Pain Suppression

[Jirato]

Bottom line up front: You'll be getting wounded more easily now, but you'll be reaching winded/tired/exhausted a lot slower.

Unfortunately, it didn't really seem fair that Brotherhood of the Fist members with Pain Suppression were walking around with what was basically the equivalent of rigid leather armor for free without any penalty. It was borderline supernatural, considering Dwaedn Wyr need to rely on the blessing of the Boar spirit for a similar effect. So, I had to tweak it a bit.

Rather than providing set armor padding, you'll now instead receive less energy loss during battle with it. This won't be visually represented (for now), but for example, if you get hit somewhere for 50 damage, that location still gets wounded as normally, but your energy will drop significantly less.

[jilliana]

It makes complete sense.
Now to work on that dodge to tumble. :)

[Acarin]

Considering that our natural armor has now been removed, are we now expected to wear armor in battle? Will there be any option to reduce wounds considering it takes a brawler a very long time to kill things and we're exposed to a lot of hits?

Perhaps this could be some sort of focus type ability that is not constantly active instead?

This was one of three abilities that I've found to be guild defining. Sad to see it go.

[Rias]

Not the guru, but I'm of the opinion that if you're going into combat, you should wear armor regardless of your guild. Even with, say, thieves - while they have various ways of avoiding getting hit, they're going to get hit at some point. Be smart, take the minor encumbrance (and style) hit, and at least wear some light leather if you're going into an open combat situation. People can choose not to, of course, but it's at their own risk. If you don't wear armor, expect to get hurt when you get hit by stuff.

I can see how Brotherhood guys wouldn't wear armor when brawling with other people and stuff, but if you're going out against things with claws, sharp teeth, big weapons ... yeah, I know you're a tough guy and all, but swallow your pride and wear something protective if you want to live. Considering that, as far as I know, the Brotherhood aren't into anything supernatural, they're going to need to wear armor to get damage reduction. I never really bought into the whole "I'm so tough that my skin is naturally as tough as protective garments" thing (in general, not just with this guild). Otherwise, you can bet Dwaedn would have it.

How about some special gear that doesn't look like your typical armor, to save some face? Leather jackets, vests, pants (light leather), metal-studded jackets and pants (brigandine), junk like that? Then you could be wearing protective gear but not lose cool points since it would still be stylin and not "a leather cuirass" or whatever.

[Acarin]

I like the idea of special armor if we're going to need it for protection, but from Arlen's rp it seemed like Brotherhood shunned any kind of armor and weapons. We even have an ability that is reduced in functionality if we wear any armor.

From discussions with Jirato, it seemed like brotherhood members were not intended to wear armor at all and thus the original pain suppression ability.

There are actually martial arts techniques to reduce the amount of "damage" one takes when getting hit. Most of them involve engaging particular muscles at the time of impact to provide a harder striking surface. Additionally, the body actually does toughen against blugeoning/impact with proper training. I've experienced that first hand and know it's possible. It's not that the skin is harder, it's that there's more muscle, microfractures in bone that have resulted in regrowth and strengthening, etc. I don't think this ability was unrealistic or needs to be considered supernatural.

As far as Dwaedn having it, aren't they offensively focused. They have an enormous damage output that allows quick kills. Brotherhood members, while they have a decent damage output, are nowhere near the same and rely on wearing down an opponent by plinking away their energy. This is time intensive and exposes them to hits. I think they at least need some armor that does not severely penalize their abilities. Additionally, Dwaedn do have it in the form of blessing of the boar spirit as Jirato stated.

I don't think that it's reasonable to compare abilities across guilds, either. If we're going to do that, why are Brotherhood members the only ones with a reduced functionality blade slap that doesn't provide parry in tactic none? There's just a penalty in the ability compared to other guilds with it. Why are other guilds able to parry in both tactic parry and tactic none but not the specialty brawler class?We're supposed to be position based but it doesn't make sense to me at all that we completely give up parrying when we're in a neutral stance.

I'm not trying to complain at all here. I'm really enjoying my Fist. Pain suppression was just one of two truly unique abilities that I thought made Fist viable (the other being improved dodge). I'm extremely sad to see it go.

[Rias]

I wasn't trying to compare or balance cross-guild, I was just saying if we were saying someone in a guild that's supposed to be extraordinarily tough gets natural passive damage padding, then I'd find it appropriate for Dwaedn. Also, "offensively focused" doesn't mean "can't have any ability that helps in defense at all ever" - but we've had this conversation before, and it's not really relevant here.

