CLOK BBS

First of all, this isn't a suggestion for a new option. It's actually for a command.

Now, a lot of us come to a point where we honestly wouldn't mind if our character happened to die permanently. Some of us may even use death as a reason our characters never come back after we retire them. And still others feel like they want that extra caution of never knowing which death might be your last. While making everyone have to be subject to this would be accurate lore-wise, it would also be a bit unfair. Making it an option that can be toggled on at any time, but not off, would kinda solve this issue, but it still wouldn't be completely satisfactory to everyone. Some of us only want to be able to come back once or twice, some of us want to have a decent cushion, and some of us don't want to see it coming.

Here is my suggestion: a new command that can not only opt you into the permadeath mechanic, but would also let you set a number for how many deaths you have remaining. If someone is ready to retire their character, they could set it to one or two, and then keep going until the time comes. If someone decides they want to be forced to eventually give up their character, they could set it to 50 or so and keep going. Or, if you feel adventerous, you could specify that you want a random number set on your character, and be truly surprised when that last death finally comes for you.

I would see this working into the legacy system suggested elsewhere, so anyone who chooses to do this won't have to start completely over from scratch, and they get to benefit for their dedication to lore.

I see this creating a whole new wave of RP, where well-established characters die for the final time while fighting to push back a wave of nethrim or infested during an event, friends they thought they'd never lose suddenly don't come back, and the lives of the Undying who think of themselves as nearly invincible are occasionally rocked by the loss of someone close to them.

Another thing I'd like to suggest is a suicide command that essentially does the same thing, but sets the number of remaining deaths to 1 and then kills you at the same time. You would have to have a bladed weapon of course, and you would need a vital area to be unarmored. Rias will have to step in to say whether or not lore would permit it, but I imagine if the soul has lost all will to live, it would be harder to coax it to come back. I do know there is a theory in lore that at least some nethrim are the souls of people that were lost or didn't move on correctly, and considering that most nethrim seem extremely sad or furious based on their descriptions and even behavior sometimes, perhaps suicide being it's own form of finality isn't so out of the question. Perhaps it would fit with lore, but is considered too dark to implement. In that case, suicide could still be an option through my previous suggestion, just a little less dark since you would have to rely on other mechanics instead of doing the deed yourself.

I don't want to say this couldn't or shouldn't be a thing, but speaking from experience working support for a game that had a hardcore mode with permadeath believe me when I say it can cause a lot of grief from the support/GM end. People will have regrets. People will say well, I wouldn't have minded the permadeath if it had been legit, but x, y, z happened and now I demand my character back. People will have second thoughts. People may even forget they have it toggled and not have actually wanted it. And not everyone will take responsibility for their decision and accept the results.

Clok is a game that takes a lot of effort to get good at most things. While people may say they're alright with permadeath now, I have to wonder if they've really considered exactly how many hours they put into a character's development or how long it takes to start over from scratch. I have. As someone with many alts, most of which I don't level past 200 skill due to the time investment (and several I've leveled well past 500), believe me I have.

I guess all I'm really saying is, if this gets implemented I hope there's a huge disclaimer before toggling. It won't stop the inevitable QQ, but it will at least be something staff can point to and say - this is what you wanted/agreed to.

I'd also like to say that I'm a supporter of people being able to show restraint. I think permadeath as an option is completely unnecessary. If you want a character to die, just stop playing them. It should be a personal decision and shouldn't require GM or code intervention. In the last year alone I've seen multiple people retire characters only to bring them back days or weeks later with little or no explanation. And that's fine. Again, that's a personal choice. But how would permadeath have made those people feel about their ability to rejoin the game and enjoy their time?

I think this is a neat suggestion, but yes a disclaimer.

Considering how easy it is to die in CLOK, I think this is just opening a can of worms regardless if it were opt in or not. Like Kiki said, there would be QQ either way. The GMs don't need that on their plate (or conscience), not that I can speak for them.

I agree it's a great idea theoretically..
but people don't run on logic. We tend to run more on emotions, which are flawed. Kiyaani has a good point. There would be regrets- and extra frustrations for the GM's.

Kiyaani wrote:I'd also like to say that I'm a supporter of people being able to show restraint. I think permadeath as an option is completely unnecessary. If you want a character to die, just stop playing them. It should be a personal decision and shouldn't require GM or code intervention. In the last year alone I've seen multiple people retire characters only to bring them back days or weeks later with little or no explanation. And that's fine. Again, that's a personal choice. But how would permadeath have made those people feel about their ability to rejoin the game and enjoy their time?

Pretty much this. If you want to play a permadeath PC, just log off of them when they die, and never log on again. Added code for it could be interesting, but seems (especially until death mechanics are up to scratch with what the GMs what) superfluous.

Sure, there would be regrets. And yes, it would need a disclaimer. And to clarify, I'm not suggesting this be a "one-and-done" type of thing, where you use the command once and that's it. If you have deaths remaining, you can always adjust it, or even turn it off. Maybe even have it take you to a seperate Void when you die the last time where you can take door 1 and go back to the regular Void and keep on living, or take door 2 and die for good. Multiple fail-safes are never a bad thing for a permanent decision.

