CLOK BBS

Good afternoon everybody!

So, as things stand, there isn't much incentive for a variety of the weapon specialization abilities past the slight weighting in hitroll/damage roll.

The exceptions to this observation, of course, are the weapons who have abilities associated with them that require the specialization as a prerequisite-- such as riposte, revolver fanning, and arrow volley.

My suggestion, then, is to add an ability for each individual category of weapon, as to add further incentive and benefit for those willing to commit the slots. Examples of such are listed below, one per category of weapon. But before I get to those, a few things.

First, I believe the hamstring ability should be gated behind dagger specialization. It's not a claim I make lightly, but I think given the nature of the proposition i'm making, daggers are the most reasonable sort of weapon to perform this sort of move with from my perspective. Maybe not reasonable in terms of realism-- but reasonable in terms of balance. A hamstring is, more often than not, a move which carries the impressions of underhandedness or stealthiness, and daggers/dagger like weapons are most readily associated with such forms of combat.

Secondly, I don't think any additional abilities should be added for swords, firearms, or bows. They already have several abilities associated with them, and I don't believe they require any more, for the time. We should give more love to the weapons that don't have them as opposed to the weapons that have them already.

That being said, I can move on to the actual. You know. Ability suggestions! As always, suggestions and criticisms are always welcome!

Information on Chains: Constriction
This technique involves using the chain of your chosen weapon to bind the limbs of targets, both hindering mobility and inflicting damage.
(OOC: Attempt to immobilize the targeted limb with your weapon's chain. Upon success, rolls involving the associated limb are temporarily lowered until an opposed roll frees it, or the weapon is used for another attack.)
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization: Chained

Information On Hafted: Cleave
This technique involves temporarily forsaking one's balance and footing in exchange for a more powerful and precise swing of their chosen weapon.
(OOC: Make a single attack with increased damage and accuracy which temporarily lowers your defences for a short time. In addition, each use includes a 50% chance of being knocked prone upon attack completion.)
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization: Hafted

Information on Polearms: Reach
An experienced wielder of polearms can, at times, use the reach of their weapon to interrupt oncoming charges and halt cavalry before their lines can be broken.
(OOC: Adds the small passive chance to interrupt the attacks of mounted combatants and knock them prone.)
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization: Polearms

Information on Slings: Momentum
Firm defences are no match for the capable arm of an experienced slinger. With enough practice, slung projectiles carry a great deal of momentum as they fly.
(OOC: Slung projectiles carry the passive chance to deal concussive damage when blocked by shields, reduce greater energy upon impact, or knock targets prone.)
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization: Slings

Information on Staves: Thrust
An experienced wielder of staves can use their weapon as an extention of the arm to thrust outward toward their opponent, push them backward, and facilitate a more seamless retreat.
(OOC: Upon success, passive chance to automatically transition to ranged position. In addition, passive chance to reduce greater amount of energy upon successful hit on neck, chest, or abdomen.)

Information on Whips: Cracking
The crack of the whip is unmistakeable to the ears of an accompoished wielder, as well as their targets. An experienced practitioner is capable of snapping and controlling the length of their weapon in a precise manner otherwise impossible to the novice.
(OOC: Adds additional special maneuvers which trigger upon additional hit locations when using whips, as well as a small weight toward triggering said maneuvers while hyperfocus is active.)
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization: Whips
((Additional info: When you use whips, you have the passive chance to trip/disarm your opponent if you hit their hands or feet. This would add more things like that with a passiv chance to activate on each individual location. A choke attack for the neck, a blinding rake to the eyes, wrapping it around the head/torso to manipulate your opponent into a flanking position, etc.))

BONUS: Weapon Specialization: Hurled

Information on Snapshot:
With a nimble hand, individuals proficient in the practice of throwing weapons, be them knives, rocks, axes, or javelins,, have found efficient methods of capitalizing on the inate weak points of even the thickest armor.
(OOC: Adds the passive chance for thrown weapons to armor chink for a duration of 30 seconds.)
Prerequisites: Weapon Specialization: Hurled, Hyperfocus

Well thought out and if i say so myself. quite good suggestions.

