Since I have no access to the appropriate board

[Acarin]

I'm not entirely clear why dirty fighting is based on stealth and defense is highly based on perception. This is straight brawling (although dirty brawling) but no stealth is involved in getting an attack through.

I have an issue with this because it's near impossible to defend against in melee combat if you don't train perception and locks you into rt if they keep using it due to the 1 second required to stand.

These aren't stealth attacks. They're punches, stomps, etc. just like any other brawler maneuvers. Can this be evaluated again? I know that this is a really old ability but it could use some updates...

I could see stealth for dirtkick, just not the others.

Posting here because I can't do it on the invisible board.

[Sneaky]

It is based on brawling melee, and stealth. The defense is determined by melee and perception, if I'm wrong someone please correct me. while you can lock someone into it easily enough, to do so would lock the attacker into it as well, any of them have cool downs as well, such as footstomp and kidney shot, although if it does not stun you can do them again until they are successful, as is the case when you have pain suppression. I think they're dirty and cheap tricks that give a high advantage towards the aggresser, but that's also what they're intended for. It takes a lot of time and effort to raise stealth, I'd say far harder than raising perception now honestly. I don't think they should be recalculated to something else, if they are however, I'd say it be evened out between the additives, 1/3 melee, 1/3 brawling, and 1/3 stealth. Just my thoughts on the matter, rias has the ultimate say on this, and it'll be up to him.

[Rias]

The dirty tricks rely partially on stealth (therefore defense is partially perception) because the attacker is relying on masking/concealing the dirty trick they're pulling in order to catch the opponent off-guard.

We don't want it to be possible to stun-lock or roundtime-lock via repeatedly doing the same thing over and over, so we'll look into that aspect.

[Acarin]

Thanks for looking into the rt lock issue, Rias. I just experienced it: 5 seconds of stun, followed by 1 second to stand (allowing another attack before you can move, etc). I assume dirty tricks have a 5 second rt?

Defense right now is primarily perception and maybe 25% melee or dodge. How about making it based on dodge + melee instead?

Concealing a brawling attack is not something that relies on "stealth." I'm not entirely understanding how that would work in close quarters combat. If they're distracting us to get the shot in, the messaging doesn't reflect that. Even if they were holding a hand in front of the face, or using a similar maneuver, in the end they're still brawling and these are commonly used techniques which do not, by any means, require stealth. When I'm fighting someone, I know if they're stomping at me or trying to knee me in the junk. It's obvious and I don't have to be perceptive to block it, just quick.

My big issue with this is that a specialized brawler cannot defeat a thief in unarmed combat because they are locked into rt the entire time and apparently can't see the attacks coming. This seems somewhat ridiculous to me.

Can I suggest that if this remains a stealth attack, it causes a paranoia effect as well? Once I get hit in the groin once, I would certainly be looking out for it the next time and not let it happen again.

[Jaster]

How is 5 second stun followed by 1 second to stand a rt lock? That's no different than taking a heavy hit to a leg and being knocked down. So you must have damage to a leg, right?

As far as I know, the only way to "rt lock" with dirty tricks is to use each one in succession, which also keeps the thief from attacking normally as they are also "locked" in their roundtime. And that only works to a point because, as Sneaky said, the majority of dirty tricks have a cool-down where they cannot be used again for a while or are less effective(I.e.will not cause roundtime to the target). The benefit of dirty tricks is that they clear your engagement and let you escape combat entirely (most easily with one or few opponents). With the exception of several dirty tricks with additional effects (decreased perception, knocking to ground, high energy loss) their benefit beyond that are pretty negligible.

[Rias]

Rather than a "nerf the other guy's abilities because I should be able to beat them", how about a "buff me so I can beat the other guy?" I think Brofist would be super awesome if they had the ability to auto-incorporate some special moves into normal attacks like Thieves can (and this could be said for several guilds, really).

