You can't do that...causing deaths

[Kent]

I recently tried out a new fighting character to get a feel for it.

Two lowbie skill checks in particular result in a lot of deaths when failed.

1. You try to flee, but, "You are unable to get away from your opponents" over and over again

2. You're bleeding to death, but, "You can't get the bandages to set right" over and over again, and you pass out and die


Keep in mind that the success rates of these skill checks were made way back when, at a time when a death was not the sting that it is now.


To balance the game, I request some change in coding to make fewer failures. I can think of two possible methods to implement this:

a. Increase the odds, especially at low levels, of a success in these skill checks, or

b. The "Third time's a charm" method, where the odds remain the same, but whenever a player attempts to flee three times in a row or bandage a wound three times in a row, if he fails the first two times, the third attempt is a guaranteed success.

[Kent]

Also, some ideas to make bleed outs less common:

Make it easier to type in the bandage command. Currently we have to type in band my chest, can we have it so it's band my ch ? And currently we have to type in band my l foot, can we have it so it's band my l f ?

Another idea for bandaging, is to be able to buy a tourniquet for 5 riln, and if you type in 'tourniquet left leg' then it does one more point of damage but stops the bleeding at a much higher success rate than bandaging it. Usable only on limbs.

[Kiyaani]

Position Avoid is already pretty OP. It sounds to me like you were getting caught in surround mechanics and this is how they are supposed to work. Maybe the better lesson here is to learn your limitations. As a new character - don't go picking fights you know you can't win. Everyone has to go through a learning phase and what you're asking for sounds like hand-holding. Also - first aid is ridiculously easy to skill up in. Bandage every scrape you get and you won't have to worry about a fail trying to stop bleeding later on.

I hate to repeat everyone else but... death in Clok is really not that bad. You don't lose anything (except potentially some riln). You get a penalty that can be worked off super easy ONLY if you depart. Monk resurrection only takes time. Rook retrieval has a slight IC penalty that is easily removed. I'm sorry that you had a bad situation due to the IC decisions of both yourself and others, but I really don't think these are things that need to be implemented. If people wear armor, take precautions, stay within their limits then none of these situations you describe should be an issue.

[Kiyaani]

Remember also that brand new characters have an effect that gives them free bandaging at infirmaries for those bleeders you have trouble with. If you're too far from help - armor and staying within your skill range will greatly limit the chances of you even getting to that point.

[Kent]

Remember also that brand new characters have an effect that gives them free bandaging at infirmaries for those bleeders you have trouble with. If you're too far from help - armor and staying within your skill range will greatly limit the chances of you even getting to that point.

Brand new people don't always know what their skill range is. CLOK lacks a 'consider' command like many other muds have. Usually the only way for the newbie to find out what his skill range is, is to go in and try, and if he's in the wrong place, he is either unable to flee, and/or he cannot bandage his bleeding wounds or get to a healer in time.

New players don't have the speedwalk to the infirmary memorized like we do.

New players don't have enough starting money to buy a suit of the cheapest armor in the game.

When my lowbie character had 40 first aid skill, he was still getting multiple fails on 'bandage me".

[Kent]

If people wear armor, take precautions, stay within their limits then none of these situations you describe should be an issue.

This doesn't help new players, Kiyaani.

[Lassyn]

Let's go ahead and direct the ship back into Ritalin bay, shall we?
Kent - Great points, and ones that we'll consider. While part of the goal is to make Clok gritty and dangerous, you bring up important ideas that we will definitely consider. Thanks for bringing them up.
Kiyaani - Also valid points, but perhaps not points directed towards the normative newbie experience. I agree that the ideas you list will help, but many new players may not be aware of them, or would know to make use of them.

Our goal is always to be welcoming to new players, and I think Kent's ideas have given us some places to act on the GM side. On the player side, why not work through IC methods to put up signage, classes, and more to help our newbies (and new old players) get acquainted to the world we love so much?

[Jaster]

Wearing armor, taking precautions, and staying within your limits are valid and helpful advice points for ANY player.

Wearing armor doesn't have to mean a full suit of armor. It's also "easy" to make riln, with a little bit of time and boring grind, as a new player by following the extremely common advice of foraging for herbs. Plus, they can train their first-aid up just by sitting at the infirmary and bandaging NPCs (yes, buying bandages with their hard forage-earned riln). It's easy. It's safe. It's boring, and maybe that's why some people don't do it, but it's there.

CLOK has come a very long way from the "old days" if we're talking about newbie friendliness. Could the beginning game for new players be improved? Probably, but newbie friendliness doesn't have to equate to brainless hand-holding at every step. I'm all for making (strong) suggestions for new players to follow, but I say we leave it up to them to follow them. There's no reason they shouldn't be capable of doing that.

[Kiyaani]

@Kent - All a new player has to do is ask. Clok veterans are willing to help usually. In fact, I've never seen a time when no help was offered to someone asking. If there's not armor in the town crate they'll usually loan some or buy some for newbies. Newbies can post on a board or ask over ESP for help, for tips, for armor etc. There's usually at least one person around. There's also the question channel, PMs, the boards, the wiki etc.

Most new people I've seen will ask how dangerous a place is if they're out exploring or will ask for a guide. If they don't and truly want to be independent then chances are either 1) position avoid will be their friend long enough for them to run away or 2) they will learn very quickly which areas are safe enough to venture into and what their limits are 3) they realize the risks involved and are willing to accept them.

