Death about to become more dangerous

[Jirato]

As some of you may know, the death system in its current form is just a temporary measure from back when the game was in an early alpha stage of development. It's just a quick mechanical workaround to the actual death experience which has been in development since March of 2012. My goal is to hopefully get this fully released before the end of October.

Please note the following:

• The death experience is intended to be a (fairly easy) puzzle, so we're not going to be posting a complete guide to how it works or anything.
• The DEPART command, which was an entirely OOC workaround to the fact that we didn't have an actual IC death system implemented, is being removed.
• The location in which you return to after dying will no longer be based off of your character's faction but instead be the closest of several pre-set locations from where you died.
• Lastly, there will be five options when you die:
  1. Getting raised by an NPC (Same as before)
  2. Getting raised by a PC (Same as before)
  3. Reviving a finite number of times with certain aspects which must be worked off
  4. Reviving with losing all the items on your corpse
  5. Voluntary permadeath.

The above is left intentionally vague as we really want this to be an experience for players to figure out on their own. Do note, however, that it's forgiving enough that you will be able to use option #3 multiple times before having to figure out the entire death puzzle or resort to option #4. Once you figure out the specifics for the third option, you'll be able to create a larger buffer to allow for future deaths with that option. We'll also be monitoring player's progress closely, and if it looks like no one is figuring it out, we may make some subtle adjustments to it.

[Lun]

I'm super hyped about this - I've been hearing hints of it whenever you guys mention "Death mechanics will change" and it's finally here OH YEAH BABY

[Ardor]

Would it be possible to reduce the chance to get one-shot by random events (cave-in to the eye, gas leak to the eye, etc) with the harsher penalties?

[Rokal]

I am curious about what ardor is asking about, I still remember the day i started, the first thing that happened to me after i tried to chop a tree down was it falling on me and killing me instantly. Moments after starting.

Its really easy to die in a lot of ways, so ..yah. Will insta-death incidents become less common?

[Jirato]

Cave-ins and Gas-leaks are entirely avoidable, so I dont see any need to tweak that. I'll look into the tree falling stuff though.

[Jirato]

Mirazia worked her butt off to get a whole bunch of stuff ready for the new death system for an Octum release, and I totally dropped the ball and have been a lazy arse about this. Part of me is scared about player reactions to harsher penalties, part of me doesnt want to cope with the potential lore spoilers and/or opening up a bunch of new questions about super mystery stuff I'd rather not answer, and part of me just doesn't want to overhaul a bunch of super ancient and tangled up messy code.

It's a pretty big insult to all the efforts an awesome GM has put into getting everything ready by not doing this, so I'm going to try to get things gradually released starting this weekend. There may be a grace period where the new system is in place but no permanent penalties are incurred until I work out the system to pay off your debts.

[Kent]

My belief is that the game should implement goggles that reduce eye damage by 50%. Maybe they are busted by that shot, but as this game has at least a hint of steampunk, it should have goggles that actually work, especially against gas-leak burns.

[Kiyaani]

Bumping this thread to see if this is still the intended direction death is going towards considering yesterday's update (as noted in the devlog) doesn't seem to be indicated in this layout of the planned death mechanic.

The old depart penalty has been removed and replaced to be a 10% chance of a permanent 10% loss of skill points to each of your skills over 100. -- Jirato 15:59, 28 July 2019 (EDT)

This plan mentions that depart will be going away entirely, so I'm curious if this penalty is only a temporary measure. I also wonder if there is any way to bypass the penalty in cases where rescue is impossible either due to low population, unwillingness, or the location being too difficult (which lately is a rare situation, thankfully). If it's not possible to bypass then that's fine, but knowing that may help players decide how much risk they want to take for their characters depending on who else might be online to help if they die.

That may all sound a little OOC/meta, but this is still a game first and foremost, and games are meant to be enjoyed. That can mean different things for different people when it comes to how their characters die or are potentially aided after death. This kind of penalty may make players think twice about acting on or responding IC to events or rescues, or even engaging in basic skill training in challenging areas. I realize it's also only a 10% chance, but 10% permanent skill loss is a significant hit, so any additional information about this update would be greatly appreciated.

