CLOK BBS

Jirato wrote:I vote we get rid of the depart penalty as it is currently but give an exponentially increasing chance of permadeath on each depart instead!

Who's with me?

+ a billion

Really, I don't think departing is too awful - there are times I think it's perfectly acceptable, and even necessary, due to "it's a game". I know the evil/less-friendly/less-popular people have to use it more often, and that's fine, too. It's not the ideal solution by a longshot, but it works until something better can be added. The GMs aren't going to hate someone if they use depart - if we didn't want it to be possible at all, we'd just remove it.

... which will probably happen, once a more suitable alternative comes about.

Rias wrote:I don't know, I've always kind of had this desire that dying should probably be something that people should be encouraged to avoid, and that there should be consequences that consist of more than simply AFKing around and waiting it off.

Based on this post from the thread on Undying bodies, I would support having Undying wake up naked if they depart, forcing them to find their old corpse and loot it -- with the exception that if you wait to be rescued, no one else can loot your corpse.

It makes logical sense based on the lore; it's a tougher penalty for departing (but not too tough -- not as tough as, say, outright skill loss); and it would encourage people to wait to be rescued.

Jirato wrote:I vote we get rid of the depart penalty as it is currently but give an exponentially increasing chance of permadeath on each depart instead!

Who's with me?

To be perfectly honest, I'd like this. It'd obviously mess up the balancing of some things quite a bit, but I've always liked the idea of random perma-death.

And with that, I think I'm gonna leave this topic.

Jirato wrote:I vote we get rid of the depart penalty as it is currently but give an exponentially increasing chance of permadeath on each depart instead!

Who's with me?

I've recently come to like the concept of permadeath, plus I think it would keep with the lore we have in which Undying don't know when a death will be their final death. But I realize that the risk of permadeath probably seeps a lot of enjoyment out of the game and all, and I don't know if I agree that risk of permadeath a "fair" penalty for the depart command. But it's good food for thought at least! :)

Permadeath is one of the things I truly dislike myself, at least in regards to always happening.

Examples of how I didn't mind it would be GS actually, where if you had deeds, you'd take a hefty penalty if you departed but you didn't have suffer permadeath if you had one. Preventable, but it was there.

Honestly, I know I'm in a massive minority here but the idea of waiting a week or more (if ever) to decide they yes, they want to try and rescue Dorn from XYZ just doesn't dazzle me.

Dorn wrote:Permadeath is one of the things I truly dislike myself, at least in regards to always happening.

Examples of how I didn't mind it would be GS actually, where if you had deeds, you'd take a hefty penalty if you departed but you didn't have suffer permadeath if you had one. Preventable, but it was there.

Honestly, I know I'm in a massive minority here but the idea of waiting a week or more (if ever) to decide they yes, they want to try and rescue Dorn from XYZ just doesn't dazzle me.

Permadeath was eventually removed from GS. They just had far stiffer penalties for having no deeds.

Perhaps some sort of time consuming semi-secret soul preparation rituals (with an associated cost) could be offered by the church and by npc sorcerors to help relieve the sting of the next death? Or by a new organization that represents a community of the undying? No stacking, of course. This would frontload the experience and give a choice regarding penalties. It could also lead to some interesting rp if done right.

I really don't mind the depart penalty as it stands right now.
The only time when departing would be an annoying problem is when people just instadepart instead of giving us the chance to drag and drop the body off. It's a good chance for churchor players to get RP in the church and it's also a good chance for people to see a Rook raising. (Creepy things if you ask me, them Rook raisings.)
I think by death being so easy to come by, particularly if one doesn't know the game, cheapens the experience. I get tired of acting out this whole thing with someone and they just get up and thank you and leave. "Okay it was nice knowing you see you around stay alive a little longer this time buhbye..."

I like Acarin's idea of going through an entire RP thing to lessen the effects of the next death. It could be a hit or miss chance. At the end it's a great RP experience regardless.

I don't like permadeath and I don't like losing my stuff, even if it's clothes. People would start carrying newbie swords and shields just to not use their nicer things and things are meant to be used!

I don't know, equipment loss on death would start changing the attitudes that if something isn't exquisite it's not worth using, because they'd have to deal with the chance that items are lost when they die.

preiman wrote:I don't know, equipment loss on death would start changing the attitudes that if something isn't exquisite it's not worth using, because they'd have to deal with the chance that items are lost when they die.

I almost feel like that would be a good thing? We'd see a lot more use of Artisans, with people only ever taking MC stuff when they think they might get rescued and exquisite becoming the new "high-end" almost.

Personally? I don't like it, but I can understand why it would go down that road.

Dorn wrote:

preiman wrote:I don't know, equipment loss on death would start changing the attitudes that if something isn't exquisite it's not worth using, because they'd have to deal with the chance that items are lost when they die.

I almost feel like that would be a good thing? We'd see a lot more use of Artisans, with people only ever taking MC stuff when they think they might get rescued and exquisite becoming the new "high-end" almost.

Personally? I don't like it, but I can understand why it would go down that road.

