Sparring ideas?

[Jirato]

I've already started some discussion with this on our GM board, but I'm curious about the player's thoughts. I need to make some sort of sparring system. It would primarily be used for the two rooms in Brawler's Retreat that are designated sparring areas, but could potentially be utilized in other areas/tasks/events.

How do you, the players, envision something like this working? Do you feel there should be some mechanical assistance in place to accommodate a non-lethal brawl, or do you feel it should just be moderated by any characters involved? What do you feel the limitations should be and when a fight should be called?

The problem I'm seeing is that it's too easy to stun/knockdown/bleed an opponent in CLOK with the proper skill and abilities. A fight could be over in one or two rounds of combat easy, but at the same time I don't want this to turn into something from a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie (I totally watched Bloodsport over the weekend).

[Kent]

I've already started some discussion with this on our GM board, but I'm curious about the player's thoughts. I need to make some sort of sparring system. It would primarily be used for the two rooms in Brawler's Retreat that are designated sparring areas, but could potentially be utilized in other areas/tasks/events.

How do you, the players, envision something like this working? Do you feel there should be some mechanical assistance in place to accommodate a non-lethal brawl, or do you feel it should just be moderated by any characters involved? What do you feel the limitations should be and when a fight should be called?

The problem I'm seeing is that it's too easy to stun/knockdown/bleed an opponent in CLOK with the proper skill and abilities. A fight could be over in one or two rounds of combat easy, but at the same time I don't want this to turn into something from a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie (I totally watched Bloodsport over the weekend).

It seems to me with fists, if you keep punching someone they are going to drop unconscious but usually not lethally so, and unlike blade wounds, the wounds inflicted aren't normally going to bleed so bad as to cause 'death in minutes' as we currently have in game...you'd have to go out of your way to continue to pummel their unconscious body to induce death.

Overall, I would for one like to see a combat mode with an intention to incapacitate the opponent rather than slay. In brawling, this would be the natural first choice for combat mode.

Some kind of toggle to switch back and forth between 'lethal' mode and 'subdue' mode. For use with weapons, one would strike an opponent with the hilt of his dagger or the flat part of his sword blade. This would tie into future bounty tasks where the job is to bring the offender in to justice. I would also like to use it to show 'mercy' to opponents I don't really want to kill, for example, if for some compelling reason I needed to enter Stone Canyon and came up against a Hyra, I would like to knock him out get on with the reason I was in there rather than leaving behind a dead body. (Furthermore, I would like there to be a good chance it would turn him from a red mob into a yellow mob, but that's for another thread.)


Yes, I would like to have a mechanic to reflect this. Not as badly as I'd like all the prices in CLOK adjusted to make some semblance of a free market, but yes.

[jilliana]

I'm really digging this idea. I do like both sides of the matter.

On one hand, it would be great to go to an area in the game and be able to sparr without feeling like the person you're fighting will sparr with you with the intention to kill you. Not that that has happened as far as I'm aware.
There could be a mechanic that won't allow the people in the designated areas to not hit each other in vital areas such as the chest and eyes. Maybe even have it to where all people in these areas have any and all fancy brawling abilities stripped and their brawling skill drops to a certain level.

On the other hand, it was great seeing Zuki and Evelyn sparr yesterday because there was that element of danger. It was good to see them unleash their skills and abilities on each other.

As it stands though, I'm leaning towards having something CLOK-monitored because if we want to have an all out dirty brawl, we can go anywhere for that.

[xavier]

I really think that non-lethal combat spars really need to be mechanically backed up. I can for example spar with someone and unless tutor is on, get them to bleeding and/or unconscious in just a couple of rounds. This is full ability usage though. If I were to limit the number of strikes per combo it would take longer. I have however seriously taken things in the game out with so little time that I'm honestly not sure I could have typed stop/clear fast enough. I can't really tell you how this could be implemented best but some ideas come to mind of
1. when a player falls unconscious a peace flag is thrown up on the room, making it impossible to fight there. easiest way.
2. making a player toggle options for lethal and nonlethal that would automatically stop a fight when your target2864 falls unconscious. Assuming people actually use the target command for this, would probably make it relatively straight forward.
3. some other form of code that is much more specific and targetting thus more robust. I have no idea how to do something like this, heh, so no idea how difficult.

I really, really look forward to something like this though. Go Brofist!

[Acarin]

I do quite a bit of sparring on Zuki and it's not hard to hold back a bit and avoid killing someone. You just have to pay attention. That being said, I'd like to see rooms with a variety of qualities. Maybe a pit to fight it out to the death in (possibly with an occassional npc audience, might be a fun event), a brawling ring that "calls" the match right before someone takes a bad or severe wound (i.e. If a strike hits that would have caused a bad/severe wound, a whistle blows or a towel gets flung in, and the blow gets pulled before it hits). This one could be used for "tournament" styles events as well. Maybe another room for "shadow boxing"-like matches, where no contact is actually made but some sort of point system is implemented.

