Take that, you stinkin criminal!

[Jaster]

A few suggestions for the "justice system" came to me after a brief stint Jaster had in the Valeria prison earlier.

The first is in regards to the stun-subdue method of arrest. In general, this makes it too easy for a criminal to be subdued (granted it does "make sense" in terms of realism) and doesn't give them much chance to escape being arrested. That is why I'd like to see a system where a criminal would have to be "killed" by a guard before he could be arrested. Instead of dying, the criminal would just end up in prison/jail.

But Jaster, you say, this means you'll lose all of your equipment no matter what if you're caught in Shadgard! Well, no, not necessarily. That is where my next suggestion comes in.

I'm talking about the current mechanic of an arrested criminal's equipment being put in the local bank where they are arrested, here. Instead of that, the criminal's equipment would be placed in a locked chest somewhere around the prison/jail. The crime fees would still be deducted from the local bank account, like normal. That way, a normal non-dirty criminal who just happened to make a few mistakes in his life and never intended to become a criminal in the first place (don't worry, kid, it happens) would just have to pay off his debt to gain all his equipment from the chest. However, a dirty career criminal would have the chance to 1) sneak back in and steal his stuff back after he gets out of the can, or 2) hire some other stinkin criminal to do it for him.

It'd add a whole new dynamic to criminality! Not to mention it could open up a possibility for a new guild-related perk, but I won't talk about that here.

[qinweiqi]

Haha, Jaster that'd be hilarious. I think a major flaw (read "bonus" if you're an "opportunist") is that you could "recover" other people's things without being hired to do so. How kind! Heh heh.

[Jaster]

Yea, I didn't think of that, but I suppose the chest could be instanced, sort of like houses are for burglary tasks. Then there could be a command for a player to use to hire someone to retrieve their stuff, which would make the chest visible to the hired player.

[Acarin]

How about they just ship your stuff to you if you pay off a fine (through the post office), or you can send an npc money to steal it back for you (for example, if you don't have any access to that town).

I agree though. It would be nice to give criminals a chance of evading arrest...

[Rias]

Criminals can evade arrest (and they have more often than not) - guards only try to subdue you on sight if you've previously resisted arrest, or you have a particularly serious crime like murder that you're wanted for. Even then, the subdual tactics are based on normal mechanics, and aren't foolproof. As things were previously, nobody ever surrendered. Everyone would resist and eventually escape, because there was no way for you to be arrested unless you voluntarily surrendered, and people would always manage to get away somehow eventually, even if it was by attacking their arrester so that they'd be killed and then respawn somewhere safe. It was silly that the guards would just sit there and derp around forever while their quarry tried multiple methods of escape or called in and waited for help. That's why they now try to subdue and then arrest under certain circumstances.

The whole point of taking your stuff and locking it away until the fine is paid (or forever, if the town hates you) is to make players reconsider entering a town they're banned from. If you're just going to get killed and respawn, or you have a way to just yoink your stuff back (or have someone else do it for you), a town ban isn't a big deal, and people will continue to stroll about towns they're banned from like it's no big thing.

It's kind of sad that the threat of being killed is generally brushed off, but being arrested and having your stuff taken is what people actually fear - but this is CLOK, where death for players isn't permament. Something has to have a bite to it.

[Barius]

They'd fear death real quick if their corpse was left where they died wearing all their gear and they respawned in a new, naked body, while whatever killed it took or destroyed the corpse and gear. As it is, it's a minor inconvenience, and even the death mechanics may not make people truly *fear* it.

Not that I'm advocating the former. And that would still leave the situation of people like Jaster wearing their old scrubs to walk into Shadgard.

[Makkah]

* You hear a deep bell toll in your mind, followed by the name "Barius."


No more stuff for you. The infested carrier took or destroyed it.

[Nootau]

He still has stuff, most likely a lot. He only spoke about losing what one carries(a common mud death penalty). Lesson is, only leave with what you are willing to lose, nothing more.

[Jaster]

I hate that mentality. You get all this nice stuff, then you never use it because you're too damn scared you'll lose it.

[Nootau]

Not really, it changes the worth of the shiny object. The daring will still use it. Shiny weapons and armor are not for training, they are for after you complete your training.

[Barius]

Nootau has a good point. Also, with the wilderness becoming more dangerous, something like that would further make you think twice about being careless in potentially dangerous areas.

And yes, if CLOK had that kind of system in place, I would have lost things. It would have been my fault. I would not have been upset at the game as a result.