However, I do believe it would cause much less issues than anticipated. One MUD I've seen even made suicide the only permadeath available, and it was actually a high-level ability you had to work hard for to get, meaning only well-established characters could die forever.

In the end, an option for permadeath is kinda like sushi at an all-you-can-eat buffet. You can eat it or not, and if you choose to, you have to live with it if it ends up making you sick later. I do understand what it's like to start over from scratch, trust me. I have enough alts to make peoples' eyes bulge, and it can be a lot of work with little fun to get their skills up. That's why I suggested working this into a legacy system. I know such a system is being at least considered for implementation; the problem with such a system is finding a satisfactory way to prevent someone from going back and playing that character again, and still having it be reasonable IC as well. With this method, the character is dead as dead can be, no more revival. Combine it with a system that awards you skill points to put toward a new character based on the skills you had prior to death, and you have a pretty fair deal.

Agreeing with a few in this thread. It's a nice idea, but I fail to see why people can't just die ingame and decide never to log in again. Then, if the legacy system comes in, they can legacy (I verbed it) that dead char.
Can't and won't speak for GMs, so I'll just say that personally I'd rather coding time go towards awesome things that aren't currently ingame rather than a flashier way to do what can already be done with a little will power.

Permadeath:

email not_real@nowhere.com
/password [insert random button-mashing here]
quit

I would add one step to Rias' permadeath thing:
Delete Client Logs of Last Session!

The only thing I like about this idea is that it'd help change people's view on death IG. I for one would rather people not tell me in any way shape or form if they have this option toggled or not.

On the other hand, I agree with Kiyaani and the rest of that line of opinion. It's just too much drama and frustration. Just don't play your character after some dramatic farewell.

I really am not a fan of killing off a character and then bringing it back days later. I find it tacky roleplay and frustrating for the rest of us who would want to take that sort of thing seriously but have a hard time doing so as it is.

At the end of the day, I vote no on this one.

There actually already is a permadeath toggle that I put in out of boredom earlier this year, all it does is prevent soul retrieval, soul beacon, and depart. But it's more for a special character/NPC I made than the players. I'd like to make it a bit more IC with fancy lore reasons and a post-death experience behind it rather than just leave it as it is before having something available for players.

But if you really, really, REALLY want to permadie, we can talk. But it would be a 100% all or nothing, no excuses, no exceptions. Lag? Disconnect? Server crash? Crazy GM-ran invasion with monsters that are easily killing everything in sight? Doesn't matter - if you have that tag, it's not coming off and if you die that's it.

Yeah, what I see coming from this is frequent emails complaining about a "cheap" death, or "so-and-so just killed me cause they knew I had permadeath on and wanted to grief me" or "I wanted to die heroically, not to a tree falling on me while logging" or "I died during lag" or "I had to pee real bad and left the keyboard, it was an OOC reason" or arguing over whether their death was a bug and they should have their character restored, or "well if I knew event X or feature Y was coming out soon I never would have turned on permadeath" or "well I thought my friend left and didn't realize they'd be coming back" and on, and on, and on.

Yuck.

Exercise the willpower, or do what I suggested previously, if you want your character to be gone gone good gone good.

Because seriously, judging by how many people have had their characters "die" or claim they were retiring them (or from the game completely) and then they showed up again a few days/weeks later ... this kind of thing would not go well.

I know, I know. I'm a Negative Norman.

Rias wrote:Yeah, what I see coming from this is frequent emails complaining about a "cheap" death, or "so-and-so just killed me cause they knew I had permadeath on and wanted to grief me" or "I wanted to die heroically, not to a tree falling on me while logging" or "I died during lag" or "I had to pee real bad and left the keyboard, it was an OOC reason" or arguing over whether their death was a bug and they should have their character restored, or "well if I knew event X or feature Y was coming out soon I never would have turned on permadeath" or "well I thought my friend left and didn't realize they'd be coming back" and on, and on, and on.

If any of that happened, my response would be, "Well, tough luck, that's what happens when you have permadeath on." And then I'm a horrible person and CLOK sucks, time to talk about how unfair the game is and how the GMs are horrible. Then they quit playing entirely, potentially bringing two or three of their friends with them. Yeah... forget what I said about having a permadeath tag for a special character. Permadeath tag? What permadeath tag? I have no idea what you're talking about. :-D

A reminder to all, the death system is still very unfinished.

Lysse wrote:

Pretty much this. If you want to play a permadeath PC, just log off of them when they die, and never log on again. Added code for it could be interesting, but seems (especially until death mechanics are up to scratch with what the GMs what) superfluous.

To agree with Lysse and rephrase it...if you want to opt in to Perma-death, it's easy enough to set up your own mechanics for it at home. All you need is pencil, paper, and some dice. You get to make up whatever criteria and remaining deaths you wish. When your chosen criteria for perma-death has been reached, you don't depart, you don't Look Bell, you simply log out and never log in again. Ever.