I don't disbelieve that some people can be tougher and damage-resistant than others via various means, but on the level of wearing combat armor? The old Pain Suppression was on par with rigid leather, which is considered "moderately-armored" - a tier above light armor. That seems pretty unbelievable to me if it isn't in some way supernatural. Still, I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

I think rather than straight up damage resistance, Brotherhood could use some other means of increased survival. What about something like chances of automatically adding in stunning/disabling moves to their regular attacks? Stunning your opponent frequently will cause them to lose out on attacks and therefore you'll take less damage. Another idea is preemptive strikes that have a chance to throw off the attacker before they can actually land a strike. Basically, attack/damage denial rather than damage resistance.

Some kind of enhanced grappling might be cool, too, that lessens your opponent's potential to make and land strikes while grappling.

[xavier]

points frantically at his post a while back about advanced brofist brawling.

in responce to

As far as Dwaedn having it, aren't they offensively focused. They have an enormous damage output that allows quick kills. Brotherhood members, while they
have a decent damage output, are nowhere near the same and rely on wearing down an opponent by plinking away their energy. This is time intensive and exposes
them to hits. I think they at least need some armor that does not severely penalize their abilities. Additionally, Dwaedn do have it in the form of blessing
of the boar spirit as Jirato stated.

Specifically the
Brotherhood members, while they
have a decent damage output, are nowhere near the same and rely on wearing down an opponent by plinking away their energy. This is time intensive and exposes
them to hits.
poppy cock, I've had my brawler in a defensive tactic do up to 60 damage per round of combat, average is about 35-40 but with a headbutt at the end of that combo the round time is left with no attack from that enemy incoming. I very very rarely ever have to fight something to exhaustion and while staying unarmored and unencumbered I have seriously been known to forget I was even fighting anything with the amount of tumbling he does because I have the voice gagged for that line. I haven't really done anything on my brawler since this change but unless there were changes made to tumble and improved dodge I suspect that I'll still only get hit once every 10-12 enemies specifically brigands on concord was the last long length fight I did.

[Acarin]

Muay Thai and multiple styles of karate practice body hardening techniques. There are some rather extreme examples for both martial arts. If you'd like a good example, you can look up Morio Higaonna and some of the "power training" videos he's produced. It's not uncommon to plunge hands into barrels of gravel, beat oneself with tree branches, smash logs/baseball bats/bamboo against legs and forearms, pound limbs against rocks, and take repeated full force strikes to multiple body parts. While there's some debate about how healthy this is long term, it is certainly very effective and may come across as supernatural if one doesn't see what goes into it. I can definitely see this giving protection similar to moderate armor (maybe not against slash/hack/stab weapons but...) particularly for blugeoning attacks (taking them repeatedly is often part of the training).

Maybe a new armor class is warranted although I don't really know how well rigid protects against slashing and hacking anyways...

What could be really interesting is a skill associated with body hardening (activated by a new ability with pain suppression as a pre-requisite). As one gets hit, the skill goes up (the equivalent to training), giving no armoring initially but eventually giving a heavy (or moderate) amount of armoring against appropriate damage types like blugeoning and crushing attacks as the skill goes up. Maybe it would only provide a maximum of light armoring against other damage types. This could be really cool as far as guild rp and our reputation as well since it would provide motivation for us to engage in sparring matches with other members of similar skill level or stronger.

I like the idea of increased survival methods. We have a stunning technique already (headbutt) but it rarely activates. The stun pretty much always wears off before the next attack though and doesn't do too much to avoid damage. Maybe if it activated more frequently, it would be a big help. Other stunning/disabling techniques incorporated into our combos would be really cool! Maybe something akin to dirty fighting? I'm not entirely sure why we have dirtkick since the roll for this appears to be stealth based (And we're not at all a stealth class), so maybe this could be swapped out? Pre-emptive strikes would be rather cool as well. I'll think on it and suggest some things. I think I've spoken with GMs about addition of throws and sweeps/reaps before. I'd like to see this as well...