[Acarin]

The problems come in when GMs intervene resulting in changes of the jurisdiction of guards. I know to store my stuff if I attempt to break into Shadgard. I don't know that while outside the gates of Shadgard there is the potential that a GM controlled npc may appear and assist in my arrest while interacting outside the canyon. Such things are possible (and have happened in the past). That being said, having no way of recovering your equipment in this type of situation does not seem right to me (although rare). In such a case in the past for me, GMs have been kind enough to provide a way to recover equipment through rp and I hope they will continue to do so in the future.

That being said, it's always annoying to lose uniques/merchant alterations. If I spend a significant amount of time, effort, and riln acquiring an item, it would be nice to be able to keep it.

For major criminals that are arrested, I would think that after their execution, their belongings would be shipped to their next of kin or home town out of courtesy to the family of the deceased (at least I would think that more civilized towns like Shardgard would do this). Perhaps this could be implemented with some significant delay (i.e. a week or two without it). Their interest is in dishing out justice and not confiscating possessions, correct?

[Rias]

That being said, it's always annoying to lose uniques/merchant alterations. If I spend a significant amount of time, effort, and riln acquiring an item, it would be nice to be able to keep it.

That's where item registration comes in. If you have an item registered, you can count on getting it back somehow at some point.

more civilized towns like Shardgard

Hahahaha

[Acarin]

That being said, it's always annoying to lose uniques/merchant alterations. If I spend a significant amount of time, effort, and riln acquiring an item, it would be nice to be able to keep it.

That's where item registration comes in. If you have an item registered, you can count on getting it back somehow at some point

Good to know! That's all a sociopath like Acarin could ask for....

more civilized towns like Shardgard

Hahahaha

I mean, they do have an orphanage...

[qinweiqi]

I was thinking about this again recently and I think when the city permanently bans someone perhaps their stuff should be sold at auction by the city. The city could recap some of the costs associated with repeat offenders that aren't going to pay up. It'd also give the criminals an opportunity to hire an agent to repurchase possessions, or carry out the fun quest of tracking their items and re-stealing them.

It'd be pretty maddening to see something being sold at auction that is one's personal stolen property though. Also, I think stolen registered items should probably be returned to their rightful owners by the legal authorities.

[Kent]

I was thinking about this again recently and I think when the city permanently bans someone perhaps their stuff should be sold at auction by the city. The city could recap some of the costs associated with repeat offenders that aren't going to pay up. It'd also give the criminals an opportunity to hire an agent to repurchase possessions, or carry out the fun quest of tracking their items and re-stealing them.

This is one of the better ideas I've heard in a while. 2 points for Qinweiqi.

[KianTheArcher]

I was thinking about this again recently and I think when the city permanently bans someone perhaps their stuff should be sold at auction by the city. The city could recap some of the costs associated with repeat offenders that aren't going to pay up. It'd also give the criminals an opportunity to hire an agent to repurchase possessions, or carry out the fun quest of tracking their items and re-stealing them.

It'd be pretty maddening to see something being sold at auction that is one's personal stolen property though. Also, I think stolen registered items should probably be returned to their rightful owners by the legal authorities.

When I first played Clok, when it was still in early development, there was a character that went around attacking everyone. He was banished from Shadgard, and his weapons/armors taken, and auctioned off, and I bought his hammer.


Honestly, if you go to the length of annoying a town to the point that you are permanently banned, it's your own fault f you lose things trying to sneak in. I approve of an auction type system like that.

[Rias]

Not a bad idea.

[Acarin]

I was thinking about this again recently and I think when the city permanently bans someone perhaps their stuff should be sold at auction by the city. The city could recap some of the costs associated with repeat offenders that aren't going to pay up. It'd also give the criminals an opportunity to hire an agent to repurchase possessions, or carry out the fun quest of tracking their items and re-stealing them.

It'd be pretty maddening to see something being sold at auction that is one's personal stolen property though. Also, I think stolen registered items should probably be returned to their rightful owners by the legal authorities.

When I first played Clok, when it was still in early development, there was a character that went around attacking everyone. He was banished from Shadgard, and his weapons/armors taken, and auctioned off, and I bought his hammer.


Honestly, if you go to the length of annoying a town to the point that you are permanently banned, it's your own fault f you lose things trying to sneak in. I approve of an auction type system like that.

Being permanently banned from a town really doesn't take that much. You don't have to go to lengths to annoy a town for a long period. A single event can be sufficient, so this is really an over-simplification.

