registering items - some thoughts and ideas

[Karasi]

We gathered round from our respective computers, and chatter over OOC about what we would and would not like to see with the new registery system coming into play.
Of course, none of us know right now how it will work, but perhaps some of these ideas will spark interest.

(As seen in-game:
"Register" (09/12/13)
There are upcoming changes to the register command. These changes won't go live until 9-16 at the earliest. You can find more information on the bbs:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3055

(Our conversation)

[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: I'm kinda excited for the new registering system to go live.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Not me. I wish we could have had something implemented in

addition to what we have already, rather than changing it. just my oppinion, though.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Well, I think registering would be better if you had to

re-register your items every so often.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Again, no.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: :P
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: That's actually a pretty good idea Drayla..
[OOC - Clayton]: why in the world would you register an item multiple times.. over a

period of time
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Cuz I found a good example of registering gone bad.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Noooo.
[OOC - Clayton]: heck no
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Please no.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Because I found a donated item in the crate in Shadgard that

had been registered.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Not to be a pest or anything, but ...
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Registering should remain free but wear off after a time.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Oh man. Well... I think things should be donated, and once in

that crate, lose their registered status, if it was donated by the person it was registered

to. If it was registered to someone else, the person trying to donate it shouldn't be

allowed to.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: But I do like changing registering to needing a specialist to

recover items of you leave them.
[OOC - Clayton]: I'm not going to pay .. let's say, 5000 riln to register an item.. and

then like, a month or two goes by, and my time for the registration expires and I gotta fork

out another 5000 riln to re-register an item I already registered once.
[OOC - Clayton]: and then multiply that by however many items I need to register
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: That's why I say it should remain free.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: And keep the specialist because it keeps the wild

clutter-free.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: And gives us a way to retrieve items that were accidentally

lost.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Unfortunately, as long as people are registering nearly every item that

they come in contact with so that the server slows down when the roomsaver runs because it

has to keep track of dozens of registered and hidden items...it's just not prudent for us to

keep the system as it is. Changes are going to have to be made.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Only time will tell what those changes will be.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Then I say make it cost 200 riln.
[OOC - Clayton]: Yes I can agree that it wil cut down on database bloat and all that...

that's an issue with every game.. but if the cost of registering an item exceeds the actual

cost of the item.. I'll suffer the loss of that item rather than spending a fortune to keep

it permanent.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Not so expensive repeated registry is a pain, but registry of

simple items is discouraged.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: And I agree with Karasi that certain actions should get the

item un-registered.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: In my oppinion, certain items when dropped should not vanish

on principle. Trunks, chests, barrles. I picture these as large items. If a theoretical

person in the area were to haul off with something that large, it'd be obvious, I'd think.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: But there are supposedly scavengers in the wild.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I'm kind of going back on that to say that int he wilderness,

it makes a littl emore sense, but seems less likely someone would stumble upon it. The roads

being far more traveled than the untamed wilds.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: They'd be willing to take anything.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Possible, but rare.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I don't think so. I don't picture the wilderness as being

heavily traveled. It's a dangerous world out there. Now, the city makes more sense.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: I don't know, any solution that significantly cleans up the

Gad's performance will make at least some players unhappy, and something that makes the

players happy will not clean up the system enough to make much of a difference.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Yeah... there's that balance between database bloat and

losing items far too easily. I've lost things before, pouches, when I wasn't allowed in

Shadgard. That was awkward, because I had to get help to get new ones, since you can't buy

them anywhere else. But barrels shouldn't disappear. Trunks, imho. Chests depending on their

size. They should work like furniture, I feel.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: But if you drop tiny things, then of course they should

vanish, even the pouches I lost, heheh
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: About my re-registering idea: I know it would be a pain to

continually register things. But what if a cost of needing a specialist to find it is

needing to register it again once it is retrieved.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: That wouldn't be a bad thing.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: The issue that we have with most things is that there is always someone

who will take advantage of any situation and use it to their advantage. Sometimes to the

point where it comes out our attention and we see the need for change. This is going to

happen with many different systems, not just register. We're listening to your ideas, but

this discussion would be seen by the people who need to see it if it were on the forums.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Then it is only an issue if you don't keep track of your

"valuable" belongings.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: But, I'd vote for ever six months, not every single month.

