Melee Flares

[Aerotine]

Why, when channeling an element through our weapons during melee, we don't improve in that element at all for a successful hit?

" Elemancers can utilize their influence over the elements to enhance combat skills that they learn independently from general trainers or independent practice. As an example, an Elemancer might channel fire while swinging a sword for a chance to accompany a sword strike with a burst of fire."

It would stand to reason, because we are channeling, it requires the same focus and force of will do make the element flare from within us, to our weapons...

So why do we get skill ups for successful hits with the element when we throw it from our hands but not when it pulses from our hands through our weapons?

Could we possibly get this added or could someone explain the logic that would render this adverse to the guild?

[Lysse]

viewtopic.php?p=10927#p10927

This is an older post, but I believe it's still relevant to your question.

[Aerotine]

Thanks for the link Lysse.

I still have to say I don't understand. No offense intended but most things in the game have logic behind it, this seems to contradict the logic within other skills. However, this linked post does seem to be more based on the Templar's where I can totally understand the logic of not being able to flare the "inner light" at will. My brother is a Templar and he agrees with Rias on the templar version but not on the elemancer level.

Rias said "I don't plan on adding skillgain to flares. There's not a lot of skill going into adding a brief raw burst into a weapon swing, and the chance for flares isn't based on their related skill, nor do they have any kind of accuracy or damage boost based on any skill - they're automatic.

Characters who choose to "hybridize" their style or skillset can choose to opt out of the abilities that require skills they don't wish to skill up. For instance, a Templar can choose not to focus on training thaumaturgy and simply ignore abilities like Spear of Light and Sun Disc if they choose to focus on the physical combat aspect of their guild."

As it regards to an Elemenacer, if the chance to flare is just automatic, why doesn't it happen on every swing. If there's not a lot of skill involved in the actual composition of the "flare" whatever the element is...then why even have a numerical skill associated for the elements like Pyromancy.

If the ability to conjure the fire, and infuse it through an item, isn't a challenge or something that needs to be worked on, why not just make Geo/Pyro/Aero/Hydro-mancy an ability instead of a skill?

Why not just have moving to the next tier of whatever element based on your Channeling ability? You already have the necessary components in place to follow the current flare logic. You must master Marksmanship to be able to throw the fire accurately & you must master channeling to be able to maintain the stream...it seems odd to me that if Pyromancy as a skill's only purpose is to work your way up to master, it is simply a time sink for the sake of being a time sink.

I would like to see at least some amount of skill gain on the element for the flares. It really doesn't stand for logic to say, it requires skill to conjure fire to throw but not to conjure fire to channel through a weapon.

Honestly, I think there is an overlap on the marksmanship and element skill gain as well -- Why do you only get skill ups for pyromancy if you actually make contact...did you not summon the fire and throw it? Marksmanship is what improves if you hit...why does the element only increase when it actually hits. You did all the necessary work to make the element...why wouldn't that improve your skill?

[TwistedAkai]

If elemental flares aren't effected by skill, then I can certainly see them not giving gains, given it would likely be a momentary burst/loss of control caused by focusing on trying to hit something. This is probably the logic behind the skill gain issue.

As for ranking up the element on each cast, I would like to see the logic for this follow the logic for each of the other weapon skills, both for skill gains and function. If it's already doing that, I can think of little reason to change it, given channeling would be your ability to call up, or make available, magic in general, and the element's skill would be your ability to control that specific element, with marksmanship being your aim. Though this might only make sense to me because I watched the Avatar: The Last Airbender series.

[Acarin]

It's already doing this.

[Rias]

As it regards to an Elemenacer, if the chance to flare is just automatic, why doesn't it happen on every swing.

It's a secondary bonus effect. Like many others (armor chinks, criticals, dirty tricks, knockdowns), elemental flares would be silly and overpowered if they happened every single time. Melee flares are supposed to be an added little bonus to elemancers, not a staple or expectation - they're not expected to melee, though of course they can if they want to. Flares are just a nifty little bonus. One that I'm not very fond of, either.

If the ability to conjure the fire, and infuse it through an item, isn't a challenge or something that needs to be worked on, why not just make Geo/Pyro/Aero/Hydro-mancy an ability instead of a skill?

You're not infusing it through an item, you're adding a brief burst near the location of your hands, which are, because you landed the melee hit, close enough to your target to affect them. Because flares aren't a challenging enough action to improve skill, the skill should be removed? I don't follow.

Why not just have moving to the next tier of whatever element based on your Channeling ability? You already have the necessary components in place to follow the current flare logic

Your assumed "flare logic" is flawed.

it seems odd to me that if Pyromancy as a skill's only purpose is to work your way up to master, it is simply a time sink for the sake of being a time sink.

