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when going into a guild to ask about initiation it would be helpful if you could ask about info or hq or perhaps where the guildermaster is incase there isn't a player on to show you the ropes it would be particularly useful for those guilds that arnt really supposed to be asked about on the esp and don't have many players

Well, usually the ones that aren't supposed to be talked about publicly can't be joined by just walking up to a random NPC and asking about initiation, and even the ones that do still require a bit of RP to get to them (which is still wrong IMO. I think all the hidden guilds should be RP-only for initiation). So, really, the only time I could ever see this being a problem is if you're online reeeeeeaaaaaaaally late at night, like 3 or 4 in the morning on a Wednesday or something.

I'm a little bit torn about this.

Sometimes I would like to know where other guild trainers are and general guild-specific locations are.

Then on the other hand, sometimes getting the information through RP and interraction is nice. It's a good way to find fellow guilders and learn information that a guild master wouldn't be inclined to mention through automated conversation.

Well, also, if you think about it, a lot of the secret organizations would probably not let just any new recruit know where everyone and everything was.

Fayne wrote:Well, also, if you think about it, a lot of the secret organizations would probably not let just any new recruit know where everyone and everything was.

That's pretty likely.

but for the main guilds I don't see why the recruiter wouldn't tell you where to find things or atleast refer you to someone

valmorian wrote:but for the main guilds I don't see why the recruiter wouldn't tell you where to find things or atleast refer you to someone

Well, like I said, there should almost always be someone else on who can answer these questions for you.

Also, as to why the recruiters wouldn't there are a few explainations:
1) Most of the main guilds are pretty common knowledge as to where their headquarters are located.
2) I'm fairly sure the majority of guilds require you to be in or near at least one of their main facilities in order to be recruited.
3) These are NPCs we are talking about, specifically recruiters. They have a lot more to do than just stand there waiting for new recruits. I think it's reasonable to say that they'd run off to go start the paperwork needed to officially make you a member, and then the paperwork has to get there ahead of you, so the best thing to do would be let you find someone else to tell you where the facilities and guildmasters are so that you don't show up and they go "Who the hell are you?"

valmorian wrote:when going into a guild to ask about initiation it would be helpful if you could ask about info or hq or perhaps where the guildermaster is incase there isn't a player on to show you the ropes it would be particularly useful for those guilds that arnt really supposed to be asked about on the esp and don't have many players

jilliana wrote:

Fayne wrote:Well, also, if you think about it, a lot of the secret organizations would probably not let just any new recruit know where everyone and everything was.

That's pretty likely.

I think valmorians request from an accessibility point of view makes sense.

And while it makes sense for some guilds or cities to require roleplay to gain entry, I have to ask myself what is the intended purpose and is there any unintended effects of this choice in mechanics?

We have this issue with a lack of bad actors to create conflict, and I sometimes wonder if its the hoops we have artificially created for a person to jump through to start down that path. Is it only coincidence that there is a lack of players on the 'bad guy side' that just so happens to have less accessibility and possibility for inclusion?

What is the goal? Are we creating these 'roleplay' entry only guilds so that people aren't creating characters to infiltrate them and gain knowledge they shouldn't normally have?

Does the problem really lie with nature of the guild, or does it lie with the fact that we don't want tons of alternate characters in guilds exclusive to a certain style of play?

Are we trying to solve for symptoms and not the true cause of a problem?

Well, not all role play only entry guilds are "bad" either.

Kunren wrote:Well, not all role play only entry guilds are "bad" either.

I have limited knowledge on most guilds but my own, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the monks the only non "bad" organization (guild/city) that needs rp/gm approval?

That's not really my main point, though.

baerden wrote:I have limited knowledge on most guilds but my own, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the monks the only non "bad" organization (guild/city) that needs rp/gm approval?

That's not really my main point, though.

Monks are also the only 'good' organization (guild/city), everything else are shades of gray.

baerden wrote:

Kunren wrote:Well, not all role play only entry guilds are "bad" either.

I have limited knowledge on most guilds but my own, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the monks the only non "bad" organization (guild/city) that needs rp/gm approval?

That's not really my main point, though.

They aren't in fact, I can think of at least one more. And speaking a bit more on topic... I can see your point I think. It's alot harder to be a bad character in clok than a good one, especially a SUCCESSFUL bad character. Secretive guilds are just one of the points of some of the more antagonistic characters problems. But... I think it's more fun that way. People who go against the grain for good or ill will almost always have a hard time, even irl. It's working through that to play anyway that makes it worth it :D

Kunren wrote:They aren't in fact, I can think of at least one more. And speaking a bit more on topic... I can see your point I think. It's alot harder to be a bad character in clok than a good one, especially a SUCCESSFUL bad character. Secretive guilds are just one of the points of some of the more antagonistic characters problems. But... I think it's more fun that way. People who go against the grain for good or ill will almost always have a hard time, even irl. It's working through that to play anyway that makes it worth it :D

Why do you need to be part of a secret or RP locked Guild to play an Antagonist?