[Jirato]

The automatic save on fatal blows in "pit of death" scenarios thing is actually the easiest solution to implement. We already have code for the OOC battlegrounds that would just need to be slightly modified. I'm actually planning on doing it. However, I'd rather have that feature as a backup for accidental fatal blows and such rather than encouraging fights to the death, for Brawler's Retreat at least.

[TwistedAkai]

Have a 'sparring' toggle, that stops you from hitting a non-hostile target when they have a bleeding wound would be my suggestion. It should definitely be limited to friendly and neutral targets though. Hostile targets, being hostile, the MUD can probably assume you want to kill, and since most are NPCs, they won't wait while you turn off the flag.

It may also be a good idea to have it almost (but not entirely) negate eye and neck shots, and greatly reduce head shots, with the idea that you're aiming for "not the head", but your partner's defensive efforts may line him up for an off-chance shot.

Something like this would allow for fights where "first to draw significant blood" wins, and should all but eliminate lethal accidents, as long as everyone sparring communicates to ensure that everyone that wants to have the sparring toggle on has it on.

[Jirato]

I think what it basically comes down to is, CLOKs combat system is pretty deadly regardless of how you approach it.

[Elystole]

I think what it basically comes down to is, CLOKs combat system is pretty deadly regardless of how you approach it.

I'm nearly killed a couple of people while using wooden training weapons because of eye shots. The only way I've been able to spar effectively and not have to stop after every few rounds for healing is if we're in full plate.

[Alexander]

I would recommend wearing a sturdy helmet during training with even the flimsiest of weapons, if saftey and longevity of the sparring session is your primary concern. It seems obvious that this would be preferable over sparring without protection.

One concern brought up in the past that I cannot recall receiving an answer to was the possibility that well-crafted wooden weapons may actually do more damage, following the typical bonuses of well-crafted weapons, and thus in fact be less preferable for use than badly-made practice weapons, which I suspect would do less damage. You may want to consider finding a complete novice woodworker to make you some terrible wooden weapons and see if that makes a difference. For brawlers, consider trying badly-damaged gauntlets if your primary goal is to be able to attack at the least possible damage. I know from experience that a pair of battered gauntlets have impressively terrible damage output. (Please note that this is not a complaint.)

Apologies if the above is considered some sort of exploit. I thought it would at least be well to point out the possible flaw in the system so it can be considered.

[Acarin]

I would recommend wearing a sturdy helmet during training with even the flimsiest of weapons, if saftey and longevity of the sparring session is your primary concern. It seems obvious that this would be preferable over sparring without protection.

One concern brought up in the past that I cannot recall receiving an answer to was the possibility that well-crafted wooden weapons may actually do more damage, following the typical bonuses of well-crafted weapons, and thus in fact be less preferable for use than badly-made practice weapons, which I suspect would do less damage. You may want to consider finding a complete novice woodworker to make you some terrible wooden weapons and see if that makes a difference. For brawlers, consider trying badly-damaged gauntlets if your primary goal is to be able to attack at the least possible damage. I know from experience that a pair of battered gauntlets have impressively terrible damage output. (Please note that this is not a complaint.)

Apologies if the above is considered some sort of exploit. I thought it would at least be well to point out the possible flaw in the system so it can be considered.

Terribly crafted gauntlets considerably reduce brawling damage (while well-made increase) and I've used these before in sparring to prolong fights. Brotherhood of the Fist seems to shun any sort of armor/weapon at all, so I don't see it consistent with rp to spar with gauntlets on (sparring is a huge part of the rp of the guild in my understanding). It would be really cool to have a system implemented in the guild that allows non-lethal sparring.

One thought I had would be to allow the combat restraint ability to dramatically reduce brawling damage in addition to its current utility. Maybe this component alone would not result in complete loss of training points? As it stands now, it's really only for rp. I don't think it would imbalance the ability if this was done and it would allow fist members to have friendly spars with each other and encourage rp within the guild. The idea would be that well trained members have enough control to not put any real force behind their hits or even enough control to pull the strikes right before the point of impact.

[Drayla]

Why not make hand wraps or something that do 1 or 2 damage per hit, but have the same or increased damage to energy, and then somehow make the sparring location(s) special in that you cannot die in them? If you wanted to keep people from taking advantage of the rooms and running into them to save themselves from imminent death, make it so that you cannot enter with moderate or worse wounds. After all, I doubt you would be allowed to spar if you were already injured significantly.