Infirmary Healing

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:51 pm

[quote=Lae][quote=Acarin]

Also Lae, this is not just a personal issue but one that I'm sure impacts others since there are a few who have this same problem.

[/quote]

When they post here I'll believe it.[/quote]

If my condition wasn't widely known, I probably wouldn't have posted about this topic. I expect that most do not care to reveal that type of information in a public forum.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:55 pm

Okay, well we'll figure out who your super secret friends are when they bemoan the fact that they don't have bandages. Check. However, like you, they put themselves in a situation and made an RP choice. It's CLOK, hard mode, and if you didn't want difficulty you could have done things differently.

Maybe I should get some super special Church healing bandages because I don't antagonize and murder people.

Yep, I want to be a special snowflake too.

Nootau · Post by **Nootau** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:57 pm

As for the rarity of herbalists for hire, they were mostly neglected as the city healer was always a more convenient option. With this change, there will be more herbalists as it will be in higher demand so they can charge more for herbs then what they once would of gotten away with.

(If you cannot or will not, for IC reasons, negotiate with a large percentage of the player base, then it is a result of a previous choice.)

[-Edit-]
If you would like to know, I have bought several dozen herbs from characters within the last two months before this change. There are characters who will collect the resources needed. If all else fails, stalk those who have bandages and steal them if you are desperate for a stock.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:00 pm

[quote=Lae]Also, and you're going to have to forgive me for digressing, but nobody currently takes advantage of Thaumaturgy as a means to get themselves healed, so you are in no way behind and bereft and alone Acarin. Everyone is in the same boat as you with the bandages.

Buy them off of Kiyaani. I make them for her by the dozen, she asks nicely.[/quote]

They have the option of using thaumaturgy and many do, regardless of whether they are asking you or not.

I already stated why I'm not going to buy or make bandages as this is not a feasible solution (previously outlined). Please read my previous post more carefully before you make further suggestions. Your comments fall loosely into list items ii and iii in that same post.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:03 pm

And as was also stated there is NO good reason why making or purchasing bandages is not a feasible option. Poultices are not impossible to make, nor are the herbs hard to find.

Making special mechanics because a player is too lazy to search out the resources that they need is laughable at best.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:05 pm

[quote=Acarin]

They have the option of using thaumaturgy and many do, regardless of whether they are asking you or not.
[/quote]

You don't play a lot, so let me educate you. People might occasionally ask for thaumaturgic healing but 90 percent of this mud automatically heads to the infirmary when they're injured. Just because you don't have the option to use thaumaturgy doesn't mean that you deserve or need another method to be healed.

Kiyaani · Post by **Kiyaani** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:05 pm

How about we all simmer down and appreciate the fact that this makes sense for RP reasons. Infirmaries aren't going to heal you for free. This isn't the Salvation Army or Red Cross. The time it takes for herbalist bandages isn't bad at all - on par with previous RT. I really don't see a problem here. If you want to have more than one way to heal yourself please make a detailed post suggesting something that can be implemented and I'm sure the GMs will review it. I for one, like this change.

Marauder · Post by **Marauder** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:08 pm

Wow, Lae. Did you throw Acarin into the sun to cause that level of burn?

I have to side with her on this one, because of the mere fact that buying bandages and finding herbs REALLY ISN'T that big of a deal. Especially with Druids running around cultivating them.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:10 pm

[quote=Lae]Okay, well we'll figure out who your super secret friends are when they bemoan the fact that they don't have bandages. Check. However, like you, they put themselves in a situation and made an RP choice. It's CLOK, hard mode, and if you didn't want difficulty you could have done things differently.

Maybe I should get some super special Church healing bandages because I don't antagonize and murder people.

Yep, I want to be a special snowflake too.[/quote]

You do have super special church healing bandages. It's called thaumaturgy and you use it on yourself constantly so this change has no impact on you other than driving up the price of your bandages and making your skills more desirable. I think you've gotten enough Lae.

Again, because you apparently missed that, I DID NOT MAKE THE CHOICE YOU CLAIM. I hope you managed to catch it this time.

There's a huge difference between difficulty and being forced to sit around. I know you're used to sitting around, but not everyone is.

If you have a grudge against me for murdering people, then that's your own issue. I do it within the confines of policy and because it suits the way my character has developed.