[Acarin]

points frantically at his post a while back about advanced brofist brawling.

poppy cock, I've had my brawler in a defensive tactic do up to 60 damage per round of combat, average is about 35-40 but with a headbutt at the end of that combo the round time is left with no attack from that enemy incoming. I very very rarely ever have to fight something to exhaustion and while staying unarmored and unencumbered I have seriously been known to forget I was even fighting anything with the amount of tumbling he does because I have the voice gagged for that line. I haven't really done anything on my brawler since this change but unless there were changes made to tumble and improved dodge I suspect that I'll still only get hit once every 10-12 enemies specifically brigands on concord was the last long length fight I did.

35-40 average damage in a round of combat spread across multiple body parts. That's my point. How many times do you kill an enemy by severe wounds versus exhaustion? Dwaedn do a lot more damage to a single location often resulting in one hit kills (and more damage overall). Because of this, they are less likely to get hit. Brotherhood members drop opponents by exhausting them, not by strong hits. Therefore, they are in combat with a given enemy a lot longer than a Dwaedn and subject to more attacks. Improved dodge and tumble are amazing together. I'm certainly not debating that.

[Lysse]

It's worth mentioning that the Dwaedn Wyr don't "get" Boar's blessing. They have to spend resources to obtain the blessing for a limited duration, they have to consciously choose Boar's Blessing over other Blessings, and unless I'm mistaken they can't use the blessing too many times, else it stops working (though I could be remembering that incorrectly).

[Jirato]

I'm on my phone right now so I'll keep this short and come back to review/discuss in detail latet, but improved dodge provides quite a significant bonus. I realize it isn't represented visually, but trust me, it's HUGE. Which is why I thought the Armor thing wouldn't be such a huge deal.

[Jirato]

Okay now that I'm home from the restaurant...

Brawler-specific armor - Sounds super cool. Right now, there are penalties for wearing any kind of armor at all. Perhaps if we could come up with some ideas of "brawler" armor that would ignore this penalty, that'd be cool. Maybe make it a new class of armor "light leather" or something. Gimme some item names/descriptions and I'll see what I can do. I need items to sell in the guild shop anyway.

Blade slap penalty - Agree it's kinda silly, the idea was to give a unique bonus to each tactic. I felt giving them parry combined with their high damage output and avoidance would be a bit OP, but it doesn't make sense when monks (used to) and claw get it for any tactic. Maybe this should be made available regardless of tactic. I'm fine with opening it up.

Headbutt only happening rarely - You do know you can manually activate it via the headbutt command, right? The stun duration depends on where it hits and how hard it hits.

Preemptively striking the opponent - Been on the to-do list since the beginning, but a bit trickier to implement and not be OP. I think if I wind up opening up blade slap to any tactic, the counter-attack ability should have different results based on tactic... Original intent was to have it occur on a successful dodge only.

Tumbling for 10+ minutes without getting hit - This is ridiculous. I think I might have tweaked brofist tumble a bit so it works slightly different from thief/mummer tumble, I'll need to double check and possibly change it to work the same. Also probably going to have to put in some sort of cooldown for tumbles. Definitely want a command toggle too so people can actually spar for reals without tumbling all over the place (You have no idea how many times I had to hack in a if target['name'] == 'Arlen': (don't tumble) while sparring with potential guild members...

Also taking suggestions on brawler weapons.

[Acarin]

Okay now that I'm home from the restaurant...

Where did you eat? Was it good? Can I have some?

Brawler-specific armor - Sounds super cool. Right now, there are penalties for wearing any kind of armor at all. Perhaps if we could come up with some ideas of "brawler" armor that would ignore this penalty, that'd be cool. Maybe make it a new class of armor "light leather" or something. Gimme some item names/descriptions and I'll see what I can do. I need items to sell in the guild shop anyway.

I liked some of Rias' suggestions. Metal-threaded or even studded jackets, coats, shirts, vests, tunics, pants, armwraps, handwraps, legwraps, gloves, bandanas/headwraps/facewraps (for head protection), etc could still remain light while offering soft leather or higher (against some attack types) protection. Basically some sort of reinforced cloth.

Blade slap penalty - Agree it's kinda silly, the idea was to give a unique bonus to each tactic. I felt giving them parry combined with their high damage output and avoidance would be a bit OP, but it doesn't make sense when monks (used to) and claw get it for any tactic. Maybe this should be made available regardless of tactic. I'm fine with opening it up.

Yes, please! If you wanted to give a unique bonus in tactic parry, maybe some sort of improved blade slap ability (that provides a substantial parry bonus and allows parrying of some attacks that would not ordinarily be able to be parried).