Something a little longer. Maybe two months if six is too long.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I'll log this discussion and post it to the forums, then. I

don't mind.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Good idea Karasi.

[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I know that there are people who will take advantage of many,

many things. I admit I feel frustrated when those of us who don't are the ones who suffer

for the abuse of the system by others who just don't care. This happens everywhere.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Register is like insurance. There really is no magical way in the world

that is going to keep your items safe. The items you register should be things that are

expensive and dear to you and if something happens a specialist will track it down because

you paid the fee for registering.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: I doubt there will be any sort of recurring payment, but there is going

to have to be a payment.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Yeah, lantern registering shouldn't be happening.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Then again, neither should lantern theft, but some people will

take anything and everything.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Registering things that should be janitored because they are not

valuable nor useful shouldn't be happening either.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: But it does.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Can we have examples?
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: I'm curious as to what crazy things have been registered.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Boxes, socks, food, scraps, debris...
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: :P
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Really? Some people will register anything.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Boxes are the worst, once you pick it and get the treasure, it needs to

go away - there are too many boxes generated daily for us to have them registered and

sitting around.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: that's insane...
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Another item? Broadhead arrows.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: That would suck.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Why would you register those?
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: hmm.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Those things get continually lost anyway, why register them?
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: I don't try to figure out why people do things, I just help the DEVs

come to a solution when it comes to our attention.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I think only certain items should be registered. Jewelry,

trunks, large or expensive things.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: But it takes more coding to prevent than to discourage.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: If I could figure out why people would register everything they got

their hands on, I'd fid that.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Fix too.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Oh I don't blame you.
[OOC - Faylen]: I suspect the reason people registeer arrows is so that they don't go away

while you're heading up when you have to retreat from being surrounded
[OOC - Faylen]: healing up
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: They don't disappear THAT quickly.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I think there should be a list of registerable items. Trunks,

chests, jewelry items, really expensive clothing. Perhaps one wagon or handcart to your

name.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Depending on how far away you are, and how hard it is to get

back, they can.
[OOC - Faylen]: they sure do, I've lost a lot that way
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Think of all of our systems like the scale that justice holds. We have

to keep a balance, that's one of our biggest jobs.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: It makes a kind of sense, but I would request, in place of

registering arrows, making their disappear time longer, for player-made arrows.
[OOC - Faylen]: I just make more... But yeah, they do vanish pretty quick when you're

trying to heal up
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: I think we should just see how the new system works out before

we all start fretting about it.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: I doubt wagons and handcarts will ever be "property" as you can return

them to the store for money. Wagon/handcart theft is also RP in a sense.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: I agree with handcarts and wagons never being "owned"
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Not everyone plays goody two-shoes characters, and the

frustration of stolen items is just something that is unavoidable.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I'm worried, but I always worry about changes like this. But

I am curious how it will work.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Oh yeah, another issue I have is with people putting

horribly-made or crudely-made things in the donation crates.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: I think anything of lesser quality than average should be

rejected or auto-cleaned from the crates.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Back in my day (old lady voice) I cleaned out the crate and thanked my

lucky stars that I had one!
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Well, I can speak to some of that. Sometimes, you just need

something for on-the-go. You are broke and don't have money. If you put exquisite things in

that crate, there would be so many people taking who didn't need that the new players or

char who do need them wouldn't have access. They'd all be gone.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: I clean out the crates whenever I see bad items in them.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I think exquisite, well-crafted, etc, would be asking for

someone to take the good and leave the crumbs for the newbies. So, how should this be

balanced?
[OOC - Faylen]: when I first started, I grabbed a malformed knife out of there because I

wanted a knife, any knife
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I don't know. I have some ideas, but one of them I hate

because it would affect longer-standing chars.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: One idea: make the crate so that you can't dig into it after

a certain number of hours played, or some other defining factor. What would suck, then, is

that older chars couldn't have access. Though maybe that'd be the whole point...
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Just like the better quality items add 5, 10, and 15%
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: How would you explain that ICly?
[OOC - Faylen]: I wouldn't want them totally restricted like that, not with this

playerbase, anyway... If we got bigger, then definitely
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I'm really not sure.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: And I agree, Faylen, I wouldn't want them restricted like

that, but it was all I could think of.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: I'm just tired of the donation crates becoming everyone's

trashcans. That's not what the donation crates are for.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I kind of feel guilty because i've done some of that, though