Marauder · Post by **Marauder** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:12 pm

If you have a grudge against me for murdering people, then that's your own issue. I do it within the confines of policy and because it suits the way my character has developed.

I'm going to be blatant about this, since you've basically just said you don't break rules.

Aren't you an assassin? I've been told several times that you have Cryomancy. Assassins do not learn Cryomancy, nor should they ever. They're the martial side of Sorcerers, as far as I've seen.

Nootau · Post by **Nootau** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:13 pm

[quote=Acarin]I already stated why I'm not going to buy or make bandages as this is not a feasible solution (previously outlined). [/quote]Saying you 'can't' do something because is it different that what you normally do is a misuse of the word. You should use 'won't' rather than 'can't'. Can you define what a 'feasible solution' could be? Having the option to buy a small box of four high quality bandages for five-hundred riln?

[quote=Acarin]Please read my previous post more carefully before you make further suggestions. Your comments fall loosely into list items ii and iii in that same post.[/quote]Seeing as any disagreement will fall under i, ii or iii, what difference does it make? If you do not with to take the alternate paths then so be it. I posted my tale in part for you but also for anyone who agreed with your post who might gain a second opinion when they read my post.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:15 pm

You obviously haven't been listening either Acarin because this whole time I've been saying the word *CHOICE*. Nobody forced you to antagonize and murder more than half the mud. You did that. Just because someone didn't come up to you and say "So hey, you're a real jerk and we think we're gonna make some consequence to that" doesn't mean that you didn't have a choice.

Yes I have thaumaturgy, but as you recall for a few months I wasn't able to use that ability. I didn't whine, moan and complain and I used the opportunity to increase my herbalism skills so I could make bandages for myself and other people.

So you can't hunt because of the bandage situation? RP instead.

The only grudge I currently have against you is that I dislike seeing someone come onto the boards, read a post and automatically make assumptions about a system. COME IN. TRY IT OUT. THEN post constructive feedback on things that would make sense for change or tweaking. Or not, just come here and automatically assume that it's all about YOU.

Post by **Rias** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:27 pm

We're hoping this change creates demand both for thaumaturgic healing and for people who have spent time working on herbalism and poultices, and will encourage people to make and trade or otherwise provide these poultices.

The people I've seen trading bandages haven't actually been trading them, but giving them away. I wouldn't blame anyone for charging money for them, though. I can understand why some people will choose not to provide certain other people with bandages, so it might be in one's best interests to try and maintain favorable relations with at least one person who can make them. If you want to be able to go it alone and be independent instead of worrying about maintaining relationships, you're free to take up herbalism and first aid yourself. I understand that you don't want to do that, but that doesn't mean you can't and must therefore be provided with an alternate means. Your CLOK life will be harder if you refuse to depend on other people for anything.

As far as container space concerns, bandages weigh .02. Unless you're finding it necessary to carry multiple hundreds around on your person at all times, it shouldn't be a concern.

As far as not selling their high-quality poultices, there's a lot of demand and not much supply in a dangerous place such as the Lost Lands, so they need to stretch their herbs thin on weaker poultices to supply their entire accident-prone town.

Let's see how these changes go. I'm not against making further considerations, but I'd like to see how this works out, first.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:50 pm

[quote=Lemuel] When I asked around in-game for a poultice-selling player, I was told that only Lae could produce them, and she would not sell them to me for IC reasons.

[/quote]

I have not, nor will I ever, sell bandages. People tip me but I generally return the tips if I can. If you want an ungodly amount then you have to produce some of the herbs. That's not difficult.

I told you what you would need to do for me to start giving you bandages again. You could still do that!

[quote=Lemuel]
I imagine Acarin is in the same IC boat as far as that goes.
[/quote]

You imagine wrong. Lae has no reason not to give Acarin bandages, he simply won't ask.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:00 pm

[quote=Lae]You obviously haven't been listening either Acarin because this whole time I've been saying the word *CHOICE*. Nobody forced you to antagonize and murder more than half the mud. You did that. Just because someone didn't come up to you and say "So hey, you're a real jerk and we think we're gonna make some consequence to that" doesn't mean that you didn't have a choice.[/quote]

If you murdered half the mud, you would not become tainted. You'd simply lose your light. Getting a nether taint does not naturally follow murdering people and I would doubt if this is the justification used for making a character tainted as it does not even fit into the lore of the game. I was tainted because there was a change made and someone decided that they thought I would enjoy it, and that it fit my character. At least that is what I was told. So no. I did not have a choice. If this was a penalty for being a "real jerk" then there's a different issue entirely, but I doubt this is the case.

