealistic with a lecture system, but very realistic with a tutor type study system. This would allow somebody to study for an exam all morning, take an exam in the afternoon, and maybe do something fun in the evening. This system would make the balance of how long you can study a little more important. But it would also mean that it is less of a big deal if real life issues come up and you need to disappear for a month right after signing up for classes (though Clok should be the least of your concerns in that situation and you could probably retcon a class-drop letter later). Also, since skill gain is based on time spent studying, a student really gets to decide how to get their money's worth for the class tuition. Studying and completing a 5 exam course in a week really won't get you the skill gains of passing it in 3 or 4 or even 5 weeks.
Pass or fail?
I imagine that passing a given exam would be a function of elemancer skills, the time spent studying, and the difficulty of the class. Elemancer skills tested against would be the relevant elemancy skill and possibly also channeling, and they'd be checked against in a fashion similar to combat, where the elemancy skill is the specific skill (more relevant) and channeling the general skill (less relevant). Including channeling will make it such that a master aeromancer would do better in hydromancy 101 than an apprentice hydromancer (provided their hydromancy skill levels are the same), which I like because it reflects some of the synergy present in learning in real life. Class attendance, as with real universities, is optional, but studying in class with a lecturer present should give some bonus to studying (covered more later).
It is possible that the pass/fail should take into account gradation. By that I mean that you may be told that you pass or fail, but you could pass or fail with varying levels. Passing by a better margin gets you more skill and recognition while barely passing should get less skill and no recognition. Likewise, barely failing would yield no skill gains, but also no recognition loss. Failing spectacularly should lose some reputation points. Not taking exams at all would be a sure-fire way to fail spectacularly (though you might be able to make up missed exams prior to the course ending; ie. life happens, you miss a week, you take two exams the next week, I think you should be good. Much like real life, you should also be able to drop classes given appropriate circumstances. This should probably be done via a letter to the headmaster. "Because I forgot to study" isn't a good reason).
How to balance the effects of studying and existing skill levels is also important, but perhaps not as much as you might think. Consider this example with arbitrary numbers:
Jeff the elemancer is at 299 Pyromancy and the cap for Academic Pyromania 102 is 300 (IE, he could only gain 1 more skill point from taking the class). This means he pretty well knows all the material for the class. Could he show up on exam day and pass without studying at all? Realistically, very yes. Would he gain any skill from doing that? Absolutely not. This is why skill gain should be tied to time spent studying. Now consider Julio the elemancer. He is as green as they come and has a whooping Geomancy skill of 0.5. By virtue of skill alone, he has not the slightest hope in the world of passing. That means he needs to put his nose to the grindstone and study his life away. Perhaps the course description stated that his class should take 10 hours of studying per exam (or he was told this immediately prior to signing up, etc.). He could study for 10 hours and have a decent chance of passing. It'll be easier if he is studying with Professor Bumblebore, and harder if he is studying with Professor Pfefferous Fape (ie, difficulty has a somewhat predictable level but some variance). Julio decides instead to study for 100 hours. Will he pass his next exam? Almost certainly. Will he gain the maximum skill points for that exam? Also probably yes, but he probably shouldn't gain 10 times as much skill as someone who only studied 10 hours. This is the law of diminishing returns, which absolutely applies to academia. Thus, students will need to find the right amount of studying for them, and that may be different for each student.
A matter of magnitude
Some have suggested that if you're only getting skill gains from classes once a week, they've got to be massive to be comparable to a week of combat grinding. However, that isn't really the trade-off. The skill gains shouldn't be roughly in line with a week of combat grinding because students taking classes will still be able to go out and combat grind (that's right, there are some elemancers who will choose to live a life that isn't purely academic). So, the skill gains should be roughly equivalent to the combat grinding equivalent of the study hours spent. It may be a little higher if you want to encourage everyone to take classes, it may be lower depending on how studying is implemented.
STUDYing and taking EXAMs
Studying should require books or more advanced students present, and should probably give a bonus if the student is present in a lecture while studying. Roundtime should probably be short and auto-repeating (like foraging, weeding, carving, etc.). But how do you discourage the endless grind? In real life studying is exhausting, and probably should be in Clok as well. Most students who've had the experience of sitting and studying for 4 hours straight feel a stroll or a nap would be a great idea. Many students who've tried to lie down to study for 4 hours have awoken sometime later to realize their time wasn't as fruitful (for studying at least) as they'd hoped. So, perhaps studying should have an energy cost or risk of falling asleep (more so if lying down) or both (leaving some students thinking it might be a good idea to lie down to fight the energy drain). There is also possibility of drifting off into day-dreaming, and if that happens not much is obtained from studying.