Headbutt only happening rarely - You do know you can manually activate it via the headbutt command, right? The stun duration depends on where it hits and how hard it hits.

Activating headbutt alone isn't very effective. It's a single strike when we could do more damage with a combo. The stun almost never lasts long enough to attack again before the enemy attacks. It also has a lower chance to hit, being only a single strike. Also, it does not always stun. It's usefulness is really when it's activated during a combo. Using it alone is really only for rp. It's a fun ability though!

Preemptively striking the opponent - Been on the to-do list since the beginning, but a bit trickier to implement and not be OP. I think if I wind up opening up blade slap to any tactic, the counter-attack ability should have different results based on tactic... Original intent was to have it occur on a successful dodge only.

If this was based on tactic, it might motivate me to change tactics for abilities more than I have been. Right now I find that there's no reason to go into tactic offensive (I would lose the additional attaks from intermediate and advanced brawling) and there's no real increase in damage due to crushing from brute force that I can tell. I don't really kill things quicker, just get hit more. I choose tactic none and tactic parry/dodge based on my roll numbers and the opponent, not for ability advantages, really... Would love to see this tactic based combat flushed out more but in a way where there's not a huge advantage, but rather differences in the pace of combat, for choosing different positions.

Tumbling for 10+ minutes without getting hit - This is ridiculous. I think I might have tweaked brofist tumble a bit so it works slightly different from thief/mummer tumble, I'll need to double check and possibly change it to work the same. Also probably going to have to put in some sort of cooldown for tumbles. Definitely want a command toggle too so people can actually spar for reals without tumbling all over the place (You have no idea how many times I had to hack in a if target['name'] == 'Arlen': (don't tumble) while sparring with potential guild members...

Tumble does activate very frequently. I'd say a swing gets through 1 out of 3 times though, not every 10+ minutes (that's a gross overstatement). It seems to depend on whether you're fighting something that is actually a challenge too, in which case strikes get through a lot more easily. I'd hate to see this brought down too much. I think the rt for an attacker after a tumble is only 3 seconds if I'm remembering correctly, so they usually get a second chance to swing at us before we can strike when we do tumble. Considering we're supposed to be dodging masters and more well trained in avoiding blows (with improved dodge) I think it's appropriate that it activates more often than for thieves and mummers who are not supposed to be as combat oriented and do not train to hone their reflexes to an equal degree. That in mind, I'd really hate to see this nerfed too much or a cooldown added.

Also taking suggestions on brawler weapons.

I'd like to see iron-studded hand wraps and footwraps as weapons (for nethrim combat) that don't really affect brawling otherwise. Other brawling weapons include push daggers and brass knuckles (if they don't exist already). Aren't fist members supposed to not rely on weapons though? It seemed like Arlen shuns using anything other than the body. I thought it was that way for armor too but...

Also, is that a no on the body hardening thing? I could see that "skill" impacting brawling damage, type of attacks that could be parried, and other things as well... Could be a really cool addition.

[Jirato]

Aren't fist members supposed to not rely on weapons though? It seemed like Arlen shuns using anything other than the body. I thought it was that way for armor too but...

Also, is that a no on the body hardening thing? I could see that "skill" impacting brawling damage, type of attacks that could be parried, and other things as well... Could be a really cool addition.

That's the way I always wanted it.... I'm pretty concerned about all the comments that it's not a viable method of combat though. Combined with some to-do list stuff that hasn't been announced yet, I feel that without at least giving them some guild-specific items, it's going to be a pretty useless guild.

As for the skill... probably not, not as an actual skill anyway.

[Acarin]

Aren't fist members supposed to not rely on weapons though? It seemed like Arlen shuns using anything other than the body. I thought it was that way for armor too but...

Also, is that a no on the body hardening thing? I could see that "skill" impacting brawling damage, type of attacks that could be parried, and other things as well... Could be a really cool addition.

That's the way I always wanted it.... I'm pretty concerned about all the comments that it's not a viable method of combat though. Combined with some to-do list stuff that hasn't been announced yet, I feel that without at least giving them some guild-specific items, it's going to be a pretty useless guild.

As for the skill... probably not, not as an actual skill anyway.

I think it's perfectly viable, but it needs a little bit of tweaking (not even a lot). We would need some sort of damage reduction to be viable though, but not necessarily as much as before. I can suggest some additional ways this could be implemented that might be more balanced. One would be a muscle tension ability that helps blunt impacts. Maybe a trade off with reduced energy gain while it's active (much like claws and cloak for Shar members) with the rationale that it's requiring energy to maintain engagement of appropriate muscles.