I like all of them.
specially the polearm one.

I like all those. Slings do need some love.

While I generally agree that no more benefits should be added for swords, if you look at those current abilities, they benefit only light swords. The balance I feel is tipped to far away from those sluggish two handed swords. To correct this, I propose that the above-mentioned Cleave ability apply when the character is using either a larger hafted weapon (no walking sticks or carpenter's hammers) or a two handed sword. I would furthermore request that Cleave have a good chance to do double damage to the victim's armor and/or shield that is impacted by it.

I really believe one should be able to Riposte with a staff as well as the above-mentioned Thrust ability. Staffs are so inept a weapon as they are, I would go so far as to request that the Ability Specialization: Staffs itself be expanded to include the ability to riposte (a chance for a single strike back on a parry) with no additional ability required. But then again, if the above-mentioned Cleave ability damaged the staff, I would have to agree with that too.

The ability suggested for the polearm mentioned above should have a reference to set the polearm in the ground so that an oncoming mounted charge has a chance of himself getting impaled on the set polearm and receiving the double damage of the pike or what have you that is set to withstand the charge.

This Polearm specialization I implore the coders to implement as a priority because against a war-mounted charging foe, there is currently no defence other than a roll against your dodge, and should the mounted charger miss the first time, he'll simply repeat the charge or trample two or three times until you're overcome. Your weapon in the mean time will only land a wound or two on him and you'll be defeated nearly every time.

They are nice ideas! As much as I would love a hurled weapons specialization, the last time it was mentioned there did not seem to be any intentions of adding it, but it is still a worthwhile suggestion. Some of the concern seemed to be they were not designed as a primary focus, but maybe if there is enough interest this will change?

Sorry to contradict you, but I somewhat disagree with gating hamstring behind daggers specialization, maybe for similar reasons why players currently dislike mitigate being locked behind sword abilities? There are a good number of weapons which can hamstring which are not daggers, and forcing players who want to hamdstring with light swords or smaller sharp hafted weapons to use a valuable slot for daggers, even if they do not really want to use them, feels as if it restricts diversity needlessly. Sorry if this feels like an unreasonable objection.

Thank you for starting this thread, and hopefully it inspires other creative suggestions and feedback.

-Alila

I think I’m alright with most, maybe except the chain one. Couldn’t think of an alternative suggestion, though.

Just wanted to take a second to express my gratitude regarding the kind words offered for my suggestions, and also for the feedback in regard to hamstring's gating.

Without taking an hour to write a response to Alila/others, suffice to say that I will get to ya'll in just a bit for a more in depth response, but I appreciate your specific feedback immensely, as always. I'm sure the same can be said for others as well.

Chain specialization: inertia control. A chance for the chain weapon to try to roll for another hit if dodged. The second attack will have significantly lowered hit and damaged rolls however.

Alila wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:59 pm They are nice ideas! As much as I would love a hurled weapons specialization, the last time it was mentioned there did not seem to be any intentions of adding it, but it is still a worthwhile suggestion. Some of the concern seemed to be they were not designed as a primary focus, but maybe if there is enough interest this will change?

In truth, the hurled weapons stuff was a bonus for that specific reason. I remember that conversation well, and the logic behind it made sense. But boy, I still couldn't resist the thought. Even if it's not going to go anywhere, haha.

Alila wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:59 pm Sorry to contradict you, but I somewhat disagree with gating hamstring behind daggers specialization, maybe for similar reasons why players currently dislike mitigate being locked behind sword abilities? There are a good number of weapons which can hamstring which are not daggers, and forcing players who want to hamdstring with light swords or smaller sharp hafted weapons to use a valuable slot for daggers, even if they do not really want to use them, feels as if it restricts diversity needlessly. Sorry if this feels like an unreasonable objection.

First, not an unreasonable objection at all, no apology needed.
Second-- I can see the logic in your point, and I can agree that it would likely dissatisfy people if that particular ability was gated. But the logic behind my choice, I think, is sound, given the amount of finesse required to effectively pull off a move of that variety in a live combat situation. Especially if there's armor involved. I don't disagree that it would be possible to do the same with, say, a longsword, shortsword, hatchet, or the like. As stated previously, it was more an attempt at using an already existing ability to further support daggers as a viable weapon class. Your arguments aren't invalid, however, and in truth, aside from the argument presented about finesse previously, I can't really think of any other counterarguments. As always, the feedback's appreciated, and I think the criticism's valid. I should experiment more and see what weapons one can actually hamstring with aside from light swords/daggers.