I've tried not to.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Only with arrow shafts, in case anyone who was bad at

fletching wanted to practice.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: See, bad-quality materials I don't see as a bad thing
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Since people can use them to build skills.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: I like your idea of making it so that anything below average

gets rejected.
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: Not rejected, but cleaned out. That makes more sense ICly.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: But that still leaves the question of exquisite items.
[OOC - (a mysterious GM)]: And what about players who want to RP as homeless bums? They

will need stuff from that crate.
[OOC - Ardor ze Svindler]: you want to buy some exquisite items Karasi? I got good prices!

And a sale going on
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Homeless bums. Now that's an idea...
[OOC - Drayla the Forager]: You know what I like the donation crates for? Collecting

character starting equipment, especially containers.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Actually, Ardor, you just answered my question... Maybe

exquisite items could not be put in the crate. But then, we're back to how to explain that

ICly.
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Well it's up to the players what goes into the crate, and it is also up

to you guys what you don't clean out of the crate. There will likely not be any code added

to do that job for you.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Sounds fair to me.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Except, for preventing bloat, my concern would be, say,

someone going nuts and putting 100 horribley formed knives in there. Then what?
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: So at this point, any and all items can be registered once

the changes take effect, even the extremely common ones like socks and lockboxes?
[OOC - Ardor ze Svindler]: I would take them all, smelt them and have material for 50

knives
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Right now all items can be registered but once the changes go through

you will need to reregister your items and pay for it.
[OOC - Karasi the Finisher]: Will we be told how much it'll cost to register, or will we

find out then?
[OOC - SGM Zoiya]: Like any change or addition it will be announced and in the changelog.

We give you all as much information as we can.

[Rias]

Thanks for posting this, it's good to see what people are thinking.

Regarding items being lost/disappearing in the wilderness: Yes, it's a dangerous place, and most civilized folk avoid it and stick to the roads. However, there are quite a lot of outcasts, brigands, infested, canim, and other people that do wander the wilderness (they're largely the ones making it dangerous in the first place!) and they are absolutely thrilled to come upon caches of unguarded supplies ripe for the taking. For instance, let's say you place a trunk of food out in the wilderness at your favorite camping spot. Sure, it's probably not going to blow away on the wind, but you can bet the first scavenger to spot it is going to scoop it up and count themselves fortunate.

Regarding pricing for registration: It will likely be fairly high, certainly more than, say, 100 riln. I'm also tempted to put a cap on it, or increase the price at certain thresholds. ICly, it's the registration service people making their money. OOCly, it's preventing the issue that brought this change on in the first place: People registering hoards and hoards of items just because they can, many of them completely worthless and/or easily replaced. You should only register things that you would find very difficult to replace, i.e. rare items or items with significant sentimental value. Registering all your ammunition just so it won't disappear if you leave it untended? That's not what register is for, and defeats the purpose of the janitor mechanic. Don't even ask how much ammunition is out there right now. Registering all your loot boxes? I still have no idea why people are doing that, but it basically leaves us with ever-increasing piles of useless trash that bog down the system. Registering all your weapons and armor? Unless they're unique in some way, why bother? If your greaves get lost, go buy a new set at the store (or better yet, have Ardor make you a nice replacement!).

Registration should not just be used to say "this is mine" to your whole inventory. It should only be used on items that you would be willing to pay a high fee to have initially registered and again to be replaced if it were to be lost. When you buy a new pair of sneakers or cool T-shirt with your Hogwarts House crest on it (Go Slytherin!), do you take a bunch of photos, store the receipt in a safety deposit box, take the name of the store where you bought it and the clerk who sold it to you, write your name on it in permanent marker, look for serial codes and anything else that you could write down so that you could, with great effort and expense, track the item down were it to be lost? I sure wouldn't, and if YOU would - well, then you should be willing to pay a high fee to do the equivalent here in CLOK via the registration mechanic.