So, I see a few ways of implementing studying: (1) you simply code diminishing returns into studying so that your studying won't do as much if you grind out more than X hours/minutes at once. This is straight forward, but also a little boring. (2) you could add some random events (You start to nod off) or (You start to daydream) and then the students need to do something to change up their study. I'm not sure if that would just be change position (sit, stand, lay) or if you'd want to create new verbs like 'focus' or something else. Something more interactive and less scriptable would be ideal, but nothing is coming to mind at the moment. Alternatively (3) you could just combine the two and make the period of effective studying variable and the prompts from (2) become the IC system warning that your study time is starting to be less effective.
Exams should probably be large chunk roundtime, with all the fun silly restrictions of academia (no books, no ESP, perhaps others), although examinations of this sort of era would have tended to be one-on-one interviews with the professor rather than written exams graded after the fact. The professor would ask questions based on general and specific student expectations or perhaps have a (NOT A TRAINING) dummy for practical exams. That is, the professor would watch you channel at the dummy and you get no skill from the channeling, but he uses that to evaluate you.
Edit to add: I'd want the syntax for courses to be STUDY <course> and EXAM <course> so that you could torture yourself with an outrageous class load in true academic form. Although one would need to have deep pockets to get a truly burdensome class load.
Problems problems problems
So, I've described some game mechanic ideas, but as presented thus far studying would most likely be INCREDIBLY BORING. Sitting and watching your character study for long periods would be drudgery of the finest form. Perks of studying in groups (not in the library) is that you could chat in character. In the library, you could still ESP chat together (many would ask that here I emphasize that this should take place on the university ESP channel, whatever color that is (I'm not sure)). Students in the library reading rooms that didn't want the distractions should obviously not be wearing pendants. But aside from the joy of chatting, I have no clue of how to pretty this up IC to make it more entertaining than watching paint dry.
I like the lecture and lab idea, but it also has some problems. It feels highly academic, which fits elemancers, and now that we have established some hazards, we can talk about how this might mechanically work. I suspect it should work somewhat like lectures and labs in real life, you need to sign up in advance (before the series starts), pay a fee, and then some mixture of attend, study, and take exams over the duration of the course. The duration is tricky, and rather important. Too long and it is difficult for players to see it through to the end, too short and it is unrealistic and not sufficiently challenging. Lets come back to duration. Also, lets focus on lecture classes first and get back to labs later.
What is the reward?
Classes should give skill gains and perhaps some recognition and/or guild points (same for labs, though it may be fun to split reputation to one and guild to the other). Skill gain should scale with time invested (but cap). If one puts in minimal work to scrape by, it shouldn't be worth much. More time, more reward. But also, more time more risk. Skill gains should be capped in two regards: to what level the class can get you (ie, entry level classes will only get you so far, more advanced classes are required for gains from higher up), and how many you can gain from each sitting (we don't expect you to hit journeyman level from intro to hydromantic patterns once).
Where is the risk?
As I see it, classes would have the following risks: failure and fees. The fee is pretty straight forward, you pay that up front. Failure would mean that you make no skill gain (and effectively get nothing for the fee), possibly lose some recognition points for failing really badly, and hence have potential to be worse off than when you started -- a nice amount of risk for your time investment.
What about timing again?
Ok, so we have a basic idea of how the course should work, but how long should it be? If you make it a month, that is quite a long time to invest before seeing any skill gain return, and skill gains immediately as you study doesn't make any sense if one of the hazards is no skill gain. (We know that some Clok players are pretty patient because, for instance, farming can take some time, and there are folks that'll do it for longer than a week without seeing any monetary return while facing the risk of crop theft should someone decide to be opportunistic and industrious. We can expect academic elemancers to among the more patient, as academics should be.) However, these shorter time frames seem rather out of character for a university course.