Alila wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:59 pm Thank you for starting this thread, and hopefully it inspires other creative suggestions and feedback.
-Alila

And again-- thank *YOU*. You're great. Keep being great.

Lemuel wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:57 pm While I generally agree that no more benefits should be added for swords, if you look at those current abilities, they benefit only light swords. The balance I feel is tipped to far away from those sluggish two handed swords. To correct this, I propose that the above-mentioned Cleave ability apply when the character is using either a larger hafted weapon (no walking sticks or carpenter's hammers) or a two handed sword. I would furthermore request that Cleave have a good chance to do double damage to the victim's armor and/or shield that is impacted by it.

See, I was actually thinking about those big ol' swords when I came up with this one, too. I'm not so sure about the double damage thing-- charge covers that nicely when mounted already, and the base damage of most two handed blades are pretty hefty in their own right, too. I don't really think the doubling's mechanically needed, though your logic in it is understandable.

My follow-up thought to this would be some sort of large weapon focus ability similar to the dual wielding ability that facilitates the ability to deal concussive damage to shields, use an ability like this one, etc. in place of a specialization.

Or maybe one of those situations where you either have the large weapon focus ability OR the hafted specialization. I dunno. That's another can of worms entirely, really. But I like the thought of it. I feel like we could come up with something equally neat for a two-handed weapon ability that isn't cleave if we really wanted to, as well. I'm starting to ramble, though.

Lemuel wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:57 pm I really believe one should be able to Riposte with a staff as well as the above-mentioned Thrust ability. Staffs are so inept a weapon as they are, I would go so far as to request that the Ability Specialization: Staffs itself be expanded to include the ability to riposte (a chance for a single strike back on a parry) with no additional ability required. But then again, if the above-mentioned Cleave ability damaged the staff, I would have to agree with that too.

This is a neat enough thought too, I think. The riposte one more than the cleave one, in my opinion. I don't think of cleaving when I think of staves. The other ability I had in mind for staves was something similar to unarmed: arrow deflection where you had a chance to use the parry rolls of your staff to block incoming projectiles like a shield would. But it seemed a little too anime-y or game-y upon further thought, so I went with the concept of thrust, instead. It seemed more graspable. The other thought was some sort of sweeping ability-- but I didn't want to fill the entire list of ability suggestions with stuff that knocked people prone. There were a few things that did that already, so I figured the whole point of diversifying specializations with more abilities was to make different weapons more. Well. Diverse.

Suggestions appreciated, though. You always approach these things with a foundation of thought, which I care for, personally.

Lemuel wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:57 pm The ability suggested for the polearm mentioned above should have a reference to set the polearm in the ground so that an oncoming mounted charge has a chance of himself getting impaled on the set polearm and receiving the double damage of the pike or what have you that is set to withstand the charge.

This was my initial thought as well, but assumed the ability that i posted would be easier to implement from a mechanical standpoint. That being said, I think this would serve as a fantastic ability in it's own right-- a nice drawback for such being that you sacrifice your dodge roll and rely on your polearms/melee skill vs the target's melee/riding to land a hit on either the horse or it's rider.

Lemuel wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:57 pm This Polearm specialization I implore the coders to implement as a priority because against a war-mounted charging foe, there is currently no defence other than a roll against your dodge, and should the mounted charger miss the first time, he'll simply repeat the charge or trample two or three times until you're overcome. Your weapon in the mean time will only land a wound or two on him and you'll be defeated nearly every time.

You're not technically wrong, but there are also a few alternatives. Especially thanks to a recent bug fix (really, thank you for that.) You could attack their horse until it has a leg injury too severe, grapple them off of their horse, hide, disarm them and hide their weapon, hamstring their horse, etc. Not all so viable as I make them seem, but all technically possible.