As far as damage output, I think our actual damage output is ok. It's just that it's unfocused. I've suggested this for Shar before, but maybe some sort of precision ability that allows attacks to be aimed with a way higher frequency of success. A good brawler would be able to repeatedly hit the same target afterall.

Alternatively, heavy blows could apply to more than just punches. This would help to distinguish our brawling technique from more casual brawlers. Maybe a heavy version of each basic attack type could have a chance to appear? Brute force probably needs some work as well, especially once intermediate and advanced brawling combos are working as intended (since we'd lose 2 attacks in tactic offensive without much added damage).

I'd like to suggest dirty fighting instead of dirt kick again, also. Dirt kick relies on stealth for its off roll, so it's really not useful to us. We have other ways of breaking engagement that are easier (tumble, and just changing position)

Sweeps, grappling, and more stunning techniques incorporated into combos might make a huge difference. Disarm would also be something that would make us a lot more viable (I thought this was originally slated to be a guild ability if I'm remembering correctly). Overall, I think it's already a great very viable guild and I'd hate to see the sole reliance on the brawler's body thing go away.

For those who are new to the guild, it's slow going and difficult at first but brawling gets a lot more effective as you pick up abilities.

[Rias]

Ooooh oh! I have a sweep ability coded somewhere!

[Jirato]

Had a chance to get some feedback from one of my girlfriend's friends who does actual MMA fighting. He's been doing amateur fights for quite awhile but he's going professional later this year. Cool stuff! I can't wait to watch one of his fights.

It's a combination of things, I guess. No, I haven't really taken much damage in my fights thus far. But I've taken plenty in sparring and practice. It's largely an adrenaline thing. Adrenaline is an amazing thing. It makes it both so that any pain or damage I feel is minimized to the point of my not noticing it much, and what I do feel, the adrenaline helps me push through. It's also a combination of mental and physical toughness. My body and, even more importantly, my mind is used to pushing through pain and injury to keep performing. I've been training so long that my body is acclimated to a certain level of pain and abuse. It just takes it and works past it, because it is used to being made to do that.

The other part...and a much harder part...is mental toughness. Being tough in my mind. Choosing a mind over matter way of being. I can almost always tell my mind that the pain does not matter, that it is temporary, to just work through it and get past it and I will be fine. I can usually mentally coach myself through pain, remind myself that pain is pain but it does not mean I cannot function any longer. That is something that takes a lot of work, and constant reinforcement. The mental aspect of fighting can be very hard to overcome. The mind wants to be weak. It wants to be weak even when the body can be strong. The mind will break before the body does. But if you master your mind, and make your mind strong, then you can make your mind stronger than your body, and your body stronger with your mind.

...

A pain suppression trait would actually be pretty accurate. I mean it may be overdone or something the way it was configured, I don't know about all that...but a fighter, whether it's a cage fighter, or a monk like warrior...a hand to hand fighter tends to take the mentality of, I am going to get hit. I will do everything I possibly can to evade it, to block it, to dodge it, to do everything to not get hit. But I am GOING to get hit. It's inevitable. So you become accustomed to pain, conditioned to it, both in your body and in your mind. You don't let it effect you the way it would most people.

I think his idea of letting the body parts take full damage while the overall energy and such take less is a really good idea, actually. It's realistic. By that I mean...okay. In a fight, I can ignore and suppress pain really well. Well enough that I can work through pain and injury and keep fighting. But that doesn't mean that I'm not still taking damage while pressing on through the pain. I can resist the pain of getting my arm broken, or my shin bone cracked, for instance, and keep fighting...but that damage is still occurring, and my body will still suffer the effects. I may be able to keep fighting past the pain, and run off adrenaline, but my arm will still be broken, or my shin fractured, so I will still not be able to use that limb effectively.

This is kinda exactly what I had in mind, so I'm glad that he was able to back it up a bit. He talked a bit about both physical conditioning and mental conditioning. Consider the Pain Suppression ability to be the mental aspect of that. I understand that physical conditioning is a real thing too, as has been brought up by both Acarin and this person. I wouldn't mind bringing back the padding in a new ability to represent it but it'd be significantly less than the old system and only cover certain damage types (bludgeon, mostly). I'll have to go through the normal QC process with this and consult with Rias before anything gets done, but we'll toss the idea around a bit.

