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Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:40 pm
by Kent
I would like a reconsideration for the act of chipping the edges off a rock requiring an entire ability slot.
Keep in mind, this skill lies in the context of a game where the best possible knapped item is Average.
I would estimate that the main difference between a real life person with high knapping and one with low knapping would
be more in terms of completion time. As a secondary consideration the former produces Average, the latter Below-Average, the practical implications of which amount to no great difference.
I don't think it's balanced to require a slot to do this. Perhaps a compromise would be to include this ability in with both Basic Bushcraft
and Lapidary, so that if a character chooses either, he can also knap?
My 2 riln worth on the subject.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:15 pm
by Lysse
If it was rolled into Basic Bushcrafting, it definitely shouldn't be included in Lapidary. Lapidary deals with specialized equipment, whereas flint knapping requires very specific skills.
That being said, flint knapping is actually not as easy as it's presented, in Clok. It actually requires specialized (different from lapidary) tools, as well as some knowledge of mineralogy (including how certain minerals fracture, as well as the properties of the stones and minerals being used), and takes a LOT of practice. I see no reason with having it require its own ability slot.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:19 pm
by Kunren
Just going to put in here, one of my only continuing main snags of annoyance with clok is the quality cap on knapping. I just hate to see someone never be able to get beyond average no matter how skilled they are at it. I'd easily accept some other major disadvantages in exchange, but the knapping quality cap just rubs me wrong.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:27 am
by Jirato
Show me a knapped knife that performs better than a forged one, IRL.
Knapping is mostly meant as a feature for those that would rather not deal with the luxury of city life and not have access to forges. It's never going to be better forging.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:09 am
by Lysse
Jirato wrote:Show me a knapped knife that performs better than a forged one, IRL.
Knapping is mostly meant as a feature for those that would rather not deal with the luxury of city life and not have access to forges. It's never going to be better forging.
There's actually evidence to suggest that the Aztecs (if memory serves correctly) had specialized, unknown techniques for knapping, which allowed them to create obsidian edged weaponry that could perform on a much better level than modern knapped lithics.
That being said, I don't imagine most if any of the PCs in the Lost Lands would ever have knowledge of such a thing.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:42 pm
by Fayne
I do agree that knapping isn't as easy as CLOK mechanics make it seem, and that knapping wouldn't ever realistically be as good as forging, but I do think it should be bundled with bushcrafting basics. The people who are likely to get knapping will undoubtedly get bushcrafting skills as well, and knapped items are so nerfed it's practically a handicap to use them, between the reduced durability, quality cap, and ineffectiveness against nethrim.
Now, as an argument against the cap, I don't understand what the deal is. If knapped items aren't supposed to be as effective as forged weapons, make them cause less damage. All the quality does is weight certain rolls up by a percentage, at least mechanically. I interpret that as the item being made well enough as to be easier to use in some way, maybe because its weight is distributed properly, or it is easy to grip, or the edge is sharp enough to ease in cutting slightly. With knapped items, I imagine all of those would apply. No, they wouldn't be quite as effective as forged items, but they would still be fairly effective. I think knapped items should have the cap removed, at least for aesthetic purposes if nothing else. But, I think the better solution is slightly reduced damage capabilities on knapped items, rather than a quality cap, as the arguments made in support of the quality cap all seem like they would better support a reduction in damage.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:17 pm
by Rias
Knapping was a huge "I just do it cause I can" thing, and that type of stuff always bugs me. Seriously, it was like everyone did it.
Why yes, I am a refined and haughty member of Rook Parlour! I drink tea, study arcane tomes, discuss philosophy, go to the theatre, and ... bang rocks together to make sharper rocks, because hey! I may not ever use the sharper rocks I make, but it's another skill number to watch go up!
Debate whether that's a good reason or bad reason, but that was a large part of the decision to make it require a point. Although frankly, I think pretty much every crafting thing should require a point. I don't agree with the "these things are related and people taking one would likely take the other, so they should be combined" philosophy. The point of having ... points ... is so that you have to pick and choose, and people who do choose things can be more specialized and unique. The people who do invest a point in knapping can be happy knowing that they aren't just one of the hundred-and-eighty-seven-thousand knappers out there (99% of which don't even use their knapped products). And really, "bushcrafting" as a concept could be generalized to the point that it covers a whole slew of things that we could rationalize into a single ability by the "they're related activities" logic, and then it becomes an overpowered one-point-wonder.
If you don't think it's worth spending the point ... don't spend the point.