I like it. I'd -hate- losing a few precious things in a hard to retrieve place( especially unique merchant crafted items) but that could be dealt with... Maybe... I dunno. Guess it would give way more meaning to dying than there already is.

Kunren wrote:

Dorn wrote:

preiman wrote:I don't know, equipment loss on death would start changing the attitudes that if something isn't exquisite it's not worth using, because they'd have to deal with the chance that items are lost when they die.

I almost feel like that would be a good thing? We'd see a lot more use of Artisans, with people only ever taking MC stuff when they think they might get rescued and exquisite becoming the new "high-end" almost.

Personally? I don't like it, but I can understand why it would go down that road.

I like it. I'd -hate- losing a few precious things in a hard to retrieve place( especially unique merchant crafted items) but that could be dealt with... Maybe... I dunno. Guess it would give way more meaning to dying than there already is.

I know I said I was leaving, but...
This is why registering items is a thing. Equipment drop on death could really make registering crucial, and could also give mercs, thieves, and possibly assassins something fun to do if the item was stolen or picked up by someone else. Someone has to retrieve it, after all.

One thing that would possible concern me, is the fact that currently it is very easy for a new player to stumble someplace and die very quickly.

Like that review said a while back, you have a lot of higher level places next to lower level. Personally, love it. No area banding and all that. But it could lead to issues for newer players.

Well, just like infirmaries are free to new players untik the newbie bonus wears off, equipment dropping could be restricted for a time. Maybe until the bonus wears off, or until one combat-related skill reaches 25.

Fayne wrote:Well, just like infirmaries are free to new players untik the newbie bonus wears off, equipment dropping could be restricted for a time. Maybe until the bonus wears off, or until one combat-related skill reaches 25.

+1 for newbie bonus, personally don't like the "combat skill reaches 25" thing.

Only reason I suggested it is because it is possible and very easy to use up the newbie bonus without ever getting a single point in combat or dying.

How about we just not have item droppage? I'm strongly against this for a variety of reasons, the most prominent of which is that it adds nothing to the game. Here are some additional reasons:
1) No one will wear/use anything nice anymore when they stand to lose all their stuff.
2) It's not fun to go back to an area you just died in with reduced skills (increasing the chance you will die again)
3) This seems like it would be a waste of coding resources when there are so many other things that should be a priority
4) Artisans want a market but most of the junk you'd lose can't be made by artisans anyways. Plus, death mechanics should not be based around artisans.
5) If you bump into own corpse, it destroys the space-time continuum.

Preserve the space-time continuum. Say no to item droppage.

Acarin wrote:How about we just not have item droppage? I'm strongly against this for a variety of reasons, the most prominent of which is that it adds nothing to the game. Here are some additional reasons:
1) No one will wear/use anything nice anymore when they stand to lose all their stuff.
2) It's not fun to go back to an area you just died in with reduced skills (increasing the chance you will die again)
3) This seems like it would be a waste of coding resources when there are so many other things that should be a priority
4) Artisans want a market but most of the junk you'd lose can't be made by artisans anyways. Plus, death mechanics should not be based around artisans.
5) If you bump into own corpse, it destroys the space-time continuum.

Preserve the space-time continuum. Say no to item droppage.

1) I think people will still use their nice things, and it might actually help to bring down the acceptable item quality ceiling. Right now everyone seems to think they need exquisite items or better, and everyone and their dog has exquisite items. I've said it once and I'll say it again: average is only average if it is the moat common, amd right now it's actually about equal with exquisite. Actually, with item droppage, people might use their better equipment as backup in case they do die and have to retrieve their things.
2) If you depart, usually you have to heal from near-fatal wounds anyway. While you're healing the reduced skills penalty should go away.
3) Coding resources should go toward improving the game, whether it's in a way that people like or dislike. This wouldn't ruin the game by far, so I'd see it as an improvement, even if it does become a pain in the rear. Current death mechanics were a pain in the rear when they were first implemented too.
4) This isn't even about Artisans. Sure, they'd probably benefit, but mainly it'd be a new and interesting mechanic that would even fit with lore, and it'd be a good placeholder to put on depart until the rest of the death mechanics can be decided on and implemented. In fact, I would imagine this would be a penalty of reviving by yourself anyway, considering this seems to be the only logical way for you to be revived without assistance. If you are carrying items that aren't easily replaced, or can't be crafted or bought, the register system is your fall-back.
5) Come on, Grum needs something to go off of when trying to create their WMDs. A rip in the fabric of time and space would be a perfect starting point for them.

Fayne wrote:

Acarin wrote:How about we just not have item droppage? I'm strongly against this for a variety of reasons, the most prominent of which is that it adds nothing to the game. Here are some additional reasons:
1) No one will wear/use anything nice anymore when they stand to lose all their stuff.
2) It's not fun to go back to an area you just died in with reduced skills (increasing the chance you will die again)
3) This seems like it would be a waste of coding resources when there are so many other things that should be a priority
4) Artisans want a market but most of the junk you'd lose can't be made by artisans anyways. Plus, death mechanics should not be based around artisans.
5) If you bump into own corpse, it destroys the space-time continuum.

Preserve the space-time continuum. Say no to item droppage.

