Players playing catchup

[criticalfault]

So, some folks and I were talking and it kind of came to the conclusion that some of the players who are part timers (less than 10 hours a week) fall pretty drastically behind on skillgains. I'm sure this is a topic that's come up before, but I wondered about a system in place to allow them to get some kind of catch up. I know right now I spend a LOT of time grinding on some characters avoid combat completely on others. It would be interesting to see some kind of temporary buff, to help those who don't get to play a lot not be completely left behind.

The challenges to this idea are two fold.


1) Alts - Wanting to not allow folks who have tons of alts freedom to raise a bunch of characters incredibly quickly because they can't play any given one for a longer period of time. To me, having alts is something for someone who does have a lot of time. I wouldn't want to see this specific thing used to give a speed bonus for juggling a bunch of characters. Again, that's my opinion, if others feel differently, then that's fine!

2) Deciding exactly how to judge when to give this buff. Weekly would be nice, for 20 or 30 skill gains. Maybe it doesn't tick if you already gain 30 points that week or something. It would be nice to see, a way of making sure people who need it get it and people who don't can just keep on doing what they are doing. It would be cool to see some of the part timers still be important and able to play ball with the others. I know some people get frustrated with the push to get up to being confident just walking around. Being mauled to death by infest scarabs, coyotes and wolves is kind of a bummer. A lot of us rush to be able to defend ourselves from the little threats like that!

Just an idea! And yes some of you may recognized this from another place! Its still a good idea

-D

[Vertebrate]

What do you think aout using tutor for this purpose?

[Kiyaani]

You can use tutoring to help with some of the catching up. You can also take time to RP and use the 'nominate' command to help your friends get recognized for RPAs which will help as far as getting gains more efficiently.

I don't really see how a it would be beneficial to those who spend the time grinding normally if someone else is busy or can't sign in for whatever reason and gets a free buff. Real life is real life and it has to take precedence, but that doesn't necessarily mean the game has to compensate for that. Everyone has things that come up, alts they might enjoy etc. Being good at combat doesn't make your character more or less important or influential, it just makes you good at combat. Most events where combat really matters you'll be in a group and can work as a team. In all other cases, it's the RP that really helps your character stand out.

[Vertebrate]

Regarding Ki's appeal to fairness, if everyone gets the buff for their first (for example) 10 hours per week, doesn't that make it fair for everyone? I will also say that being a newb with no skills sucks when you want to RP with a veteran who will wipe the floor with you, i.e. Ki vs. Dactor in a knock down drag out fight. It would be so much nicer if I even had the option to RP a victorious celebration over the corpse of that little brat! Dactor had to settle with just butchering her horse and making it out alive a few times. Saying that Clok is strictly focused on RP, and combat is just a side role, is a double edged sword: it can be taken to mean that "Who cares if casuals/newbs become great fighters in a few weeks like those who grind all week long, since fighting isn't all there is to do in Clok anyways?" Or in other words, if RP is king, why tailor the game to grinders?

[Kiyaani]

I think the only thing that would really give the fairness you want is skill caps or a system more like DND or other pen and papers where you have certain traits or attributes that you put points in and you just can't have everything, but you can still be good with what you choose. Otherwise there will never be a way to catch up to someone who plays consistently and grinds consistently. Fortunately for some, I rarely grind. I've just been playing long enough that I'm still a competent fighter.

As far as the issue of catching up... I've pretty much given up on hoping I can ever overpower certain characters if it comes to a fight. Skillgains used to be different, easier, buyable and a lot has changed over time. I still don't think it's a good idea to give everyone a free buff and believe me, I've been on the receiving end of beatdowns often enough that I can appreciate the desire to have one.

The state of combat does make me a bit sad sometimes since it's RP enforced and should be about RP and not about having to grind just so you can feel like you are able stand your ground if someone throws a tantrum or decides they don't like what you say or just decides to attack unprovoked, but that's just how the game is and that's fine. It's just a different system. If your character is particularly weak you may need to keep your head down for a while or be prepared to lose a few encounters. If there's one thing I've learned about this game it's that while most people try to RP and are generally understanding of the vast differences in skills, some people aren't and use a 'might makes right' approach. It's just something you have to deal with.

Also, someone sounds a bit sore =P

[Rias]

In my dreams, I have this game where you come up with a character and a backstory, and you get a set of skills to match that backstory (balancing restrictions in place, of course). You then play the game with those skill levels, without further gains, so you're just playing your character in a grand story, and the joy of it is getting immersed in your role and having to play to your strengths and learn how to deal with your weaknesses.

Alas, very few people seem to enjoy the idea of no skillgains (what do I have to shoot for? I need numerical goals and levels to grind!), and it seems the majority of people who like CLOK enjoy it because you can do nearly anything, if you take the time to grind for it.

I still consider making that other game sometimes, though, even if only a few people played it. That, and the complete wilderness version of CLOK with no towns. You've for whatever reason ended up in the ruins-speckled wilderness in the quarantine. No settlement has been able to last through the plague, roving packs of canim, swarms of infested, and ever-growing tides of nethrim. Survive!

[Makkah]

In my dreams, I have this game where you come up with a character and a backstory, and you get a set of skills to match that backstory (balancing restrictions in place, of course). You then play the game with those skill levels, without further gains, so you're just playing your character in a grand story, and the joy of it is getting immersed in your role and having to play to your strengths and learn how to deal with your weaknesses.

Alas, very few people seem to enjoy the idea of no skillgains (what do I have to shoot for? I need numerical goals and levels to grind!), and it seems the majority of people who like CLOK enjoy it because you can do nearly anything, if you take the time to grind for it.