... you know, I bet a lot of people did knapping just to work off the depart penalties. Easily scriptable, 100% risk-free, abundant supply of raw materials, no tools or workshop required, the gain rate never diminished at higher skill ... huh. I think I may have just demystified a mystery.
The knapping quality cap is something I don't think I'll get into. I'd waffle too much, so I'll leave it to others to opine, debate, and fight the good fight.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:23 pm
by Kent
Lysse wrote:Jirato wrote:Show me a knapped knife that performs better than a forged one, IRL.
Knapping is mostly meant as a feature for those that would rather not deal with the luxury of city life and not have access to forges. It's never going to be better forging.
There's actually evidence to suggest that the Aztecs (if memory serves correctly) had specialized, unknown techniques for knapping, which allowed them to create obsidian edged weaponry that could perform on a much better level than modern knapped lithics.
That being said, I don't imagine most if any of the PCs in the Lost Lands would ever have knowledge of such a thing.
Well, they would/should if they spent the point on Knapping.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:32 pm
by Rias
I'd want to limit that to those specifically specialized and knowledgeable in such areas, akin to the concept of only Artisans knowing how to work and produce things like bloodglass and riversteel. The rare ability to produce superior knapped products that can compete a little better with forged metal products (but still ultimately be inferior) would be neat, but not if it was just out there for anyone for a single point and then people are like "wait, why am I wasting ability points as well as time mining and forging?"
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:34 pm
by Lysse
Kent wrote:Lysse wrote:Jirato wrote:Show me a knapped knife that performs better than a forged one, IRL.
Knapping is mostly meant as a feature for those that would rather not deal with the luxury of city life and not have access to forges. It's never going to be better forging.
There's actually evidence to suggest that the Aztecs (if memory serves correctly) had specialized, unknown techniques for knapping, which allowed them to create obsidian edged weaponry that could perform on a much better level than modern knapped lithics.
That being said, I don't imagine most if any of the PCs in the Lost Lands would ever have knowledge of such a thing.
Well, they would/should if they spent the point on Knapping.
I'll rephrase.
From a pure roleplay (non mechanical/coded) aspect, it is highly unlikely that the majority of any PCs in the Lost Lands would ever be able to develop the skills and techniques required for more advanced knapping. For a number of reasons, not limited to: guarded secrets, the fact that the most damaging weapons are typically made from volcanic glass and therefor not up to scratch with durability, they can't be repaired (arguably, a macuahuitl and other weapons the Aztecs used COULD be repaired, but in a different manner than forged weapons), and finally the majority of PCs come from civilizations that have largely progressed beyond the Stone Age and have materials available to them that are superior to stone weapons.
Even the more "tribal" PCs in the game currently just end up using metal weapons instead of stone the majority of the time, because of the benefit of metal versus stone. Which to me, is very telling regarding the mindset of the community. Which is to say: the majority of PCs in the game probably don't deserve to be able to learn something cool and special as an advanced knapping technique to increase the quality of knapped goods.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:45 pm
by Kent
Rias wrote:Knapping was a huge "I just do
it cause I can" thing, and that type of stuff always bugs me. Seriously, it was like everyone did it.
Why yes, I am a refined and haughty member of Rook Parlour! I drink tea, study arcae tomes, discuss philosophy, go t
o the theatre, and ... bang rocks together to make sharper rocks, because hey! I may not ever use the sharper rocks I make, but it's another skill number to go up
... you know, I bet a lot of people did knapping just to work off the depart penalties. Easily scriptable, 100% risk-free, abundant supply of raw materials, no tools or workshop required, the gain rate never diminished at higher skill ... huh. I think I may have just demystified a mystery.
ROTFL.
Well, Rias, you touched a nerve there. Admittedly, a few players who knew how to play a role never
touched knapping, like Ardor and likely Spearhead. But no way I can deny that Kent was not observed
banging together in chimpanzee-like fashion two rocks (or just about two of anything) if it
meant he could watch the numbers go up.
And I say this to my shame.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:04 pm
by Fayne
Yeah, I do agree most people probably did it just gor the hell of it. I actually tried to go the route of fitting it into my RP, but after discovering stone items have the durability of tissue paper, I realized that to use it effectively I'd have to stockpile huge amounts of material to replace broken items as necessary, and that's just not feasible. Once you actually start using knapping as an alternative to metal gear, those "abundant resources" turn into "where the hell can I find more?" fairly quickly. Couple that with the fact that you'll never get items better than whatever you can spend 50 riln or less on at a store, and it just falls short of being worth the trouble.
