Learning from Failure

[Elystole]

For hours now I've been wandering around a graveyard waiting for undead squirrels to ambush me to try and train perception.

That in and of itself is pretty absurd but it gets better: I only get a skill gain when I successfully spot them. That means there can't be any degree of (!) with the attack which, with my sub-one skill, is pretty rare. I spot, maybe, 20% of ambushes. If I'm being generous. Each successfully spotted ambush nets me a 0.01 increase in perception. That, combined with my failure rate, means I need to be ambushed some 500 times for a one rank increase in perception.

Suffice to say, I don't have one yet. The experience is made worse by the fact that there aren't many squirrels to begin with, the various mobs are so fragile that I'm not gaining much combat experience, and they don't carry any loot nor are they skinnable so I'm not getting anything for killing them. I feel like I am wasting hours and hours of my free time trying to raise a single skill that is pretty important to my character concept. And I don't have a single rank increase for it.

Yes, I'm upset.

And, yes, I know I can get training in perception, but I already got lessons in three other skills because I wasn't expecting perception to be this mind-numbingly terrible to learn. That's because I expected this MUD to have what literally every other skill-based MUD I have ever played had: Learning from failure.

Learning from failure is how people learn. When I practice my piano playing, I don't sit down and play nothing but scales for an hour. I am constantly pushing myself to try new songs and I learn by hitting the wrong note, wincing, and correcting my technique. I also learn something from playing a song perfectly - the first few times. When it comes to hiding, you learn you suck at it when you dive behind the couch and someone points out that your feet are sticking out. Next time you hide your feet too. Not learning from failure is why this feels like a colossal waste of time: Of all the time I've spent training, the only time that actually matters are those few, few times I've spotted the ambush or, for stealth, ambushed without being detected at all.

It seems especially egregious as perception/stealth have different degrees of failure: There's a green (!), bright yellow (!), dark yellow (!), and no (!). Only the green (!) and no (!) count for skill gains depending on what you're training, even though two of those other outcomes means you didn't completely screw it up. Weapons give you skill gains whenever you hit, even if you only did a little damage. And there's the fact that other skills, such as mining and lapidary, give you skill gains no matter how well or how poorly you do the job. It also sucks when you're trying to train a skill that costs riln every time you practice it (such as firearms) and not get anything for the expense because only hits count. So I've also been throwing riln down a hole while wasting time.

It isn't fun. It feels like work. Worse, it feels like totally unproductive work because there's almost nothing to show for it. Every time you use a skill you should experience a skill gain, though maybe not giving the same amount for all results, so long as neither success nor failure were guaranteed.

[Jaster]

So you're not actively searching for the squirrels? Once one ambushes you and you know it is in the room, you can SEARCH the room to find it. You get a higher gain from searching and discovering the squirrel hidden as opposed to letting it continuously ambush you. Once you search and find one, you can POINT at it to expose its hiding spot, thwarting any ambush and forcing it to have to rehide. Note, each time you successfully see someone hide you get a small gain to perception as well.

[Elystole]

I was trying to search for squirrels, but it seemed silly to walk around searching for things that may or may not there. When they attacked me, I'd kill them since that is what you do with undead squirrels.

I've started just standing here and letting then ambush me, hide, ambush me again, etc. until they exhaust themselves, which is working better since I am occasionally noticing them hide, but it seems a bit OOC. Searching isn't working too well in those circumstances since I'm under attack. When I point at them, they attack anyways instead of rehiding.

Still, thanks for the suggestions.

[Jaster]

That's the problem with grinding skills I guess. It's "OOC" in most cases, and perception is one of the most grindy skills there is.

[Drayla]

Stealth and perception are most definitely the most OOC skills to raise. They are practically impossible to grind without breaking character. Stealth is easier, since you can go hide in a place with weak enemies and jump out at them every time you see one, and as long as a (!) shows up (in any color) you get skill gains. Perception, though, is only raised through careful means, and very precise conditions. You almost always have to break character to grind it. Only members of Tse Gaiyan have access to an area that lets you train stealth and perception in an IC way as far as I know. I do have two tips though: One, you gain skill in perception whenever you see someone or something hidden leave the area you are in, but not when they enter. You could wait while hidden in an area with hidden enemies, continually search for them, and then wait for them to leave once you see them to increase your skill faster. Another thing you could do is hunt in the plains near Mistral Lake. They are abundant with gophers, and as soon as you spot them, they usually sneak off to another area. Now, hunting alone, as far as I know, doesn't gain you any perception skill (even though I believe it should), but like I said earlier, whenever something hidden leaves the area and you see it do so, you gain skill. This would probably raise it just as quickly as searching for squirrels would, so just take your pick which one you think could be better explained RP-wise.

Just out of curiosity, why is high perception so critical for your character? The only thing it does is help you find hidden things and see people when they try to sneak into the same area as you or pick your pocket.

[Elystole]

Just out of curiosity, why is high perception so critical for your character? The only thing it does is help you find hidden things and see people when they try to sneak into the same area as you or pick your pocket.

My character is a scout. His job is reconnaissance, which is why he was selected for going into the Lost Lands to report back to Grum on the situation. He's all about finding hidden things.

Anyways, while this post was prompted by the experience of trying to raise perception and that's gotten better, I still think learning from failure is a good idea.

[Drayla]

I can understand why "learning from failure" makes sense. The only issue with it is the same reason elemancers thus far have no true way to learn their skills "peacefully": there is no challenge. You see, almost every skill has a challenge behind it, and thus raise your skill. Stealth has a chance to fail, combat only goes up as long as the enemy you are fighting is pathetically weaker than yourself, so on and so forth. Even the skills like mining and lapidary that go up with every use have a challenge behind them in the form of either physical danger, loss of the item, or a poor end result.

I do have one more suggestion to help you raise your perception: find someone IC who will help you train. You can get training from them to get the same benefits you would get from a trainer, but for free. Or you could even have that person tutor you, and you would both benefit from it.

[Elystole]

I don't see how learning from failure means there is no challenge. If you fail at something, it's because you were challenging yourself. Beating up something significantly weaker than you so that you always hit is not a challenge; facing a dangerous opponent where you miss half the time is a real challenge and it forces you to get better at what you're doing. If anything, what I'm talking about is how portions of the current system ignore the challenge and punish risk-taking.