CLOK BBS

Hello everyone,

As many of you know I have come across the miss fortune of applying for the Templar Guild at the point when it was under reconstruction, and although, it is extremely frustrating at times—and believe me I know I am a complainer—it has really given me time to see what makes Lavi who he is. I will first admit, when I had started this whole process, I thought it would be easy. I have come to know with subtle amusement and somewhat annoyance that it's not. However, because of the restructuring, It has made me see that Jilliana, Lae, Gad, and other characters in the monastic orders are important. I've noticed that the fact that they are good people IC makes all the difference. it is easy to force doing good things which I admit at first I was doing the least bit possible but because I've had to decide, "do I wait?" is what has allowed me to really commit.

Anyway, my idea was to maybe structure an apprenticeship for new Templars and Templar hopefuls. I've kind of in a sense have been working under Jill as an RP sort of thing, and it is not only encouraging but very helpful to see how Templars should strive to be, as well as learn their role in combat, and in the church. Also, it allowed me to become adjusted to the RP stuff that is really needed for those guilds. I’m not sure how it would work, but I think it has been very useful in teaching me a lot of things. Not to mention, it’s hard to force being nice when you have someone watching you all the time. I know the GM’s do but still this makes it even harder. If I thought that the process of being judged by your future guild members could work without getting screwed up by OOC stuff, I’d totally think that would be a good idea. But, that type of thing tends to get messy. Still I’d like to know what everyone thinks, because the experience I’ve had playing this out has been very enjoyable.

Lavi

Squires sound like a great idea.

i like that idea. for one it might give hopefuls an idea of what will be expected of them while at the same time getting them mechanically ready for the duties of a Templar. I have no doubt my Templar aspirant would benefit from such a situation. let me add something, if we do implement a squire system, perhaps it should be the Templars themselves that choose or reject applicants after a suitable training period. so what you would really be applying for is the squireship. or even one step further which would take a little of the ownness off the players is to institute a guild for church applicants this guild would give out tasks, and award reputation like any other, but would not offer any actual benefit except to prove ones worthiness. perhaps the guild points could be spent to aply for the monks or Templars, at witch point my earlier suggestion of the church choosing their own members would come back into play. the oone downside to this that i see, and i am sure there are more, is that it would have to be a guild you could leave, or be kicked out of, without loosing the ability to go for another guild. I just don't know if that is something that is mechanically viable.

I really do like the idea of offering the opportunity for Templar hopefuls to experience what their jobs will be within the church, guild tasks, etc etc if accepted. However, after a few minutes of contemplation, I say to keep it roleplay only. Making something like this official, although neat, would do as follows:

* Instead of helping someone out of the kindness of my heart, it'll turn into work

* It'd give a Templar hopeful the impression if they become "squire", they can then easy breezy their way through the interview without having had to develop their character for the guild other than the tasks they did following an experienced Templar around

* By remaining "solo" a Templar hopeful could then be seen in a more realistic light. True personality and intent come out eventually, but by spending some time not depending on the church and experienced Templar, they are more able to find ways to develop their characters and be true to them

As I said before, it's a great idea, but it's good the way it is. A Templar hopeful can better take the initiative and seek people out if he or she feels that they need the support. Anyone interested eventually learns to seek out Jilliana or any other member of the church for that matter. Taking the initiative also provides with a good opportunity to see how truly one is interested instead of all but handing it to them on a gold platter without they actually doing much work.

Now, if it were for new Templar, I'd be all for it. Jilliana is still struggling with learning things about the Knight's Templar that would have been really nice to know from the beginning. For instance, learning how to do certain tasks a bit better...among other things. Yes, learning things via informal RP can be interesting, but a bit awckward if someone assumes you know something and you're put on the spot because it's something they assumed another Templar told you.
Even so, if it were to even happen, it'd be great if it wasn't truly "official" but a means to encourage initiative, teamwork and not to mention some great roleplay.