I still consider making that other game sometimes, though, even if only a few people played it. That, and the complete wilderness version of CLOK with no towns. You've for whatever reason ended up in the ruins-speckled wilderness in the quarantine. No settlement has been able to last through the plague, roving packs of canim, swarms of infested, and ever-growing tides of nethrim. Survive!

That sounds awesome.

[Elystole]

In my dreams, I have this game where you come up with a character and a backstory, and you get a set of skills to match that backstory (balancing restrictions in place, of course). You then play the game with those skill levels, without further gains, so you're just playing your character in a grand story, and the joy of it is getting immersed in your role and having to play to your strengths and learn how to deal with your weaknesses.

So a MUSH? People do play those. They have their own problems from what I've seen.

I still consider making that other game sometimes, though, even if only a few people played it. That, and the complete wilderness version of CLOK with no towns. You've for whatever reason ended up in the ruins-speckled wilderness in the quarantine. No settlement has been able to last through the plague, roving packs of canim, swarms of infested, and ever-growing tides of nethrim. Survive!

I think it'd be great if the wilderness was made more dangerous!

[Vertebrate]

That does sound like a fun game for hardcore RPers

Shutting down the cities for a week or two in Clok might make for an interesting event. Come up with an ingame excuse... a curse, a disease, a mass hysteria against anyone suspected of being Undying. Shut em out and see if they survive, and how.

Now that I think about it, any event that forces the PCs, and I mean all of them, to be together all at the same time for some reason for a few days, would be neat. Or maybe force them into 2 factions that must interact at some point.

So Rias, it is interesting to hear you say "in your dreams" about Clok, when I thought that's exactly what Clok was for you. Your dream game. That makes me wonder where Clok is headed.

[Jaster]

Have you seen what I can do with manure? Rias has already said CLOK has gone places he never intended.

[baerden]

I still consider making that other game sometimes, though, even if only a few people played it. That, and the complete wilderness version of CLOK with no towns. You've for whatever reason ended up in the ruins-speckled wilderness in the quarantine. No settlement has been able to last through the plague, roving packs of canim, swarms of infested, and ever-growing tides of nethrim. Survive!

I would also love this!

Throw in the ability to dynamically create (but still predefined objects, walls etc, pieces of structure that fit together, not a singular 'outpost' object) outpost/forts/defenses we can build/upgrade that the nethrim/infected/rival pc's try to bring down to get to the tasty man-flesh inside, and i'll be in heaven.

The teamwork, backstabbing, treaties and 'real' roleplay that would be inspired by trying to survive, keep your town alive or destroy a rivals
makes me giddy.

Weird, i know.

[baerden]

As far as getting rid of grinding while still maintaining a sense of character advancement, i've pondered such a system before.

Basically, there's a skill cap. It doesnt take much grinding to get here, but as you dont use these skills, they degrade quickly (I know, doesnt coincide with the 'riding a bike' phenomena). So, basically create a system whereby you start with whatever selection of skills to start out at cap, lets say 3 or 4 in any category crafting, warmaking, whatever, and make the degrade happen in such a way that it is not practical to try to keep up with the degradation of all skills available to learn.

I had designed and documented a more detailed version of this but its been loss to the annals of time..

[Kiyaani]

I had thought about a degradation system too and it seems reasonable from certain aspects, but the problem is we have a lot of super casual players who would go from legendary to pansy and that's not really fun for anyone. Also, just because you're playing doesn't mean you're practicing your skills. Sometimes people just want to socialize and RP with what limited time they have and don't want to have to maintain skills they've already earned. So it doesn't get rid of that feeling of having to grind to stay on top, it just helps you get to the top faster.

I imagine that the maintenance part of skills is happening when you're not logged in and the skill-gaining is when you are logged in.

[baerden]

I had thought about a degradation system too and it seems reasonable from certain aspects, but the problem is we have a lot of super casual players who would go from legendary to pansy and that's not really fun for anyone. Also, just because you're playing doesn't mean you're practicing your skills. Sometimes people just want to socialize and RP with what limited time they have and don't want to have to maintain skills they've already earned. So it doesn't get rid of that feeling of having to grind to stay on top, it just helps you get to the top faster.

I imagine that the maintenance part of skills is happening when you're not logged in and the skill-gaining is when you are logged in.

Oh I wasn't talking about adding it to clok as it is, was talking about Rias's alternate reality. Thinking about it further, skill degradation would only start when you start putting points/gains into alternate skills (or above the skill point pool cap) and based on that pool it would speed up or slow down the rate at which skills degrade without use/whatever. Just spitballing here.

[Kiyaani]

Ah, thanks for clarifying =)

[Isiaa]

You know, I've played a game which started of as just wilderness but where you could build structures. It was hard and challenging and fun. But I stopped playing after a while because of RL and sort of forgot about it. But anyway, that idea works. But characters no skill-gains doesn't make sense from an RP point of view either. If I spend three months doing nothing but studying herbs and brewing potions and experimenting I should get better at brewing potions and identifying herbs.

[TwistedAkai]

I saw a system for limiting skills in an MMO. You have your variety of skills, and gain by using and so on and so forth, but there was a set limit. Once you reached that limit, any skill gain would result in a loss across the board to pay for it, so you never went over the cap, but could still change. The only thing they let you choose whether you wanted a skill to go only up, only down, stay where it was, or change naturally, but if you were at cap and your choices didn't leave you with points to lose, you didn't gain, either.