[quote=Lae]Yes I have thaumaturgy, but as you recall for a few months I wasn't able to use that ability. I didn't whine, moan and complain and I used the opportunity to increase my herbalism skills so I could make bandages for myself and other people. [/quote]

Whether people choose to utilize it or not, they have a choice to receive thaum healing. I don't, and neither does any tainted character. I don't particularly think your rp situation or your personal choices are relevant to the discussion, nor are they constructive.

[quote=Lae]So you can't hunt because of the bandage situation? RP instead.[/quote]
I can still hunt just as well as I could before. This is not an issue. I just have to sit around longer now between them.

[quote=Lae]The only grudge I currently have against you is that I dislike seeing someone come onto the boards, read a post and automatically make assumptions about a system. COME IN. TRY IT OUT. THEN post constructive feedback on things that would make sense for change or tweaking. Or not, just come here and automatically assume that it's all about YOU.[/quote]
I tested it. I logged in and had my wounds healed. Are months of testing required to form an opinion for a simple system? I've made my own poultices in the past, they heal slowly, and this was not quicker. My feedback was constructive and informed: I asked if an alternative could be made available and have felt that one is needed for a long time. This was simply a prompt for me to post about it.

I was told to just use bandages and asked why I can't just use them. Next time I'll make up an answer, but availability is an issue whether you see it or not. You are the only real supplier of bandages and I'm not going to waste even more time grinding herbalism. The truth is, anyone CAN sit there and grind herbalism long enough to make good bandages. Just because you enjoy it doesn't mean I do. It's a game. Again, I play for fun. When it ceases to be fun for me I stop playing until I think it will be fun again. Doing this for routine healing will not be fun. I would be out for 2 hours to make enough bandages to supply one or two full hunting trips and this would defeat the purpose of making them by using up even more time.

Nootau · Post by **Nootau** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:07 pm

Acarin, are you saying that they turned you Tainted without asking you or giving you a choice in the matter, just bam! 'Tanited', deal with it? I am asking to make sure I read your post correctly.

Also, has anyone ever been tainted as a whole without their consent?

Makkah · Post by **Makkah** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:11 pm

I really can see Acarin's issue here. Especially with new players. Would totally throw a new person off if they chose to start in Corvus and realized they have no actual healing potential there other than a lengthy NPC process... EVERY HUNT. We all know lots of MUD players tend to want to play the "evil" role, and this seems quite the diversion.

Nootau · Post by **Nootau** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:14 pm

Seeing as Corvus left the Claw of Shar and as far as I knew, never had standing orders to attack the Order.. why can't a Claw of Shar request Thaurmatic healing?

[-Edit-]
Claw of Shar do not seem to be as much 'evil' as they are just 'assassins' for hire with bad relations with Shadgard.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:15 pm

[quote=Rias]We're hoping this change creates demand both for thaumaturgic healing and for people who have spent time working on herbalism and poultices, and will encourage people to make and trade or otherwise provide these poultices.[/quote]

I understand this, but at times it seems that everyone has to be penalized in some way to provide an advantage to a few. One major example of this is weapon/armor breakage/repair. This likely will increase the demand for thaumaturgy, a system which some cannot gain benefit from (the point of my first post).

[quote=Rias]The people I've seen trading bandages haven't actually been trading them, but giving them away. I wouldn't blame anyone for charging money for them, though. I can understand why some people will choose not to provide certain other people with bandages, so it might be in one's best interests to try and maintain favorable relations with at least one person who can make them. If you want to be able to go it alone and be independent instead of worrying about maintaining relationships, you're free to take up herbalism and first aid yourself. I understand that you don't want to do that, but that doesn't mean you can't and must therefore be provided with an alternate means. Your CLOK life will be harder if you refuse to depend on other people for anything.[/quote]

To get someone to supply me with a few hundred bandages, I'd likely have to pay quite a bit. I'm not asking for an alternative because I can't use herbalism. I'm asking for one because the superior means of receiving healing is not an option for myself and several others. I *can't* receive thaumaturgic healing. Herbalism does not change this.