I agree with Jill about having a specific guild. I think we want to avoid tasks and things that make people just put in their lot and when they get accepted say, “well now I’m done. I’ve made it through the apprenticeship and I can stop trying to be good.” It eventually would put us back in the same problem we’re in right now. Rather, it would be something maybe like the mentor system in clok but perhaps more specific to the Templar guild. Dealing with specific help and knowledge with the Monastic orders. I didn’t want this to be necessarily mechanic in the sense that now a person can get tasks to prove they are useful as a Templar since that would under cut the lore behind Thaumaturgy. It would be like saying, “let me prove I have inner-light. I’ve done all these good things and I am worthy of being Templar,” which is what we are trying to avoid. Rather, it would be nice, if any mechanic were implamented, that it would be something saying hey these are the applicants, and this othergroup are people who you should get to know. The qualifier for this sort of mentor status would maybe be a good grasp of thaumaturgy, general knowledge of tasks, willingness to help others, etc. They should also play the Templar as it should be played.
Jilliana has pointed out that it would be good to keep this an IC thing and that is cool, but considering you don’t want to go shouting, “Templar, looking for student,” or the other way around, this sort of mechanic might help in a way. Plus you’d kind of expect to know who recently has applied. Just a continuation of our brainstorm we’ve developed.

I've been on other games where promotions are based on skills and the votes of the guild's members, and certain assigned tasks.
It felt like work.
It was really nice sometimes, but with a small playerbase, it was next to impossible, and my priestess became such largely on her own, without any mentoring. And when she did find things out, it was without help from her church family, because either nobody was around to help instruct her, or the people actively playing were still cleric, which was the rank below priestess.

Suffice it to say, several years of amazing RP, but oh my gosh it was hard at times, and I admit I have somewhat of an aversion to the idea of a game being work.
I could see some tasks and other mentorship being added to enrich the hopeful's experience, and in some ways, I understood the structured system I described above because it was so structured. But at other times, I found certain limitations put on my char to be stifling. I'm glad Clok doesn't have equipment, weapon, and/or skill cap requirements for its guilds!!! You can play a char who isn't necessarily exactly like the char next to you. Different strengths, weaknesses, good and bad qualities.

I'd like to propose some type of mentorship, but loosely so that it's not a huge time-consuming commitment. And perhaps an alternative solution in case no player chars are around to help in the RP.

I'm mostly just tossing ideas out there, because I don't have them well-formulated yet. Feel free to use or discard; I won't be offended.

I don't like the idea of doing anything officially/mechanically. In the end, the Monastic Order or Knights Templar will contact someone they feel is appropriate. Feel free to make your desires known, I'm not trying to discourage that. There just won't be an official squireship mechanic, or a temporary investigation/trial guild. How you go about seeking to prepare or prove yourself is up to you. Squireship is really cool, for any Templar or Monk willing to take on a squire/acolyte, but I wouldn't say it should be the only way. Do whatever you can think of to make your character stand out as an appropriate fit for a thaumaturge. I might go so far as providing some examples if people really need them, but a part of me really hopes people would have some ideas of their own as to what they might do.

Remember that the foundation upon which everything thaumaturgic is built is Compassion.
Other traits required are Humility, Modesty, Discipline, Respect, Patience, and Tolerance.
Some traits that will bar you: Arrogance, Pride, Avarice, Bloodlust, Hate, Mistrust (of your fellow man), Envy
Another very important thing for your character to have is the sincere desire to have all the good traits listed above. We aren't looking for people who are just trying for the bare minimum, or are obviously going to try and toe the line and be that "cool, rebellious, edgy guy who has a heart of gold buried somewhere deep within". If you're that guy, then you still have some work to do before you should expect to be wielding thaumaturgy. This isn't to say thaumaturges are expected to be perfect: Nobody is. The key is that you strive to possess all the above traits wholly, rather than thinking, "Hmph, I guess I HAVE to be compassionate, cause it's the only way I'll be able to cast sweet heals and lightspears, but I'm not gonna be happy about it." Think about it: that doesn't even make sense. That's not being compassionate, that's pretending to be compassionate just so you can get what you want. The player can think this way (though honestly, I think that situation is just an accident waiting to happen), but you'd better not let that manifest through your character.