Now, that being said, I agree with Rias that all crafting skills should require a point. I'm of the mindset that everyone should be really, really good at that one thing they always do, pretty good at something else related to the thing they are best at, and horrible at most other things. I even extend this to combat, since you didn't see many warriors who could pick up whatever happened to be nearby at the time and kick ass with it. Someone who was amazing with daggers or a staff would be horrible with a heavy mace, for various reasons. The same principle applies vice versa. But, you know, that would create some very upset players, and I'm sure it'd be so unpopular that either it'd be reverted back within a few days or whined about for months afterward.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:05 pm
by preiman
that's the thing about martial arts, each one you learn makes the next all that much easier. using an axe and a staff may feel like different abilities and pools of knowledge, but there is a shocking amount of overlap.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:09 pm
by merin
woodworking was overlooked! :p
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:44 pm
by Fayne
Woodworking kinda goes hand-in-hand with knapping, since most people who use woodworking do so in order to make their own arrows and bows. Woodworking doesn't really have much of a use beyond that.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:24 am
by Dorn
To weigh in here, though rather late...
It is all nice and cool to have skills that fit roleplay purposes which currently knapping really is. I love that, and like the fact it is possible. What I don't like is when there are clear cut choices in terms of mechanics.
There really are already a ton of skills that people can easily use to work off death penalties, that shouldn't be a reason for a skill to cost an ability point unless you're going to require everything have an ability point. That may be the way you're going with things, but right now with the fact a lot currently don't it makes knapping stand out.
Mining and Woodworking. Two examples of skills that you can pretty much safely work away penalties with, requiring no skill in either of them. Both, I'd argue, also provide much more tangible benefits than knapping ever has. It wouldn't surprise me if there are more, but those are the two I'm familiar with so prefer to give.
As I said, you may end up requiring points for everything eventually in which case Knapping won't stand out as much and just be a RP-skill/choice skill alongside others but as of now I'm going to agree with everyone saying having a point just for it seems out of line.
Also, Fayne. Woodworking is very useful for hafts for weapons.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:16 am
by Fayne
I do wanna say that I enjoy having knapping as an option for RP purposes, but seriously, the disadvantages are so great that it is a worthless skill even for RP. I tried using my own handaxes and knives, and the durability is so low that even a copper dagger would last at least three or four times longer. Plus a copper dagger can go above average, giving you boosts to all of your rolls that include that item. Arrowheads aren't even worth it, since any arrows created from them will have their quality reduced if the shaft is above average quality. Knapping is really more of a hassle than a convenience, and even using it as an RP skill requires you to replace your tools nearly every third use. The only positive thing about knapping is you can finally use sinew to craft handaxes and spears and such, which means it's actually possible to be self-sufficient.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:57 am
by Rias
Fayne wrote:the disadvantages are so great that it is a worthless skill even for RP.
I really wish people would be mindful of throwing the W-word around. I'm going to assume what you said meant it's worthless
to you, and not in general. Anything can be considered personally "worthless" if you have no desire to use it. Abilities that are solely combat-useful are worthless to me - I'm fine just swinging a sword or firing a bow without all the fancy extra stuff. I like utility stuff. I'm not going to argue that combat abilities not cost a point on account of this "worthlessness", though, because they're useful and attractive to other people.
For what it's worth, I'm very happy with knapping with my PC that uses it. He uses his own stone weapons and tools, and occasionally arrows, to great effect (obsidian is amazing, if short-lived). Of course, I'm one of those people that isn't bothered by being a few percentiles behind the average in the numbers side of things, and I enjoy the concept of having to frequently maintain or replace equipment and all that survival-y stuff. To some people that
adds to the fun, rather than taking away. I know some other PCs that use knapped weapons and tools exclusively (people probably know who I'm talking about), and they seem pleased with it as well. I think if we've got some people using the stuff as their primary gear and not "just cause it's there so I can see skills go up" then things are okay - it doesn't have to be universally loved to be acceptable. Knapping was always
supposed to be a niche thing, and not a serious competitor with forging. Forging produces goods superior to knapped versions, no illusions otherwise. Working as intended.
It sounds like most people who are upset are so because the stone gear is inferior: It breaks quickly, it has a quality cap. That's always been the intent for stone weapons and tools, though - there's a reason peopled moved beyond the Stone Age. So you may ask: "Why spend a point on it if there's something else I could use instead that's better for me?" Why indeed. Don't spend the point on knapping if you find it personally worthless (especially if you find it worthless "even for RP"). Use the alternative that's more attractive to you. The power to choose is yours.
