The Mine

[Gad]

You are part of the problem, Gad.

Ahhh, I see. An interesting statement. Fair enough, Skjotur. I'll sit back and quietly observe.

[Vitello]

Please never do something like this again.

[Skjotur]

Please never do something like this again.

I have the opposite request. Please do things like this more often. Make the world a dynamic living one instead of a static dead one. It can target myself and the Dunwyr if the GMs are worried other people will be too hurt and offended by change. I won't mind being more involved while other people just do the same old thing all the time without any change or setback. All the losses suffered by me and the Dunwyr and our allies have made the game experience interesting and are a big part of why I keep coming back. We've lost our main outpost, a smaller outpost, access to a major outpost, a minor outpost, and a few other rare places we could get supplies and services without being attacked on sight. Some of those took a lot more investment than buying a deed to a mine, and were worth far more. Losing every now and then gives you a reason to muster your will and keep fighting. Or for some people, it's a reason to give up.

[sona]

On dynamics, it's a tough call. I'm all for it, but if we're going for Dynamics, please allow, if not facilitate dynamic growth that makes sense even if it's not what we want. ex: building, Sona loved the idea of clearing, creating, building, improving, steam works, engineering, arcane, spiritual, and other sorts of design. I pulled away from the play because futile play is pretty unrewarding. It's most rewarding to play a combat oriented character at that point which is semi sad, but that's ok. We do what we can. I just hate the dynamics of losing stuff, but lacking an ability to create locations, etc.

sub-note: Maybe I just need to start submitting builder designs for random stuff when the mood strikes me.

[Vitello]

I suppose a better way to say it would be please never handle a situation in this way again.

Loosing is easier to deal with if you know there is a possibility of loosing. As a Corvite I know and run risks, as a Dunwyr there are obvious risks. If I was Gad I would have lost it to; this coming out of the blue. The other mine holders have a warning and can brace themselves for it, heck they can even think of ideas to pose to the GMs about how their mine is to be destroyed that could build background.

Important event considerations;
Most players don't realize they could loose.
9 out of 10 times if there is a choice to fight muders will fight.
If it's irreplaceable there is a massive probability they're going to get upset.

[Skjotur]

Loosing is easier to deal with if you know there is a possibility of loosing. As a Corvite I know and run risks, as a Dunwyr there are obvious risks.

Always assume there's a possibility of losing. To think otherwise is sheer arrogance and entitlement. Should people think they're entitled to have and hold everything they claim as their own forever just because they're not from Corvus or a Dunwyr? Does being a member of Shadgard mean nothing bad can ever happen to you, even outside that town? That's some perk.

This didn't come out of the blue. RP things happened to cause it. The GMs said they want to get rid of these mines anyway, so they could have just had it collapse one day and be gone and blame it on an earthquake or something. Instead they had some story happen that ended up in the loss of the mine. If they just removed it one day without saying anything, that would be out of the blue. This was not.

Important event considerations;
Most players don't realize they could loose.
9 out of 10 times if there is a choice to fight muders will fight.
If it's irreplaceable there is a massive probability they're going to get upset.

I don't think naivete should be an excuse to say people shouldn't lose in conflicts or lose their things. Maybe a public service announcement when people log in would help. "Welcome to CLOK. Please know that you won't win every situation you find yourself in in this game, and sometimes you can lose nice things due to forces outside your control. Keep calm and fight on."

[Dorn]

I tend to find that is the general assumption of people who feel like they're playing most muds. They assume that they'll always be allowed to win, some way or another. It's why I tend to think most people shouldn't play antagonistic characters.

[Vitello]

I don't think naivete should be an excuse to say people shouldn't lose in conflicts or lose their things.

I'm not saying people shouldn't loose their things. Just put heavy forethought into rendering a loss and how to handle before, during, and after giving that loss.

[Teek]

I think the answer is simple, and the need for argument is unnecessary. CLOK is a game. Why do people play? To have fun. Maybe not EVERYONE, but I think the majority play to have fun, enjoy themselves, etc. MOST people I know do not find it fun to lose. I myself like the idea of Dunwyr, but lets be blunt. If your playing a Dunwyr, odds are you have Roleplayed for awhile, and you like punishment. I suspect they are the type of player who would also enjoy dark souls. That being said, most people are not like that, or have that level of peaceful Zen to be able to handle big personal losses to a character they have invested time in. A Dunwyr loosing a place to craft, or purchase things, an outpost, etc is much different then Bob from Shadgard loosing a house. Dunwyr know exactly what they signed up for. Corvites know what they signed up for. I agree with Dorn that new players should avoid or shy away from morally "Evil" characters. Ignorance in that case is not bliss, and I can say that with experience

I'm not saying things should be so unrealistic and that players should always win, but I think it's fair to say that players would rather win then loose. I point as an example the event where the infested migrated to Emleth that lead to a group of players being defeated. Was it realistic? Sure. Were players happy? I don't think so. Folks were pretty blue. And I think it is unrealistic to expect everyone to conform to the standard of "Always be prepared to loose anything and everything". I myself purposely avoid games with that kind of mindset, I.E EVE and the "H.T.F.U" mentality or Dark Souls with their "Git Gud" mentality. I play to have fun. I'm sure others do as well. Personal loss is not fun. Challenges? Those are fun. Losses? Not fun.

I think the mine event was a well designed event for what it was and how it was executed. I think that, RP wise, Gad the character would not care about the mine going down. But, we can't always predict how players will respond, even if they are locked into certain responses with their character. I think it also depends on time played. An example, Teek had an event where he lost 25k. At the time, I was quite upset. I never had 25k that I made myself the entire time I played. It represented a solid 6-7 hours of work for my character and myself. The RP event that lead to the loss was great and fun...but a loss is a loss. Now, I can handle a loss of that size and take it on a chin. I recently helped a character move from a large house to a smaller house, and I felt so bad for the player. He took it with the patience of a saint, while I was thinking to myself how bad I would feel if I just up and lost my house, which I know to be a risk.

I guess in the end I can't say if this event lead to a positive outcome for most folks. Sadly, I did notice a few players who were often on no longer played after the event, and I find that kind of result speaks for itself. It could be argued by some that maybe it's better for them to go, or that we did not need those kinds of players in the first place...But, I'm a nice guy. I like playing with people and spreading the RP around when I can.

Hope you guys get the jist of this wall of text.

[Skjotur]

And I think it is unrealistic to expect everyone to conform to the standard of "Always be prepared to loose anything and everything".

Either you accept the possibility that you might lose sometime, or you don't. I don't think anyone should be constantly thrown under the bus unless they are landing themselves in all the trouble themselves by their own actions. But nobody should go into any situation thinking they should be immune from any loss and guaranteed a win, like they've suffered their loss quota and now they are guaranteed to win. That's unrealistic.

[Vitello]

But nobody should go into any situation thinking they should be immune from any loss and guaranteed a win, like they've suffered their loss quota and now they are guaranteed to win. That's unrealistic.

That's a bit of an exaggeration compared to Teek's post. I think you over analyze, or have a potent imagination for the direction things could go.