Obviously, this stuff is really hard for GMs to judge. Occasionally we may even judge wrongly! Feel free to try and explain yourself, but you'll likely just have to take it as an oddity of the different world/universe in which your character is living. I'm not going to sit and debate philosophy with someone over the justifications they have for whatever they did that might have gotten them some thaumaturgic penalty. Also keep in mind, there may well be more to thaumaturgy, and having access to it, than what the people of the CLOK world know. "Why did this happen? Why has it suddenly become harder for me to wield thaumaturgy? I didn't do anything wrong!" Good question. Do your best to reflect on it and make changes about any suspicions you might have. Take counsel with your peers. It's not always going to be spelled out for you or make sense to you (the NPCs don't have all the answers, either). That may sound unfair, but that's the way it is.

The depressing thing to me is that this all has to be said and judged in the first place - in my naivete, when I first introduced the Monastic Order and Knights Templar, I thought it would be a given that people who wanted to join would naturally be characters that strove to be this way, given the explanation of how Thaumaturgy works, and the organization and goals of the Church of Light. Unfortunately, it appears many people simply wanted in for the sweet powers and to be able to self-heal in combat, with no cares about the fundamentals of Thaumturgy and required character traits.

"Good grief, Rias! Chill out, it's just a game!" You're right. It's a roleplaying game. This isn't WoW. If you're worried about stats and combat awesomeness and being supercool healy powerguy, but think all the above stuff about compassion and and humility and modesty is just silly/nonsense/over-the-top, do us all a favor and don't even attempt to join one of these organizations. It's not fun dealing with people who join up for a guild, only to express none of the traits or behaviors required by that guild, because they just wanted the cool abilities. It's even less fun to argue with players about how they want to be in the guild, but think the roleplay requirements/restrictions are stupid. You know what? You're fine to think they're stupid. Guess who's in charge? I am. You're not going to win this battle. Not willing to play by the rules of the Monastic Order or Knights Templar? Then pack your bags. I'm not changing the fundamentals of a metaphysical force (thaumaturgy) and two of my favorite organizations (Knights Templar and Monastic Order) just because you think it's too hard or too stupid and just want to play the super cool knight/healer anyway, "come on man, it's just a game." Sorry.

"Rias, this is totally going to make nobody want to be a Monk or Templar anymore." I doubt that, though I suspect interest and membership may take a significant hit. Even if everyone thought it was too judgmental/restricting/hardcore/whatever and we ended up with no PCs in these guilds ... so be it. I'd be okay with that. I'd also be a little depressed about the implications.

I'm totally edgy.

As a person who is playing a monk, I'm actually glad to see some of the reform going on. and I agree with something Rias said in his post above. Something about if yo uwant to be totally combative, don't play someone who wants to join the monks or Templar. I actually have createdother characters for those times that I want to have them go beating up on infested creatures. Now that I'm starting to play around with my mercenary for example, I'm re-realizing how fun it is to do that sort of thing. Far and away, my monk is still my favorite character to play, but if I want to fight things ... as I've said in character as Keah, I don't go looking for trouble with her. OOCly I'll bring on my merc for that, or to some extent even my Udemi. I say cheers to Rias for wanting to reform the guilds of the Church of Light! I think it's a crying shame it's had to come to it though that Rias has had to resort to it because we have some who make it look like they don't want to play the character out the way they should be played out, so good on you Rias! I agree with others though who have said that training of a hopeful monk or Templar should be done ICly, and that there should not be mechanics built in for them to get that training up. As has been stated by others, and is thought by myself, it would just show that they just want the cool stuff rather than to play their characters out. If I'm not making any sense, just tell me to buzz off, unlike some I won't take offense to that, but there it is. Off to eat some more turkey bacon while a 4 and a half month old let me ... hahaha.

Cindy A.K.A. Keah, Naomi, Deborah, Hannah, priscilla

Jaster wrote:I'm totally edgy.

If this is a contest, I'm totally edgier. Humility, sir. Humility.