Regarding leaving items in the wilderness: While I agree that people who steal stuff are buttheads, it's a perfectly valid course of action for them to take. The wilderness should never be considered safe or secure for means of storage, even places that seem very out-of-the way. I'm not trying to say this as a "screw you" to people who have had their stuff taken, so please don't take it that way. It happens quite frequently - it's even happened to one of my suuuuuuper secret alt characters that I play from time to time. I'm just trying to warn people that leaving stuff in the wilderness is never a good idea if it's something you would be even moderately disappointed to lose. Even hiding things doesn't make it safe - there are people who like to explore and search all over the place, and your stuff will be found eventually.

[Rias]

Other points:

I do kind of like the idea of having to occasionally pay a nominal fee to renew an item's registration, just so items don't stay registered for all eternity after someone has, say, donated the item, given it to someone else, or left the game. If you only notice 6 months later that your super sentimental friendship bracelet has gone missing, too bad. It couldn't have been that sentimental if it took you that long to notice it was missing.

Crate restrictions/regulation: Nope, the crates are there to be used by the people however the people see fit, and the people are therefore required to manage the crates themselves. If you think it's cluttered, feel free to take out the trash items and throw them in the trash barrel. I'm not sure what the capacity limits are on them, so I'll check that. Don't want to suffer bogdowns because someone decided to put the 672 malformed rudises they were practicing on in the crate instead of in the barrel. It bugs me when people do that, too. If I ever catch someone at it, don't be surprised if a grumpy NPC comes after them or something.

Also, I believe some people are registering items just so they can't be pawned. This will change as well - the pawnbrokers will buy registered items, but they'll be likely to be quickly available for return to the rightful owner (for a fee, of course). Example of the point of the registration system.

[xavier]

I have some questions about register and item/janitor interaction and I'm not going to make any assumptions so some of these questions might seem lame.
1. will a non-registered item disappear if you are in the room with it? anywhere, at anytime, or any item as special cases?
2. is there a time limit to how long an item will be pilfered by some unseen npc once you leave the room? can I drop my trunk in the leather working room while I make a purchase in the leather shop without worry that the 2 minutes I'm gone someone will snatch it?
3. should someone unregister an item before throwing it away or destroying it or is that code in place to erase the registration with the item destruction?
4. Will the pawn shop owner go out of his way to say send you mail if someone pawns a registered item to you or will he say something to the effect when you enter his shop/ ask for a list of wares?
5. Will a registered container "protect" items left in it?
6. Are there plans to create a perishable code? i.e. food crops left in a wagon going bad after a time based on environment.
7. if perishable code is added, will there be a preserve code added to counteract or extend the perishable time? i.e. dried meat lasts a long time but regular old cooked meat doesn't.(this could be worked into skewering over a campfire for smoking/drying)
ok got a little off topic with those last questions, but still valid. Thanks

[Rias]

1. will a non-registered item disappear if you are in the room with it? anywhere, at anytime, or any item as special cases?

Nope. The janitor doesn't work in rooms that are occupied by PCs, and item "janitor timers" don't go down in that case either.

2. is there a time limit to how long an item will be pilfered by some unseen npc once you leave the room? can I drop my trunk in the leather working room while I make a purchase in the leather shop without worry that the 2 minutes I'm gone someone will snatch it?

There's a timer. Leaving an item for 2 minutes is fine, the timer's much longer than that.

3. should someone unregister an item before throwing it away or destroying it or is that code in place to erase the registration with the item destruction?

It's not automated.

4. Will the pawn shop owner go out of his way to say send you mail if someone pawns a registered item to you or will he say something to the effect when you enter his shop/ ask for a list of wares?

The plan is to have them notify the registered owner by mail, though not immediately. It will likely take some time.

5. Will a registered container "protect" items left in it?

Yes.

6. Are there plans to create a perishable code? i.e. food crops left in a wagon going bad after a time based on environment.

Yes.

7. if perishable code is added, will there be a preserve code added to counteract or extend the perishable time? i.e. dried meat lasts a long time but regular old cooked meat doesn't.(this could be worked into skewering over a campfire for smoking/drying)

Yes.

[xavier]

thank you.