@Lassyn - Awareness is definitely an issue though and I'm glad you brought that up. Why don't we focus on helping in that way rather than trying to change fundamentals that have been in place for years and which haven't been a problem? I agree the game should be encouraging and helpful, but I don't think it needs to give newbies more of an advantage just because they're new. It seems very OOC.

And yes, Kent, there is not a consider-type mechanic. Maybe some enterprising player would be willing to update the maps section of the wiki (as so many other games do) with maps of dangerous areas and approximate skill levels. Though I'm not sure the GMs want this much information out there and would probably prefer people explore and learn for themselves via more IC means.

[Bryce]

What will happen when these lowbies get used to succeeding the majority of the time, and their chances actually get -worse- as their skills get better since they'll no longer be eligible for a lowbie bonus?

[Lassyn]

As a quick note, I said that Kent's ideas were worth considering, as all ideas are. Never promised they would be adopted, but wanted to drop a line saying that we'll think about it.
This GM consideration should be unrelated to IC action taken by interested parties, though.

[preiman]

perhaps something that would help is a permanent post on the town boards that reminds people that people new to the lands, or something like that can receive attention at the infirmaries for no charge, and reminds them that the lands outside the town are extremely dangerous and should only be traversed with care.

[Kiyaani]

That or a message similar to the first time entering the wilderness - hope you have enough food - post that already gets sent out for newbies would be great :) Good idea, Preiman.

[Bryce]

perhaps something that would help is a permanent post on the town boards that reminds people that people new to the lands, or something like that can receive attention at the infirmaries for no charge, and reminds them that the lands outside the town are extremely dangerous and should only be traversed with care.

Preiman for president. This is a great idea.

[preiman]

Let's make CLOK great again!

[Kent]

I do not appreciate the unnecessary and inappropriate sarcasm posted above by some players. . Changing the mechanics so a new player does not fail over and over and over again when trying to bandage a bleeding wound themselves is not 'holding their hands', and shame on you for saying so.

[Tamsin]

I love the idea of helpful information being given to new players! I would suggest that it be given in small chunks, like that message that tells you when you first go into the wilderness about what you might be able to do to help yourself!

Like, maybe the first time they get a moderate wound it could say something like... "You've been pretty hurt. You're not going to die, but if your moderately wounded body part gets damaged anymore, you will start to bleed and possibly die. There are infirmaries in town that will bandage new characters, but that will only last a little while, so now's a good time to start learning to carry bandages and be careful about how much damage you take"

[Jirato]

Make it easier to type in the bandage command. Currently we have to type in band my chest, can we have it so it's band my ch ? And currently we have to type in band my l foot, can we have it so it's band my l f ? .

'band me' will target your most severe unbandaged wound.

[Kiyaani]

Really? It used to go in order top-down not by severity. That's great to know. I must have missed a changelog somewhere.

[Fayne]

perhaps something that would help is a permanent post on the town boards that reminds people that people new to the lands, or something like that can receive attention at the infirmaries for no charge, and reminds them that the lands outside the town are extremely dangerous and should only be traversed with care.

I've always considered the free bandaging for characters with the newbie bonus to be quite an OOC mechanic. It is entirely possible to build up enough skill to get rid of the newbie bonus before ever having to visit an infirmary, so an IC post saying "Yeah, you totally get free healing services if you're new around here" doesn't make much sense. Plus, add the fact that some people RP as characters who have always lived in the Lost Lands, and that every infirmary stops giving you free healing at the same time whether you've ever visited them or not, and it becomes less IC and more OOC. Plus, those healers have to make a living, I seriously doubt they would ever heal people for free unless there were some sort of major illness or battle, and even then I imagine they would get support from whichever town government is affected.

In short, the free healing new characters receive while under the newbie bonus is not really an IC thing, it's more a mechanic put in place to lessen the sting of combat training when all your skills are at level zero. Perhaps the best solution would be to put up a blurb in the Crossroads of Life that states all new characters receive free healing while their newbie bonus is still active. (I thought there was something in the tutorial that already stated this, but I could be wrong.)

[Kent]

What will happen when these lowbies get used to succeeding the majority of the time, and their chances actually get -worse- as their skills get better since they'll no longer be eligible for a lowbie bonus?

My suggestion would apply to all characters, but would benefit lowbies more than senior characters. For example, my senior character very rarely fails a bandage attempt three times in a row, so little would change for seniors should that method be implemented. If the other method were implemented, to make up some sample suggestion numbers, a new character with 1 first aid skill would have the odds currently held by level 25 first aiders, a lowbie char with 50 would be like a current 70, a 100 skill in the proposed new system would bandage like a current 110, and an intermediate characters with 200 and up would be the same success chance as he does now.

[Kent]

<Duplicate post delete attempt>

[Skjotur]

We need tougher stock, people should start in the wilderness with nothing but a flint knife and their wits.

But seriously I like the idea of informing players instead of fixing the dice. I fail all sorts of important rolls more than three times sometimes. It's just how the dice work. Sometimes a badly bleeding injury is fatal, that's how it should be.

[Dakhal]

We need tougher stock, people should start in the wilderness with nothing but a flint knife and their wits.

I would so love this.

While we're at it, make it so towns won't let you inside until you earn their trust

[Kent]

Make it easier to type in the bandage command. Currently we have to type in band my chest, can we have it so it's band my ch ? And currently we have to type in band my l foot, can we have it so it's band my l f ? .

'band me' will target your most severe unbandaged wound.

Jirato, so we can dispel this myth, the last time I played (last week), Kiyaani was right.

Band Me will bandage the wound closest to your head in descending order, and not the most severe wound.

Can we change it to most severe and save some newbies, please?