Skills for Tasks

[Ragn]

As a new player, I like to play around with different things to find out what I'm going to be most comfortable with. Picking a Mercenary, I thought it would be a good idea to practice several different weapon styles. Right tool for the job and all that, and it seems like different weapon sets offer that

I rather quickly ran into an issue, with the tasking aspect of the Guild. I imagine it would apply to any other Guilds with a "kill creature" task as well. My Melee shot up due to practising several different types of weapons.. Not a bad thing by any means, but when my Guild's tasks are based around my Combat Skills and expect them to be balanced it leaves me with a majority of Tasks that require help to do.

That in itself isn't a bad thing also, from what I gather from browsing the boards and listening to OOC that it is intended every now and then to have Tasks that are just hard enough that you'll probably have to look for help.

My problem is that with the current scenario, my character is now stuck with what he already has. Looking at the rate of skill growth he manages now, if he continually trains the 2 weapon skills he has he'll be able to balance the three in another 150-200 skill.

I would have liked to play around with some of the other weapons I've not touched yet (Chained and Hafted), but the thought of having melee get even further away from the weapons I've been using so far has put me right off.

Is it a problem in the long term? No. If I stick to those weapons, I'll eventually catch up down the road. Maybe I don't bother sticking to them, and try some different ones? Long term, if I play long enough as well it won't matter as I imagine there is a sweet spot at however many hundreds of skill that in terms of tasking it really won't matter. I doubt this matter effects much of the current playerbase at all.

However, it really isn't very friendly towards new players who will probably want to try different things only to find out that because of their experimentation they're going to have to rely on others always for Tasks nor to players in general who wish to try and played an accomplished weaponmaster without waiting to the point where they can handle everything anyway that skill imbalance doesn't matter. I've not played around with ranged weaponry yet, but looking at the skills I am going to assume this is also the case with the Marksmanship Skill.

Now that my long ramble on the why is done, here are some things I thought of that could be done about it. By far the best option IMO would be C.

A. Reduce Melee gains from basic attacks in general. Don't think it entirely solves the problem, but likely the simplest one. Or increase Weapon gain, though also don't think it would solve it. I imagine the gains from each are where they're at for a reason.

B. Adjust the way Tasks are distributed. Don't like this either as if Melee isn't counted for tasking, then it opens the way for people cranking up several weapon skills just to shoot Melee up therefore making tasking easier for those who do.

C. Adjust Melee so that it can only venture so far past your highest Weapon skill. From +10, to +100, I don't know the numbers so I can't offer one. Could set it up so if someone focuses on using the combat Abilities from Guilds it ignores that cap. Perhaps if they train Melee, it also ignores it.

Mind you, if the intention of the system is to have it so it is easy for this to happen to encourage people to just use one style of combat then fair enough.

I do however stick to the fact it is punishing for new players and makes the Mercenary Weapon Ability very misleading as that practically suggests Mercenaries are supposed to be talented with a variety of weapons. If that is the intention, then perhaps the Ability should offer a slight passive to skill gain for those weapons, akin to the way Armor Mastery does.

The requirement to group up for Tasks could still be kept in, it could simply be adjusted and balanced so it simply doesn't happen because a player doesn't know what they're doing is actually detrimental.

Blame the coffee.

[Jaster]

I'm not sure how it works, but it would make sense to me if tasks were assigned taking into consideration your highest 'weapon' skill only. It may or may not already be that way. I'm no expert on kill tasks by any means.

[Ragn]

Biggest problem with that is due to Melee effecting both attack with all weapons and defence, you end up with people potentially ignoring weapon training, or keeping multiple weapons to boost melee without raising the difficulty of tasks.

[Jaster]

You want them to be difficult, but you don't?

[Rithiel]

I realize that the mercenary skill abilities lead to this problem with new players, which is why I'm looking at removing them (and besides, they're boring).

For now, I'd suggest keeping training in the weapon skills you want and not training in melee. Since training gives you double skill gains, this should keep things balanced out.

[Ragn]

[quote=Jaster]You want them to be difficult, but you don't?[/quote]

No. I'd like it a little more forgiving to those new to the game, or those who wish to work different weapon styles instead of sticking to one while at the same time not being exploitable.

[quote=Rithiel]For now, I'd suggest keeping training in the weapon skills you want and not training in melee. Since training gives you double skill gains, this should keep things balanced out.[/quote]

Good to hear about the mercenary abilities, just +amount to some skills aren't always the most fun. But what about other classes? Or do you really want to keep the realm of multiple-weapons to just the Mercenaries?

In a game where you can pretty much practice anything and level up a skill, with that being a selling point of it.. it seems counter-intuitive to then punish players for doing so.