I propose a system that tries to combine both. You sign up for a class (classes should probably only be 4-6 weeks long for the sake of helping players IRL not get over Clok'ed as it were). Once you're signed up, you STUDY <course> and EXAM <course>. Taking exams functions as a checkpoint for the class and I think they should be at least weekly (but to me daily seems too often). So, once you do the exam, you gain skill (or don't) and gain reputation (or not, or lose some). Upon taking the last exam for the class you get the last 'update' for the class and perhaps an overall gain or loss based on overall success. I think this might provide a nice medium between classes of sufficient length and progress players can feel.
Alternatively, you may want each course to only be a certain number of exams and no set time pace. This is unrealistic with a lecture system, but very realistic with a tutor type study system. This would allow somebody to study for an exam all morning, take an exam in the afternoon, and maybe do something fun in the evening. This system would make the balance of how long you can study a little more important. But it would also mean that it is less of a big deal if real life issues come up and you need to disappear for a month right after signing up for classes (though Clok should be the least of your concerns in that situation and you could probably retcon a class-drop letter later). Also, since skill gain is based on time spent studying, a student really gets to decide how to get their money's worth for the class tuition. Studying and completing a 5 exam course in a week really won't get you the skill gains of passing it in 3 or 4 or even 5 weeks.
Pass or fail?
I imagine that passing a given exam would be a function of elemancer skills, the time spent studying, and the difficulty of the class. Elemancer skills tested against would be the relevant elemancy skill and possibly also channeling, and they'd be checked against in a fashion similar to combat, where the elemancy skill is the specific skill (more relevant) and channeling the general skill (less relevant). Including channeling will make it such that a master aeromancer would do better in hydromancy 101 than an apprentice hydromancer (provided their hydromancy skill levels are the same), which I like because it reflects some of the synergy present in learning in real life. Class attendance, as with real universities, is optional, but studying in class with a lecturer present should give some bonus to studying (covered more later).
It is possible that the pass/fail should take into account gradation. By that I mean that you may be told that you pass or fail, but you could pass or fail with varying levels. Passing by a better margin gets you more skill and recognition while barely passing should get less skill and no recognition. Likewise, barely failing would yield no skill gains, but also no recognition loss. Failing spectacularly should lose some reputation points. Not taking exams at all would be a sure-fire way to fail spectacularly (though you might be able to make up missed exams prior to the course ending; ie. life happens, you miss a week, you take two exams the next week, I think you should be good. Much like real life, you should also be able to drop classes given appropriate circumstances. This should probably be done via a letter to the headmaster. "Because I forgot to study" isn't a good reason).
How to balance the effects of studying and existing skill levels is also important, but perhaps not as much as you might think. Consider this example with arbitrary numbers:
Jeff the elemancer is at 299 Pyromancy and the cap for Academic Pyromania 102 is 300 (IE, he could only gain 1 more skill point from taking the class). This means he pretty well knows all the material for the class. Could he show up on exam day and pass without studying at all? Realistically, very yes. Would he gain any skill from doing that? Absolutely not. This is why skill gain should be tied to time spent studying. Now consider Julio the elemancer. He is as green as they come and has a whooping Geomancy skill of 0.5. By virtue of skill alone, he has not the slightest hope in the world of passing. That means he needs to put his nose to the grindstone and study his life away. Perhaps the course description stated that his class should take 10 hours of studying per exam (or he was told this immediately prior to signing up, etc.). He could study for 10 hours and have a decent chance of passing. It'll be easier if he is studying with Professor Bumblebore, and harder if he is studying with Professor Pfefferous Fape (ie, difficulty has a somewhat predictable level but some variance). Julio decides instead to study for 100 hours. Will he pass his next exam? Almost certainly. Will he gain the maximum skill points for that exam? Also probably yes, but he probably shouldn't gain 10 times as much skill as someone who only studied 10 hours. This is the law of diminishing returns, which absolutely applies to academia. Thus, students will need to find the right amount of studying for them, and that may be different for each student.
A matter of magnitude
Some have suggested that if you're only getting skill gains from classes once a week, they've got to be massive to be comparable to a week of combat grinding. However, that isn't really the trade-off. The skill gains shouldn't be roughly in line with a week of combat grinding because students taking classes will still be able to go out and combat grind (that's right, there are some elemancers who will choose to live a life that isn't purely academic). So, the skill gains should be roughly equivalent to the combat grinding equivalent of the study hours spent. It may be a little higher if you want to encourage everyone to take classes, it may be lower depending on how studying is implemented.