Again-- thank you both for your suggestions and feedback. These are great, and thought provoking in their own capacity. Don't take my counters as dismissal or saying, "You're wrong." because that's totally not what I'm about. I just like productive discussions.

I didn't mean cleaving with the staff. I meant, if you landed a cleave on me and i parried it with my staff, my staff would be damaged or split by your cleave.

Also the double damage I referred to was not to the person's wounds, as charging does, but to his armor (vambraces) and/or shield. And maybe a chance to split a cheap or already damaged shield. I am not sure you should be able to cleave while mounted, it is something I picture bracing on the ground with both feet and holding the weapon with both hands to downswing upon the foe.

For a long time, I have believed that two-handed sword attacks should have a chance to inflict concussive damage when blocked by a shield. Maybe a little less chance and a little less damage that a greataxe or sledgehammer does, but a chance any way. At least the chance a one-handed handaxe attack has. Not an ability or specialization per se, but something that could negate needing a specialization for.

Maybe the chain weapon special ability should be an ability that would grant you a chance at a disarm if your opponent successfully blocked or parried your attack with no damage taken

For two handed weapons, we at this point might need to consider a tactics for the fighting style, as tactics: guardian has for weapon/shield users. (though tactics Guardian really needs its auto shove feature fixed at some point).

unless you're playing as a dwaeden Wyr, two handed weapons are just bad to use, especially in heavy armor. Many come with severe parry penalties, you can't offhand a shield, and if you decide to go the armor route, as demonstrated with a few mobiles, you end up just being vulnerable to incoming damage that frankly armor at times can't mitigate too well. You are forced to either go with a hand and a half weapon with a shield, or dual wield lighter weapons in either case. Only Dwaeden Wyr characters bother with tumble dodging with a two hander, usually affording it with boar spirit if not using drake scale and the like.

With a lack of defenses, one also is vulnerable to a lot of status and disabling maneuvers, that essentially throw you off. You don't have this issue if you can dodge worth something without rolls being weighted down (again, why dwaedens seem to be the ones using two handers the most).

At this point, we might need to consider a tactics for two handers that turn you into the implacable man. one, where if you forgo a shield and just hold a hand and a half weapon or a two hander, grants bonus armor resistance, severe resistance to stuns/knockdowns and a focus on counter attacks when struck, or warding off attacks with a parry that focus on hard hits with knockdowns. The counter attack also gets bonus to rolls/meets a penalized defense being a rapid strike that occurs while the opponent is hitting you, alla trading hits. And one never wants to be trading hits with a person in heavy armor and a large, meaty weapon.

...basically, tactics: offense with a whole suite of armor and stun/knockdown resistances to keep going for longer while eating hits to the face and introducing other people to the ground with harder hitting war maul/greataxes.


Outside of that, a general weapon ability for large weapons might be warranted for sword to at least get some love. IMHO, riposte should really not be tied to swords, and be considered for other weapon categories like staves. Swords should get something more universal to apply to both light and heavy blades, as what the other suggestions are granting to light/heavy options.

the Polearm specialization ability should really be more innate for polearms in general, with pikes getting the best results for meeting a charge or trample. instead, may I recommend Polearm Warding as an alternative?

Polearm Warding; As an expert polearm user, you have learned that distance is key to y our success. So far, you have used your greater range to dodge incoming blows as your opponent must clear the distance. However, why even let them get close? meet their engage with your polearm and step back, defending and striking one in such a manner to maintain proper distancing and guerilla tactics.

OOC: the ability to attack targets with your polearm from ranged position. if they're in position engaged. Meet attempts to engage against you with an automatic attack to try to ward them back. As well, strike targets attempting to retreat from you to pos ranged with a parting shot with your polearm. (note: You cannot strike another target with this ability who's also in position ranged/avoid).

Vaz, that sounds basically like dwaedn’s cocktail though. Here’s a counter suggestion.
A tactic that reduces energy drain when wearing heavy armor and not using shields and wielding a weapon weighing a certain weight and up. Improves parry chances of the weapons and a chance to reduce unparriable damage, this one relies on your dodge and or perception.