[quote=Rias]As far as container space concerns, bandages weigh .02. Unless you're finding it necessary to carry multiple hundreds around on your person at all times, it shouldn't be a concern.[/quote]
This would be a real possibility if I used them. You should see how many rations I generally carry.

[quote=Rias]As far as not selling their high-quality poultices, there's a lot of demand and not much supply in a dangerous place such as the Lost Lands, so they need to stretch their herbs thin on weaker poultices to supply their entire accident-prone town.[/quote]
I was under the impression that some of the herbs used in the better poultices are not the same as those in the weaker poultices. If this is the case, it would not be a matter of stretching them out. If you think that this is a good rate of healing, that's fine. I don't see how it compromises the game in any way to allow people to heal a bit more quicker for an extra fee though.

[quote=Rias]Let's see how these changes go. I'm not against making further considerations, but I'd like to see how this works out, first.[/quote]
Ok.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:16 pm

[quote=Nootau]Acarin, are you saying that they turned you Tainted without asking you or giving you a choice in the matter, just bam! 'Tanited', deal with it? I am asking to make sure I read your post correctly.

Also, has anyone ever been tainted as a whole without their consent?[/quote]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Nootau · Post by **Nootau** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:23 pm

[quote=Acarin][quote=Nootau]Acarin, are you saying that they turned you Tainted without asking you or giving you a choice in the matter, just bam! 'Tanited', deal with it? I am asking to make sure I read your post correctly.

Also, has anyone ever been tainted as a whole without their consent?[/quote]

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.[/quote]

That then is interesting. I have quite a few questions to ask the GMs at the next Skype community meeting.

Post by **Rias** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:01 pm

[quote=Nootau]
That then is interesting. I have quite a few questions to ask the GMs at the next Skype community meeting.[/quote]

You're free to ask here. Since I at least know the general subject, I'll give a brief response as a primer:

Tainting does not require consent. People can ask and seek to be tainted on purpose, but consent is not required, just as we don't ask someone if it's okay with them before we take away their ability to channel thaumaturgy, or if their actions spark a series of unfortunate events that they didn't intend, or before we arrest them and take their things, or before they die from a fight they didn't intend to start.

I can't stress enough that there are consequences to actions in this game, and they're not always going to be what you like. You're not always going to know what the consequences are going to be. This game is firstly about roleplaying, and a big part of that is how you respond to the situations you find yourself in. I'm sorry if something happens to your character that you don't like, but we always have reasons based in established game lore. We don't sit there and say "hey watch this guys, I'm gonna taint Acarin just for fun, it'll be a real hoot". The process was a long one that was based on multiple events and observed character choices and actions.

Acarin isn't the only one to suffer the effects of involuntary tainting, though he's certainly the most noticeable and well-known.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:29 am

[quote=Makkah]I really can see Acarin's issue here. Especially with new players. Would totally throw a new person off if they chose to start in Corvus and realized they have no actual healing potential there other than a lengthy NPC process... EVERY HUNT. We all know lots of MUD players tend to want to play the "evil" role, and this seems quite the diversion.[/quote]

Just because you start at Corvus doesn't mean that you don't have any other healing potential. Honestly, I heal more people from Corvus than I do from any other town, because they are the people who ask when they see me.

I don't think that this change picks on any one town in particular.

Kenionatus · Post by **Kenionatus** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:35 am

Thank you, Devs. The change gave me the motivation to try poultices. Let's look if I can get rich with it.

Lysse · Post by **Lysse** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:33 am

I'd also like to say thank you to the Devs for this change. I personally prefer it to the old system as well so far. I feel like the price and wait time are more than fair, as is the time it takes for the wounds to heal with the poultices.

I also like the fact that people who wish to pursue herbalism and poultice making are given incentive to do so now. The only potential kink I can see with the new system is that there still seems to be a few people that only forage out "valuable" herbs and leave behind cooking herbs, which means it takes more work than normal to gain herbs. Other than that, I quite enjoy it.