STUDYing and taking EXAMs
Studying should require books or more advanced students present, and should probably give a bonus if the student is present in a lecture while studying. Roundtime should probably be short and auto-repeating (like foraging, weeding, carving, etc.). But how do you discourage the endless grind? In real life studying is exhausting, and probably should be in Clok as well. Most students who've had the experience of sitting and studying for 4 hours straight feel a stroll or a nap would be a great idea. Many students who've tried to lie down to study for 4 hours have awoken sometime later to realize their time wasn't as fruitful (for studying at least) as they'd hoped. So, perhaps studying should have an energy cost or risk of falling asleep (more so if lying down) or both (leaving some students thinking it might be a good idea to lie down to fight the energy drain). There is also possibility of drifting off into day-dreaming, and if that happens not much is obtained from studying.
So, I see a few ways of implementing studying: (1) you simply code diminishing returns into studying so that your studying won't do as much if you grind out more than X hours/minutes at once. This is straight forward, but also a little boring. (2) you could add some random events (You start to nod off) or (You start to daydream) and then the students need to do something to change up their study. I'm not sure if that would just be change position (sit, stand, lay) or if you'd want to create new verbs like 'focus' or something else. Something more interactive and less scriptable would be ideal, but nothing is coming to mind at the moment. Alternatively (3) you could just combine the two and make the period of effective studying variable and the prompts from (2) become the IC system warning that your study time is starting to be less effective.
Exams should probably be large chunk roundtime, with all the fun silly restrictions of academia (no books, no ESP, perhaps others), although examinations of this sort of era would have tended to be one-on-one interviews with the professor rather than written exams graded after the fact. The professor would ask questions based on general and specific student expectations or perhaps have a (NOT A TRAINING) dummy for practical exams. That is, the professor would watch you channel at the dummy and you get no skill from the channeling, but he uses that to evaluate you.
Edit to add: I'd want the syntax for courses to be STUDY <course> and EXAM <course> so that you could torture yourself with an outrageous class load in true academic form. Although one would need to have deep pockets to get a truly burdensome class load.
Problems problems problems
So, I've described some game mechanic ideas, but as presented thus far studying would most likely be INCREDIBLY BORING. Sitting and watching your character study for long periods would be drudgery of the finest form. Perks of studying in groups (not in the library) is that you could chat in character. In the library, you could still ESP chat together (many would ask that here I emphasize that this should take place on the university ESP channel, whatever color that is (I'm not sure)). Students in the library reading rooms that didn't want the distractions should obviously not be wearing pendants. But aside from the joy of chatting, I have no clue of how to pretty this up IC to make it more entertaining than watching paint dry.
Last edited by qinweiqi on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:37 am, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Elemancers as academics
Ok, now for a nice, light post.
I've been thinking and I have a task idea, though it needs some fleshing out.
Elemancers could be assigned to go to an area (or go to some TYPE of area (forest, plains, swamp, etc.)) and observe/record the elemental flow present. You would need a blank piece of parchment and a pen (and ink, haha), travel to the area of interest, cast elemental detection, and OBSERVE and RECORD the various elemental patterns. Have fun fluff statements like "you observe helical air flows around a shrub". For pyromancers, you have the added fun of needing to start a fire in the relevant area. Geo and Aero could be done anywhere, Hydro needs to be a place where there is some water present (though raining could count, and maybe also mist). When you are done, you turn your elemental flow diagram in to the task master, who sends it to the library where they have an amazing catalog of fun elemental designs. (Note that geo flow would be observing how things presently rest, or recognizing patterns in how things have naturally formed over time; though starting avalanches in the mountains could also be fun for observation =P).
I've been thinking and I have a task idea, though it needs some fleshing out.
Elemancers could be assigned to go to an area (or go to some TYPE of area (forest, plains, swamp, etc.)) and observe/record the elemental flow present. You would need a blank piece of parchment and a pen (and ink, haha), travel to the area of interest, cast elemental detection, and OBSERVE and RECORD the various elemental patterns. Have fun fluff statements like "you observe helical air flows around a shrub". For pyromancers, you have the added fun of needing to start a fire in the relevant area. Geo and Aero could be done anywhere, Hydro needs to be a place where there is some water present (though raining could count, and maybe also mist). When you are done, you turn your elemental flow diagram in to the task master, who sends it to the library where they have an amazing catalog of fun elemental designs. (Note that geo flow would be observing how things presently rest, or recognizing patterns in how things have naturally formed over time; though starting avalanches in the mountains could also be fun for observation =P).