As mentioned, knapping has one advantage, and it's a huge one for a small but passionate group of people*, even if those people are few: It allows you to be 100% self-sufficient for tools and weapons in the wilderness.
* I'm not just talking about Dunwyr.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:04 pm
by merin
I'm curious. how would you be self-sufficient? How would you have your own armor and such, considering everywhere I know of requires a permit to leatherwork, or at least have access/desire to enter a city.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:09 pm
by Jaster
It allows you to be 100% self-sufficient for tools and weapons in the wilderness.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:10 pm
by Lysse
merin wrote:I'm curious. how would you be self-sufficient? How would you have your own armor and such, considering everywhere I know of requires a permit to leatherwork, or at least have access/desire to enter a city.
You don't need armor to survive. It's harder, but doable.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:45 pm
by Kent
merin wrote:I'm curious. how would you be self-sufficient? How would you have your own armor and such, considering everywhere I know of requires a permit to leatherwork, or at least have access/desire to enter a city.
.[/quote]
That's another thing I'm uncomfortable about, not being able to do leatherwork
in the wilderness. Stretch the pelt out on trees to tan. Use a large tree stump as a worktable.
I think any large table anywhere should be useable as a worktable, or that worktables should
be for sale. Tanning frames, because of the foul odors, should not be so ubiquitous.
I could understand using these ad hoc worktables meaning something like, your product quality
is about 10% worse than in a professional tannery.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:23 pm
by Rias
I've always wanted to be able to make crude tanning frames with a few large staves and some cordage (i.e. sinew). Same for tanning solution and ... whatever gross things go into that. (There are several yucky varieties).
I also like Kent's idea of improvised "worktables" at the risk of some quality loss, or even not requiring a "worktable" at all. In either case you'd need to have the correct tools, like an awl, a needle, and whatever else it is leatherworkers use. With crude craftable versions of all available, of course, i.e. stone awl, bone needle, and so forth - for those bushcrafters and survivalists.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:43 pm
by Fayne
I want to apologize for my phrasing in my previous post. Seems I was unwittingly channeling frustrations into my words.
I didn't mean to say that knapping is worthless. In fact, I use knapping myself, and enjoy being able to be so self sufficient. What I meant to say is the durability more than anything really frustrates me to the point of not wanting to use it at times. I'm also kinda frustrated that the best job at knapping creates an item that sounds like it could use improvement when examined, or even in the name of the item. If the durability is supposed to be so bad, then I guess I'll deal with it and just use metal for a time whenever I get frustrated with replacing my tools. But, maybe we could get the higher quality knapped items put back in? They don't have to give any bonuses, just make our work look nicer with skill. I believe this was actually how it used to be for a while before someone realized the better qualities were still there. Even if stone tools are inferior, there's a bit of pride in showing off the craftsmanship of a particularly fine item. And honestly, if you added the extra qualities back in with no mechanical benefit above average, I doubt anyone would even notice.
Re: Knapping needing an ability slot doesn't make much sense
Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:47 pm
by Kunren
Fayne wrote:I want to apologize for my phrasing in my previous post. Seems I was unwittingly channeling frustrations into my words.
I didn't mean to say that knapping is worthless. In fact, I use knapping myself, and enjoy being able to be so self sufficient. What I meant to say is the durability more than anything really frustrates me to the point of not wanting to use it at times. I'm also kinda frustrated that the best job at knapping creates an item that sounds like it could use improvement when examined, or even in the name of the item. If the durability is supposed to be so bad, then I guess I'll deal with it and just use metal for a time whenever I get frustrated with replacing my tools. But, maybe we could get the higher quality knapped items put back in? They don't have to give any bonuses, just make our work look nicer with skill. I believe this was actually how it used to be for a while before someone realized the better qualities were still there. Even if stone tools are inferior, there's a bit of pride in showing off the craftsmanship of a particularly fine item. And honestly, if you added the extra qualities back in with no mechanical benefit above average, I doubt anyone would even notice.
I don't care about the durability personally, but I agree 100 percent with the quality cap being lifted even if higher qualities don't have even a single bit more bonus. It just feels wrong to
me that a master stone carver can't make anything better looking than a journeyman, even though they will always be mechanically inferior(as they should be) cutting the quality cap to help do that makes me sad. So to sum up I guess, plus one to the remove quality cap suggestion with the extra detail of quality over average not giving any bonuses.