Vaelin wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:26 pm Chain specialization: inertia control. A chance for the chain weapon to try to roll for another hit if dodged. The second attack will have significantly lowered hit and damaged rolls however.

Truth be told, when a chain wraps around someone's weapon or shield, and still strikes the defender, it should do reduced damage in comparison with a clean unhindered strike.

I think a couple of the Original ideas are too powerful or too specific. For example, why is cleave limited to hafted weapons or snapshot to hurled when you could feasably do these with other weapon types as well.

In addition, if we're going to have melee weapon specialties. One might consider gating these mostly behind the mercenary guild as that makes sense to me but I don't feel stronglya bout it one way or another.

As a general rule I think it would be nice for weapons that are easier to train like swords and daggers to require extra actual ability slots to unlock special abilities like riposte currently requires. And for weapons like chains which are much harder to train to gain a passive ability once you pick up the original weapon spec.

Also, whilst swords in general might not need help. Heavy swords definitely do, execution, great and flamberge's should all do concussive damage irregardless of weapon spec. I also propose two sword abilities.

Impale:
You ram your sword through your enemy, possibly pinning them in place.
Requires a hand and a half / 2 handed sword that can pierce/ polearm that can pierce.
Has 3 levels of success:
1. Miss, total fail. Roll is Melee + sword/polearm + how often the sword should pierce, so for Estocs this bonus should be noticeable.
2. Success; target is impaled and starts bleeding irregardless of damage dealt as the blade is withdrawn or target twists away enough to free themselves.
3. Optimum success; target is impaled fully, which means they are rooted and perhaps stunned for some small number of seconds. If they are mounted they are knocked from their mount instead of being stunned. Target cannot do any combat or movement related actions without taking significant damage to the bodypart being impaled as if there is a very large arrow or stone lodged there. Wielder cannot use the weapon and attacking again autowithdraws the weapon. Target can attempt to free themselves of course.

Drawbacks, its a big two handed thrust, It should probably cost 2 or 3 higher seconds than a normal attack round costs.

For chains I'd like to see a passive effect added to its spec that weights or increases the damage roll for every chain strike that doesn't hit something depending on your skill in chains. For example. Someone who has 500 chains who might usually do 50 damage on a hit, will do 55 if they miss once, then 60 on the third hit if they've missed twice in a row. Then returns to 50 until they start missing again. If they stop battleing it also resets to normal. This effect should always break if they stop battleing since they aren't keeping up the momentum.
I'd be happy with slightly higher caps for higher chains skill.

Daggers don't really need that much help. But given recent developments. an ability to palm them without echoing to the room seems appropriate. Or an ability for the first round of dagger attacks if a successful stealth attack to not be noticed by the target.
Pin point attack:
Trained well in the art of knives, you know how to cut, stab and slice in just the right place as to delay the pain of the target.
Target only sees bleeding effects and a generic you were attacked 1 or 2 seconds after the attack actually lands.

Or
Jam it in:
You can attempt to stab your target, leaving your dagger there as a hindrance. Lets you stab and leave your dagger in someone as if they were hit by a stone or arrow that lodged. Causing extra damage and energy loss with each of target's movements.

Hafted weapons are pretty well balanced at the moment. Personally I don't think they need an ability but if pushed I'd say hafted weapons should have an ability that lets them power attack to knock someone to sitting position / flung across the room if not blocked / dodged. Or pressed/ stunned for 2 secs if blocked by a shield. Even axes should be able to do this. I see this as someone hitting hard enough with an axe which embeds in the enemy and then they heave to throw someone across the room.

Polearms are included in my impale idea above and while i think the reach idea is cool, I think the reach of polearms is already represented well by the higher dodge bonus they grant.

I think staves should get an ability that lets them ignore the penalties as if they had multiponent combat so long as they are in parry stance. or they should be added to the list of weapons for swash buckling. I don't know how accurate it is but I don't think I've read a fantasy book with a staff master who isn't a sage at quick feints, disarms and trips with the weapon.

I'm pretty happy with the whips suggestion. Though I'd add that it should be closer to swash buckling which isn't dependant on where you hit. You should just get a passive chance to feint, disarm or trip whilst using the whip stance ability.