I know Jirato posted that he would be working on death this last weekend and I'm hoping this was part of that dev work. Is there any kind of tentative timeline on when the rest of the mechanics will be in - as in, is this nearing completion? I'm excited to see the new changes and look forward to hearing any updates as this progresses.

[Jirato]

Making players thinking twice before taking risks is exactly the goal of this change. Death shouldnt be taken lightly.

The current penalty will be evaluated and tweaked further as the new depart alternative is worked on. I'd like to see some sort of staged penalty where it might not be quite as severe the first time, but subsequent deaths without performing some sort of action could pose greater losses (up to the current penalty).

I'll admit, the current penalty was kind of hastily thrown in, as I witnessed a large group of players actively abusing it and needed to put an end to it. I've got some unfinished code to evaluate a chatacter's average and highest skills to tweak the penalty to less than 10%. What is in now should be considered the maximum.

I cant really give any sort of timeline, as CLOK is a living world of constantly shifting priorities. Right now I'm just stuck reacting to other's activities. I don't know when I'll have time to work on my own stuff again.

[Tangela]

Hi,

Sorry, I think I may be misunderstanding something. Is it a 10% chance of reducing skills over 100 by 10% *only* if you die and then intentionally depart, or is the possibility there just on death itself, whether or not anything else is done?

[Noctere]

The above change has been modified with the release of the new death system. As a GM team we are committed to keeping the details of the new changes as something not disclosed to the public and would ask that others please not share such information in an out of character way. However I will say, as stated above, that the previous change was "evaluated and tweaked" and you should find it less severe in some ways and a little more in others.

[Maeriwyn]

I have to say I was pretty hyped at first and I swear I heard there would be some sort of "puzzle" to solve when you died...

No puzzles were to be found, unfortunately. Just vague ambiguity wondering what actually will happen to your character should you interact with a NPC three times.

To me, while this change is... something, and probably slightly better than the old way, it just wasn't what I was expecting. It seems strange otherworldly beings with unknown agendas are what drive the resurrection process for the most part (aside from PCs intervening), and the final death isn't some sort of unknown random factor either but a deliberate choice.

Given the sad mental state my character is in, the next time, and I'm sure there will certainly be a next time, she may just end it for good. It's probably what she reasons is for the best anyway.

[Jirato]

Sorry if you felt mislead. Puzzle is more in the sense that we're not going to hold your hand and tell you exactly where and how to pay off your debts, not puzzle in the sense that you must solve these riddles etc to get out of death.

I dont feel like I ever hinted at random permadeath, that would be terrible. Most people would probably quit playing. Permadeath was always designed to be an option thing.

I don't really feel like I understand the nature of your other complaints... Sorry if it makes you feel sad and that you need to quit CLOK over it.

[Maina]

To be honest, the "Debt" option may need tweaking of some kind.

I took it once, got some vague threats about what would happen if I didn't pay my debt off before dying again...

Then I died again and did it all over again with no mention of prior debts.

I'm not sure if this is a bug, or if I 'accidentally' paid them off without realizing it. It might be broken or a little too obtuse, as it currently stands.

Unlike Maeriwyn, I do find this a massive improvement over the previous system, however.

[Jirato]

Itll be very obvious if you pay it off, wont be able to just accidentally do it... Maybe I should just write a detailed guide for it if people are struggling with it.

[Maeriwyn]

It's not that anyone ever hinted there would be random permadeath, except perhaps in the lore of the setting when people had done some gruesome experiments on the undying. BUT, my initial perception was that death was still some kind of nebulous thing, and one couldn't really control if they came back to life or not. If you recall when I sent you my character's backstory, being undying was quite a distressing revelation for her and her tribe, and she purposely died several times, only to keep coming back...