As others have said, all dirty tricks either have a cooldown during which they can't be used on the same target again, or have increasingly reduced results during the cooldown to prevent silliness like stun-locking. If you get hit by seveveral different stunning moves in a row, I consider that an acceptable 'stun lock' which has a finite length of effectiveness, and again as was stated by others, the person doing that is effectively "locking" themselves in their own roundtime by performing all the moves.

The kind of "stealth" being invoked here is that of people who can be talking to you face to face and robbing you blind without your having a clue. If they can be focusing your attention on themself yet be reaching into your coat pocket to steal your coin purse without you knowing, they can be using similar "stealth" and misdirection to more effectively nail you with sneaky attacks. I'm sure it's harder to pull that stuff off in combat situations, and that's why the combat skills of the defender are taken into account.

[Acarin]

My issue was that I got locked into rt for quite a while due to dirty tactics. When this sort of thing happened with cthroat a while back it was nerfed immediately. Since this is a guild of thieves ability I guess it is being treated quite differently. I'm not saying "nerf the other guy's ability" for no reason, Rias. You can't kill someone with this, so it's really not a huge concern, but it is an annoyance and has potential for abuse. If I was trying to nerf thieves, I certainly wouldn't be complaining about dirty fighting considering they have other abilities that are far more dangerous. This really isn't about nerfing someone else's abilities. I fought Jaster who was spamming this one time in the Arena and encountered the same problem. I was stun locked for a considerable period of time and could not do anything besides standing after getting hit by it. Maybe the solution is to reduce the stun duration by one second to allow an action after standing? I'd like to again suggest that it cause paranoia effect just like any other stealth attack.

I'd certainly like to see this type of thing for brofist (and I have suggested some similar things in the past). Maybe a knee kick that causes a knockdown and stun or knockdown and difficulty standing, and jaw shots that cause knockout or stun effects.

The kind of "stealth" being invoked here is that of people who can be talking to you face to face and robbing you blind without your having a clue. If they can be focusing your attention on themself yet be reaching into your coat pocket to steal your coin purse without you knowing, they can be using similar "stealth" and misdirection to more effectively nail you with sneaky attacks. I'm sure it's harder to pull that stuff off in combat situations, and that's why the combat skills of the defender are taken into account.

I entirely disagree with this. There's a huge difference between misdirection/magic tricks in a casual setting (The type of thing that would allow you to rob someone blind) and engaging in combat with someone who is focused on hurting you, avoiding distractions, and guarding. A brawling exchange has nothing to do with stealth. Just because I can hide well doesn't mean I can effectively cover up the fact that I'm about to stomp on someone's foot. Bringing your knee up to my junk is not stealthy and avoiding it does not require perception, it's about reflexes.

EDIT: It sounds like stealth is the same as the picking pockets skill ...

[Sneaky]

You can only avoid a misdirected attack if you can see it in the first place, he's already said that it's harder to employ these tricks in combat and so that is why dodge and melee are even calculated into the defense roll. There is a very simple way to fix you getting beaten down, and it's called increasing your perception. I believe you were rolling 360 versus my 960, I shouldn't be penalized for having higher skills in my associated skills and abilities, And there shouldn't be some magical buff that makes you invincible to trick so the chances of it happening again are decreased dramaticly. Even with that severe skill difference there were plenty of times when my dirty tricks didn't land and you had time to stand up and run, but instead of doing that you chose to engage continuously over and over again instead of just walking away like you could have. So as far as locking you into stun time for an infinit amount of time like you are implying, it is relatively easy to over come these abilities and leave.

[Jaster]

I think the last time I was in the arena was before the timer was applied to dirtkick,and before some of the more new tricks were added, and it could still be continuously used to cause roundtime. Currently, how it works is that it won't cause roundtime as long as the target is already under the perception debuff of a previous dirtkick.

At any rate, it's not currently possible to lock someone into infinite roundtime using any of the dirty tricks, as far as I know. I'm confident I would have found a way, if it existed.