What if the RP locked guild you're trying to join is barely populated and you can't find anyone to tell you about it?

Barius wrote:What if the RP locked guild you're trying to join is barely populated and you can't find anyone to tell you about it?

That might be something you want to e-mail the staff about, then, I'd imagine.

Barius wrote:What if the RP locked guild you're trying to join is barely populated and you can't find anyone to tell you about it?

Secrets aren't secret if everybody shouts me out~ it may not be the most newbie friendly thing, but you can find out lots with a bit of investigation here and there.

Lysse wrote:

Barius wrote:What if the RP locked guild you're trying to join is barely populated and you can't find anyone to tell you about it?

That might be something you want to e-mail the staff about, then, I'd imagine.

well that is kind of the point. so a guild isn't populated enough to have people help you does that mean we should all have are characters killed and because there is no one to ask for assistance? that doesn't seem quite right if someone does the hard towk to get into an rp guild then who is to say that they cant be in it because there is no one to ask for help

valmorian wrote:

Lysse wrote:

Barius wrote:What if the RP locked guild you're trying to join is barely populated and you can't find anyone to tell you about it?

That might be something you want to e-mail the staff about, then, I'd imagine.

well that is kind of the point. so a guild isn't populated enough to have people help you does that mean we should all have are characters killed and because there is no one to ask for assistance? that doesn't seem quite right if someone does the hard towk to get into an rp guild then who is to say that they cant be in it because there is no one to ask for help

Er, who said anything about having the character killed? The debate was more how to deal with it, and Lysse's answer to that seems reasonable.

valmorian wrote:

Lysse wrote:

Barius wrote:What if the RP locked guild you're trying to join is barely populated and you can't find anyone to tell you about it?

That might be something you want to e-mail the staff about, then, I'd imagine.

well that is kind of the point. so a guild isn't populated enough to have people help you does that mean we should all have are characters killed and because there is no one to ask for assistance? that doesn't seem quite right if someone does the hard towk to get into an rp guild then who is to say that they cant be in it because there is no one to ask for help

If the issue you're having is a lack of IC backup and support, then yes that can be frustrating. The best way to alleviate that, is to pick and choose your battles carefully (even if you're a zealot, unless you're okay OOCly with losing), be subtle and sneaky about the wickedness you get up to (including not talking about it OOCly to anyone), and by trying to form IC alliances.

The third part is tricky, but very possible. It all depends on your PC's cause, and how your PC goes about approaching people, or even who they approach.

the people you no and people who like you doesn't really help the fact that there is no one around in a guild to help you find where your guilds things are

There are people you can contact or get in touch with. Just be careful how you do it and what you say if using the mail system. Despite its lack of security, mail is one of the best ways to contact guild veteran characters to help. If you find out who you need to contact through RP then that may be a good option for you.

Not all characters need a guild. there are -many- old players who never joined a guild. With generalization i think you will see a lot more of it. if your trying to find guild recruiters, check out the recruiters wiki page. Joining guilds that are rp to enter are suppose to be difficult to join, its part of the fun and mystery of the game. So many make new characters just to join guilds, its hard to keep any mystery in them. its why i have decided to keep a few secrets from casual people joining my guilds. prove to me your serious and you get to see them. i always put the same idea into the harder to join guilds (should they exsist!)

Never doubt that some people are just crazy folks claiming all kinds of crazy things. In any case, show dedication to your character for a good length of time and perhaps you will see progress. i doubt (though i have no direct say) that ever will those guilds just be open to the public. I have personally seen some of the "conflict" guilds opened wide as ive come to the conclusion that if you didnt feel like you earn it, the chances of you sticking around arent all that good. why let everyone know everything? where would the suspense come from?

Tip on using the mail system: Don't tell a post worker that you'd like to send mail to people who have, or are heavily linked with, wreaking significant levels of trouble or destruction on the post office's place of origin. They're prrrrrobably going to find that to be a teensy bit fishy.

valmorian wrote:well that is kind of the point. so a guild isn't populated enough to have people help you does that mean we should all have are characters killed and because there is no one to ask for assistance? that doesn't seem quite right if someone does the hard towk to get into an rp guild then who is to say that they cant be in it because there is no one to ask for help

'Hard Work' does not necessarily mean working with other players. The RP to gain access to a RP restricted Guild with with staff, normally with that Guild's Guru. As for 'Assistance', every guild is possible to be played alone, without aid some anyone else and still be reasonable with just about every single guild ability with in. Having someone assist you in learning how to optimally use a Guild's abilities is a bonus, not a requirement. Everyone starts somewhere, you have the tools to start your own road freely.

I wasn't talking about abilities I was talking about where the headquarters are and the services