Pyromancy's purpose is to affect your accuracy and effectiveness using spells that involve a pyromancy channel, with a bonus from the more general Marksmanship, if the action requires physical accuracy (which directing a bolt of conjured fire at a target does). Just as firing a bow requires Archery skill primarily, with a bonus from the more general Marksmanship, or swinging a sword primarily requires Swords, with a bonus from the more general Melee. It's far more than a useless skill that only exists as a time sink. Channeling is the ability to open and maintain a channel efficiently, or "channel your will" - not how skilled you are at manipulating and wielding whatever element or other energy you're currently channeling.

I would like to see at least some amount of skill gain on the element for the flares.

Sorry, no.

It really doesn't stand for logic to say, it requires skill to conjure fire to throw but not to conjure fire to channel through a weapon.

The basic conjuration of fire requires the the Apprentice Pyromancy ability. It requires skill to accurately and effectively wield the fire once you've conjured it.

Honestly, I think there is an overlap on the marksmanship and element skill gain as well -- Why do you only get skill ups for pyromancy if you actually make contact...did you not summon the fire and throw it? Marksmanship is what improves if you hit...why does the element only increase when it actually hits. You did all the necessary work to make the element...why wouldn't that improve your skill?

How skilled are you going to get with a slingshot if you only ever fire at targets that are 12 inches in front of you you? Does that require any skill at all, aside from knowing to put the rock in the slingshot, pull it back, and let it go? You learn how to conjure the fire when you take the Apprentice Pyromancy ability. Congratulations, you can conjure fire at 1 skill. You've got the conjuring thing down pat. But are you any good at effectively manipulating and wielding said conjured fire? Not really. That requires practice and skillgains.

[Aerotine]

These are GREAT explanations.

You are correct that my assumptions were flawed. However, the assumptions are all we have to go on when we don't know how much one skill effects another, in the terms of pyromancy and marksmanship. The explanation you gave here is much more in depth and well explained than on the website.

I don't want you to feel like you're coming under attack. These are things that logically should be questioned. For instance, the guy in the first post Lysse linked reported it as a bug, so obviously I'm not the only one that thought it should effect skill gains. The explanation on that page wasn't very thorough and related more to paladins than what you've posted above. With this explanation I now know your reasoning behind it.


[/quote]
How skilled are you going to get with a slingshot if you only ever fire at targets that are 12 inches in front of you you? Does that require any skill at all, aside from knowing to put the rock in the slingshot, pull it back, and let it go? You learn how to conjure the fire when you take the Apprentice Pyromancy ability. Congratulations, you can conjure fire at 1 skill. You've got the conjuring thing down pat. But are you any good at effectively manipulating and wielding said conjured fire? Not really. That requires practice and skillgains.[/quote]

I agree with most of this and a follow up question is, does being in engaged range have a better chance to hit than being at "range" range? Since you said earlier it doesn't take as much skill to flare the weapon because you're close, it would make sense that the closer you are to the target, the easier it is to hit it.

Semi related - if you're trying to throw magical bolts at something but not trying to melee with it, why doesn't it back you up like it does while barraging with a ranged weapon? It is nearly impossible without spending forever trying to break range to to stay at range while casting at targets. Also, can we get a "barrage" type verb for constant casting?

[Noctere]

Also, can we get a "barrage" type verb for constant casting?

Try the "TRANCE" command. This will only work on raw casts though. We have had guild ability TRANCE-ing on the to do list for some time.

[Rias]

does being in engaged range have a better chance to hit than being at "range" range? Since you said earlier it doesne't take as much skill to flare the weapon because you're close, it would make sense that the closer you are to the target, the easier it is to hit it.

It doesn't require skill because you've already hit your target with the melee attack, thus your hand is already right there. No need to account for accuracy, you've already succeeded with that, resulting in a successful melee strike. So you conjure a little burst of the element by your hand, which in turn affects the person your hand is right next to (since it's holding the weapon you currently have sunk into their tender flesh).

I have no intention to make any accuracy differences for "point blank" range with ranged weapons.

if you're trying to throw magical bolts at something but not trying to melee with it, why doesn't it back you up like it does while barraging with a ranged weapon?

Because unlike ranged weapons (in the case of firearms, you can fire in Engage but can't load in Engage), magical bolt combat can be done entirely at Engage position. There's no need to move back out to ranged, even though that might be preferred by some. Rather than forcing magical bolt users to have to put up with needing to break away before being able to attack, we give them the option to do that manually. It's considered a perk, not a penalty. There have been requests for an option to make it so that you try to automatically move to ranged while magic-bolting, like barraging with ranged weapons works, and I agree that's a good idea. Just haven't implemented it yet.

Also, can we get a "barrage" type verb for constant casting?

The trance command does this.

(Note: bolds are for emphasis, and do not denote any anger or frustration - I apologize if it comes across that way)

[Aerotine]

You guys are awesome, thank you for the patience in explaining everything!