1) I think people will still use their nice things, and it might actually help to bring down the acceptable item quality ceiling. Right now everyone seems to think they need exquisite items or better, and everyone and their dog has exquisite items. I've said it once and I'll say it again: average is only average if it is the moat common, amd right now it's actually about equal with exquisite. Actually, with item droppage, people might use their better equipment as backup in case they do die and have to retrieve their things.
2) If you depart, usually you have to heal from near-fatal wounds anyway. While you're healing the reduced skills penalty should go away.
3) Coding resources should go toward improving the game, whether it's in a way that people like or dislike. This wouldn't ruin the game by far, so I'd see it as an improvement, even if it does become a pain in the rear. Current death mechanics were a pain in the rear when they were first implemented too.
4) This isn't even about Artisans. Sure, they'd probably benefit, but mainly it'd be a new and interesting mechanic that would even fit with lore, and it'd be a good placeholder to put on depart until the rest of the death mechanics can be decided on and implemented. In fact, I would imagine this would be a penalty of reviving by yourself anyway, considering this seems to be the only logical way for you to be revived without assistance. If you are carrying items that aren't easily replaced, or can't be crafted or bought, the register system is your fall-back.
5) Come on, Grum needs something to go off of when trying to create their WMDs. A rip in the fabric of time and space would be a perfect starting point for them.

1) All nice things aren't exquisitetly crafted weapons and armor. I don't use any of these things (at least on Zuki). My clothing items cannot be replaced. I would be very angry if they were lost and thus would not wear anything made by a merchant. I do not see arguments involving item quality as relevant here. If you're suggesting only weapon and armor drops, fine. Those degrade anyways. Don't get me wrong, I am still highly against this.
2) If I died in the area in the first place, as an average character, chances are that if I go in with no equipment, I have a high chance of dying again. What if I need to log off and don't have time to go track down my corpse. I can go find some temporary equipment, but please!
3) Ask yourself if this actually improves the game. I would say it does not.
4) This is about artisans. Item loss is a way to remove items from game and boost the economy for select crafting players. I greatly dislike this route and think it just adds frustration to a game.
5) The Grum can find another way to destroy the world. Perhaps something involving kittens.

Just weighing in. This is my opinion. I'll be very frustrated if this ever gets implemented as I think it's rather pointless and again, I play games for enjoyment not for annoying activities after a potentially already frustrating incident.

I still think simply registering your items could reduce a large amount of frustration that would come from item droppage, and sufficiently preparing could reduce those frustrations even further. It still wouldn't be rainbows and butterflies, but if you think about it in the same way as the healing system it isn't that bad. If you prepare well enough before combat, the healing system is still frustrating and inconvenient, but it's not nearly as bad as just rushing in headfirst without any preperation. And honestly, maybe dropping all items isn't the best direction to go, and instead only some items are dropped. Makes less sense logically, but greatly reduces potential frustration. Maybe clothes and containers should be kept, but everything else is subject to be dropped. I always found it silly that corpses hold onto their weapons like a vice anyway.

I can see dropping anything being held in the hands to the ground (so they can be picked up by anyone), but this would inevitably lead to people killing others for their items. I think it's just a bad idea for the same reason I can't loot another player's corpse after I assassinate them. Too much abuse potential and too much time spent by GMs listening to whining about losses.

Dropping just what's in your hands or both weapons and armor would not even fit in with the complete lore and would not make sense (you maintain some items but the rest are still on your corpse?). This just seems like an all or none type of thing to me.

I would prefer a game without permadeath and catastrophic loss of all items. But then I have invested a lot of time into my characters and have gotten them to be somewhat competitive with the higher skill characters. This type of thing would greatly benefit newer characters with less time investment who want to remain combat and skill competitive without the effort, so maybe this is from where these recent suggestions stem.

Well said, Acarin.

I would be against permadeath, and I would also be against you losing any items if you waited to be rescued. My suggestion for losing your items was only if you departed, and the reason I brought it up was because the staff appear to be discussing making departing more punishing.

I agree with Acarin. Adding something that would make the game more frustrating to the majority of people is never a good idea. I've known players who have quit playing THIS game for even less frustrating things than losing their items or permadeath (having to wash off before being able to order from a shop, to be exact).

Mind you, I think it would be different if CLOK had been using these concepts from the beginning. Then we wouldn't have people who have literally put years into this game standing to lose that effort.

let's not use people who don't want to wash as an example, because honestly if that little thing was enough to make them quit, I personally think we're probably better off.

I would like to see item droppage on the quick-and-easy depart option in the future, when it would be 100% avoidable by being rescued/raised or other methods of coming back to life that aren't instant and don't require action on the part of others, but take a little effort or have other trade-offs. If the quick-and-easy depart option would even remain, that is. I'd actually prefer it be taken out, and the other methods requiring some activity and effort to keep the player doing things instead of just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

I'm not overly fond of front-loading effort for death recovery, because that would still make death an "eh, no big" thing when you actually do die. I'd rather it be: you die, and then have to go through some effort/procedure/whatever. Wait. Is that this thread, or the other one? Eh.