I dunno, I guess I just envisioned a massive murky maze, incomprehensible puzzles to solve, maybe chased around by horrible eldritch monsters, but if you did manage to solve those puzzles, you'd wind up somehow finding the means to recreate your body or something... And the better you succeeded, the less exp you lost, or you even got to keep your belongings.

Well I guess it's not really the death system that's the issue though. Everyone probably thinks it's fine. It's probably just an issue with my character. She's so suicidal and pretty much unplayable. I'd love to talk to someone about it, but I don't think we'll get anywhere. It might be best if I just made a completely different character.

[Alila]

Hi,
Sorry :(
Your character concept is sad and beautiful, but Clok's wilderness captures the element of untamed and sprawling very well. It is simply very difficult to find someone who does not use mail or the esp and--maybe if Maeriwyn were around more often people would learn where to look for her, but it is simply the way the world works, perhaps by design. If it helps, every interaction with Maeriwyn has been absolutely fantastic, and you are both an amazing roleplayer and a great person for handling my slownesses so gracefully. If you continue to play Maeriwyn, surely someone will find you or you will find someone eventually, do not lose faith; if you decide to leave Clok, then take care, and you will be missed; otherwise, I will be super excited to meet your new character! ;) Either way, thank you.
-Alila

[Jirato]

It's a balance of game versus lore. You are correct that undying-ness is never a guarantee and any death you suffer could be your last. But, game-wise, I cannot really enforce that without majorly upsetting players.

I cant go deep into the lore details behind what you see and experience in the death area without spoiling a lot of background/behind the scenes stuff.

It has been said people with near death experiences, after resuscitation, have told stories of visions of the same pyramid which you see in the new death area. Thats why the pyramid has always been considered a symbol of death or the afterlife by some. It can be assumed that the non-undying people are drawn straight into this pyramid. They dont have choice or control, while your undying player chatacter does.

Lore wise, you could be sucked into the pyramid at any time while dead. But, again, just not gonna force that on a player for the sake of it's a game and I'm not gonna force people to quit.

[Rias]

/risefromthesands

Fun fact: Some may recall that one of the charmseeking (trick-or-treating) items you can get at Octum is a tiny iron pyramid. This has been a thing since the very first CLOK Octum in days of yore!

/descendintothesands

[artus]

You folks just make me want to autorevive myself on purpose just so I can work that puzzle out. It's a thrill...As to playing a suicidal character, you can just play it off as her being dead all of a sudden. It's player's choice after all, not character's. You choose for her to die but she doesn't have to choose for herself to die, righty righty?:)

[Maeriwyn]

Thank you Alila, it really means a lot.

As for permadeath, it's not that I want it as a random occurrence to happen to people. It's rather... I think, maybe it shouldn't be possible to choose it in character. I thought the character always comes back, whether they want to or not, eventually. Until when randomly they don't. When they don't would be decided by the player and GMs. Not through IC actions. If that makes sense.

[merin]

I don't know if a full out guide is necessary, but a less-obscure hint would be helpful. I can't die again. he's like "i told you to pay your debts," and I have no idea where to look.

[Jirato]

I was worried about that... Has anyone actually figured out where to pay yet? The fact that I've asked people not to talk about it, means I dont even know if anyone has successfully done it or not. I didnt set up any GM logs for it.

You're looking for a pyramid symbol. It'll be obscure (likely on one of the the description items you can LOOK at in a room description, not the room description itself).

[Delve]

This is some illuminati-level stuff right here...
You have to stand on top of the town hall in Shadgard at 12:15 and you'll see a shadow in the shape of a figure pointing.
Follow the direction it's pointing 63 steps until you find a tiny pyramid symbol on a loose brick sticking out of the furnace.
Remove the brick and place your riln payment into the payment crucible.
Replace the brick and pump the bellows until your riln ingot receipt pops out.

[Jirato]

I just looked at the command logs, and it looks like only two people have figured it out. I know a lot more than two people have died, so, a little more hints. They are all interior rooms, there's one in each major town and also one accessible from the wilderness.