Re: Elemancers as academics
I'm not exactly sure why we need another form of currency in a Reputation system that no other guild puts up with. Further, the path of the Elemancer is already the hardest in the game, it was designed that way by Rias and his ilk. A lot of what you propose would increase the difficulty and time sink that the class already is.
I do like some of the things you're suggesting as alternatives to the 'survey' tasks. However, they should be put in place like crafting skills. Labs and study sessions should consist of hard RT where you can't do anything else and not require the player to have daily, weekly, or monthly check in's in order to make it worth anything. I enjoy the game but I cannot dedicate my life to checking in on a regulated basis and I shouldn't suffer for being a casual player. Hard core grinders might dedicate the kind of time you're asking for but most of us wont.
We're already a low population game and I would argue that our GM's have done a good job with balance. The elemancer guild is hard for them to make adjustments and improvements in because of the nature of the academics...let's not make it even harder. We already get roughly 1/3 the guild points and riln that others get per completed task. That in itself is a reason not to instate that 500 riln per semester or what have you because we're doing course study work for the professors and getting paid dirt cheap prices for it. Any real life students doing work for the professors are getting huge amounts of their tuition paid for to pursue those tasks.
I do like some of the things you're suggesting as alternatives to the 'survey' tasks. However, they should be put in place like crafting skills. Labs and study sessions should consist of hard RT where you can't do anything else and not require the player to have daily, weekly, or monthly check in's in order to make it worth anything. I enjoy the game but I cannot dedicate my life to checking in on a regulated basis and I shouldn't suffer for being a casual player. Hard core grinders might dedicate the kind of time you're asking for but most of us wont.
We're already a low population game and I would argue that our GM's have done a good job with balance. The elemancer guild is hard for them to make adjustments and improvements in because of the nature of the academics...let's not make it even harder. We already get roughly 1/3 the guild points and riln that others get per completed task. That in itself is a reason not to instate that 500 riln per semester or what have you because we're doing course study work for the professors and getting paid dirt cheap prices for it. Any real life students doing work for the professors are getting huge amounts of their tuition paid for to pursue those tasks.
Re: Elemancers as academics
I'm sorry, I think you may have misunderstood my purpose. Anything I've suggested above isn't suggested to replace anything. It would only add an option that you would be under no obligation to even consider, and that is if the above ideas even get implemented. You could still be an elemancer that learns elemancy through the thrill of combat, and many others would take that route as well. Especially since the payoffs would be about the same and you can actually get money from battling, unlike tuition which just costs more. In short, what I propose is not intended to take away anything, and I mean anything, that you can already do right now.Aerotine wrote:I'm not exactly sure why we need another form of currency in a Reputation system that no other guild puts up with. Further, the path of the Elemancer is already the hardest in the game, it was designed that way by Rias and his ilk. A lot of what you propose would increase the difficulty and time sink that the class already is.
I'm not proposing classes as an alternative to tasks, not in the least. Tasks are what academic elemancers do inbetween classes and how they earn enough money to pay tuition next semester. Lectures and labs would be a separate and new thing, that could provide elemancers an alternative to combat as the primary means of skill gain.Aerotine wrote:I do like some of the things you're suggesting as alternatives to the 'survey' tasks. However, they should be put in place like crafting skills. Labs and study sessions should consist of hard RT where you can't do anything else and not require the player to have daily, weekly, or monthly check in's in order to make it worth anything. I enjoy the game but I cannot dedicate my life to checking in on a regulated basis and I shouldn't suffer for being a casual player. Hard core grinders might dedicate the kind of time you're asking for but most of us wont.
As for roundtimes, I've thought about longer roundtimes (I assume that is what you mean by hard RT). My end conclusion was that it would just be a different kind of grind, and one where you wouldn't have the recourse of typing 'stop' to go and do something else. I do, however, love that it would be much more realistic in terms of how one normally takes courses at a university. How long of hard roundtimes are you imagining? When you say 'like a craft skill' that somewhat appeals to me, because certainly some student work could be described that way (crafting essays for example). What exactly did you have in mind when you said 'like a craft skill'? Also, if you can, please tell me what appeals to you about the hard RTs. I haven't played an elemancer so I fully admit that I lack some key insights.