[xavier]

I took a few minutes out this morning after reading the second post on how brawlers are beat to exhaustion. I did a very simple test on the closest semi challenging opponent I could find so accept this information with as much weight as it bears.

not aiming on my brawler
9 rounds of combat

The corpse of an infested guard could be looted, or you could bury it.
His neck is lightly damaged.
His back is lightly damaged.
His chest is moderately damaged.
His abdomen is lightly damaged.
His right arm is moderately damaged.
His left arm is moderately damaged.
His right hand is lightly damaged.
His left hand is severely damaged.
His right leg is moderately damaged.
His left leg is badly damaged.
His left foot is scraped.
He is wearing a lamellar cuirass, a pair of leather gloves, some lamellar greaves and a pair of leather boots.

aiming for the chest
2 rounds of combat

The corpse of an infested guard could be looted, or you could bury it.
His chest is severely damaged.
He is wearing a lamellar cuirass, a pair of leather gloves, some lamellar greaves and a pair of leather boots.

I was not hit a single time during these two fights and tumbled most of the attacks. The first guard did flee the room before he died but was dealt with when he walked back in. I suggest if you are having issues taking down an opponent through damage on your brawler you should try aiming at their chest or abdomen, I did a longer test a while back aiming for various body parts. I can consistently rack up severe damage on the chest and abdomen without hitting other parts, legs are a little less accurate as well as back, aim seems to be less effective the smaller the target you are aiming at, I.E. right eye acted like I wasn't aiming at all.

[Acarin]

Another possibility for pain suppression would be ignoring roll reductions (to some extent) from wounds and functioning as if the body part is not wounded (or wounded less severely). This is largely mental as well, consistent with your friend's thoughts, and would be super cool!

[Acarin]

Not to beat a dead horse and with general abilities coming down the pipeline this might not be as important, but what about mitigate? This is a 50% damage reduction for unarmored utasa, correct? It's also completely non-magical in nature and the explanation is simply positioning oneself to avoid vital areas. I'm a bit curious as to why this is still an ability as it provides even greater armoring if pain suppression was considered too unrealistic to remain as it was.

[Kunren]

Not to beat a dead horse and with general abilities coming down the pipeline this might not be as important, but what about mitigate? This is a 50% damage reduction for unarmored utasa, correct? It's also completely non-magical in nature and the explanation is simply positioning oneself to avoid vital areas. I'm a bit curious as to why this is still an ability as it provides even greater armoring if pain suppression was considered too unrealistic to remain as it was.

I believe Rias has stated somewhere that he disliked mitigate. Correct me if I'm wrong definitely-not-Kent-secretly. Changes coming? maaaaybe.

[Acarin]

I'm fully aware that Rias doesn't like this ability (I've seen that too).

I'm wondering why it's still there or if it's an ability that could be implemented for brotherhood members until general abilities become available. There's been no development on armor or damage preventing abilities for fist members, so this may be a fast patch in the interim... since it's been considered realistic enough to still exist.

[Rias]

I'm not going to spread implementation of a mechanic I would rather didn't exist. Sorry.

A fast patch in the interim for Brofists who want to enjoy damage padding would be to put on armor. Just warn me beforehand, so I can get to my underground bunker in preparation for the world's end.

[Acarin]

You can stay out of your creepy doomsday bunker and won't have to deplete your supply of unicorn meat for now. Unless some rather specialized armor was implemented that does not impact improved dodge, is near weightless, acts like rigid leather+, looks like clothes, and generates it's own pleasant smell, I don't think we'll be doing the armor thing. I still think we do need a solution to this, whether it's the opportunity to negate more attacks, a damage reduction, or specialized guild armor...

[Kunren]

You can stay out of your creepy doomsday bunker and won't have to deplete your supply of unicorn meat for now. Unless some rather specialized armor was implemented that does not impact improved dodge, is near weightless, acts like rigid leather+, looks like clothes, and generates it's own pleasant smell, I don't think we'll be doing the armor thing. I still think we do need a solution to this, whether it's the opportunity to negate more attacks, a damage reduction, or specialized guild armor...

Brofists already too op. I'd kill for just blade slap, much less ten strikes or all the other goodies. Is there really a balance issue in negating damage for brofists? Id think tumble plus improved dodge plus the new version of pain suppression would be pretty good.