You make it sound as if getting banned requires a lot of effort and it does not.

[qinweiqi]

Being permanently banned from a town really doesn't take that much. You don't have to go to lengths to annoy a town for a long period. A single event can be sufficient, so this is really an over-simplification.

You make it sound as if getting banned requires a lot of effort and it does not.

It is true, I don't really know what gets one banned. I imagine that once it has happened though the probability of the character actually paying fines to get stuff back rapidly approaches zero. As I lack experience in that area, I'd like to know: is it even presently possible to pay fines to get your stuff back when you are town-banned? Has anyone with a town ban ever done it?

[baerden]

I'm all for players being 'lootable' upon death. Alterations are easy to come by and most things can be replaced, even mastercrafted stuff.

I'm probably in the minority but it would feel more like a survival/rpg thing to me, and I dig that.

Bring on the 'bite'!

[KianTheArcher]

I was thinking about this again recently and I think when the city permanently bans someone perhaps their stuff should be sold at auction by the city. The city could recap some of the costs associated with repeat offenders that aren't going to pay up. It'd also give the criminals an opportunity to hire an agent to repurchase possessions, or carry out the fun quest of tracking their items and re-stealing them.

It'd be pretty maddening to see something being sold at auction that is one's personal stolen property though. Also, I think stolen registered items should probably be returned to their rightful owners by the legal authorities.

When I first played Clok, when it was still in early development, there was a character that went around attacking everyone. He was banished from Shadgard, and his weapons/armors taken, and auctioned off, and I bought his hammer.


Honestly, if you go to the length of annoying a town to the point that you are permanently banned, it's your own fault f you lose things trying to sneak in. I approve of an auction type system like that.

Being permanently banned from a town really doesn't take that much. You don't have to go to lengths to annoy a town for a long period. A single event can be sufficient, so this is really an over-simplification.

You make it sound as if getting banned requires a lot of effort and it does not.

I'm not really sure where I said it takes a lot of effort to get banned. I guess I implied it when I said "go to the length", but that incident I cited wasn't some long, drawn out thing. It was just someone being a troll and an antagonist in a bad way.

I'm also unsure of how my simple example makes any difference on the merit of the proposed idea. Consequences and repercussions for actions are good things. And if it promotes roleplay between characters, and RP inclusiveness, even better. It can lead to people have stories to tell down the road, about how they own the dread dagger of the Bandit King, and make things even more interesting if they run INTO said Bandit King later on.

Being permanently banned from a town really doesn't take that much. You don't have to go to lengths to annoy a town for a long period. A single event can be sufficient, so this is really an over-simplification.

You make it sound as if getting banned requires a lot of effort and it does not.

It is true, I don't really know what gets one banned. I imagine that once it has happened though the probability of the character actually paying fines to get stuff back rapidly approaches zero. As I lack experience in that area, I'd like to know: is it even presently possible to pay fines to get your stuff back when you are town-banned? Has anyone with a town ban ever done it?

There are ways to get permanently banned from a town, as far as I know. In those instances, I severely doubt the GMs will allow you back into a town. I think that's a good thing. It imposes repercussions for IC actions, which should definitely exist. If certain actions are performed, I'd argue that gaining favor with a town in the Lost Lands would be close enough to impossible to say "It can't be done".

[Rias]

Keep in mind that a lot of people end up banned when they get caught at a minor crime and, instead of surrendering when approached by law officers, choose to resist arrest and fight the guards, leading to stuff like assault-on-a-law-officer charges which are particularly damaging to a town rep. These people wouldn't have been banned if they gave themselves up, but alas; personal pride takes precedence, I suppose, and no criminal wants to give himself up.

There have also been a number of people I've heard claim to be "banned" from a city when really they're just wanted for a crime there. Again - turn yourself in, pay the fine, and you can waltz around town at will again without issue (provided it wasn't a straw to break the proverbial camel's back or a particularly nasty crime, like murder - in which case you'll likely serve your "time" (ten minutes jail sentence is a joke) and then be booted out of town and told not to come back).

Repitition to drive a point home: Don't complain that you're banned from a town if you refused to surrender for other crimes and ended up "sticking it to the man" and resisting arrest, harassing law officers, and so forth. Sure, you're free to do that, and sure, you're an awesome hardcore criminal fugitive supercoolguy, but now you're also banned from the town, and you have no right to complain about that at this point.