[Rithiel]

There are plenty of characters who aren't mercenaries and have multiple weapon skills. Skill gains and guild gains are close to separate. Yes, for some guilds your tasks are attached to skill gains, but there's no reason you can't go practice your skills on things other than what you're sent to kill for your task. We're big on making trade-offs in this game. Do you grind your best skill and your task at the same time, or do you multi-task, as it were, and do some tasks while also working in lesser areas on your lesser skills. It's really not meant for you to be able to do everything at the same time.

But that also means that you can go practice skills that have absolutely nothing to do with your guild and be pretty good at it. For example, you can decide you want to be the best cook in Arad. Of course, you'll probably have to give up doing your guild tasks, but if that's what you want, you can do it.

It should be pointed out that tasks aren't the only way to gain guild points. Each guild has an additional way to gain smaller amounts, usually connected to combat in some way.

[hadesfire]

oh yeah, just train and mercs gain GP, a slower rate, sure, but if you use combat enough that the task thing might be a problem just grind and RP and fight. I did that for my merc and got to rank four without doing any more than 3 tasks.

[Ragn]

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say is being understood if it is being boiled down to just complaining about being able to get Guild Rank.

It is more about removing options, more than anything else. And that isn't comparable to being the best cook in Arad. That's time consuming, but doesn't mechanically hinder you in anyway.

[Nootau]

Melee is counted for tasks but, melee slows down(or should at least) about 20% higher than your highest melee complementing skill. If you are worried about optimal task skill balance, you will not be able to have your weapon skills close to even. Once you find a weapon you like, focus on that one and keep it balanced with your melee and dodge rating.

[hadesfire]

There is also a point when melee gains from weaker enemies will be minimal and you can train your weaker weapons at that point. Sorry if I sounded like I thought you were complaining, I was just trying to point out another option.

[Ragn]

I suppose what I'm trying to say, can be phrased in a question. "Is it intended for combat Guild Tasks to be harder for those who work with several different weapons?"

I'm aware there are other options to get guild points, and I'm aware you can work several weapons and just ignore Melee rising. What I was trying to point out is how easy it is for a new player to stumble into this situation, especially when I would say training Melee would seem like a very basic thing most thing to start with for most players interested in playing a combat character as well as trying out different weapons.

If it is all intended, and not a problem or concern then fair enough. I'll simply not understand the reasoning >.< which I am fine with.

[Nootau]

Ragn, yes it is easy to fall into that error of making your tasks harder without intending it to be, such as having a much higher melee rating that what your other weapon skills would reason, from training multiples.

The thing is, training and tasks have little to do with one another. If you want to train and see what weapons you like, do that. Don't focus on tasks. You don't need to. Once you tested them all, pick the one or three you like the most and train them to be a bit higher than your melee(don't forget to raise dodge), then start requesting tasks again. The name of the game is not 'get the highest guild rank' it is 'get the highest stats'. A Guild rank 3 can slaughter a guild rank 20 in a duel if his skills are better.

[Makkah]

And also keep in mind that some of the more "advanced" mercenary abilities rely on high melee/weapon numbers to use effectively.

[Ragn]

I'm very well aware skills are more important than Guild rank. I also know as I said in my initial post, that with the current rate of advance of Ragn's skill if I ignore Melee now that I know that it is a bad idea to train it in another 200ish skill I can likely get my two weapon skills even with it given that I don't play around with Charge/Coup too much. It isn't about my character as it is about how the system treats the situation in general, and those new to the game.

None of this really answers the basic question I asked in my previous post. And I do apologize if I'm coming across as rude, I do realize you're all just trying to be helpful.

[Nootau]

Can you state again what the basic question was?

I thought it was "Is 'Melee' a skill that is checked when evaluating what tasks to offer?" the answer to that basic question is: Yes.

[Ragn]

[quote=Nootau]Can you state again what the basic question was?

I thought it was "Is 'Melee' a skill that is checked when evaluating what tasks to offer?" the answer to that basic question is: Yes.[/quote]

Nope, not that at all. Haven't asked that once. >.< And the question in the last post was "Is it intended for combat Guild Tasks to be harder for those who work with several different weapons?"

[Kenionatus]

But doesn't the ability to use many different weapons make you able to always pick the right one against the mobs you are fighting? Therefore it would be right that tasks get more difficult if you train different weapon skills.
If I am wrong, pleas don't worry to say it. I'm not that experienced with combat in Clok.

[Eraene]

The gist of the issue is, the fact that melee learns up so much quicker compared to weapon skills is it punishes new players who are trying many different things, or want to try many different things without immediately picking one or two weapon styles. It seems to be a flaw in the system that does *not* allow, particularly Mercenaries, to really branch out like it's suggested they can, without punishing them if they want to do tasks, because melee is accounted for in deciding task difficulty. Therefore if you have melee at 200 and your weapon skills at say, 100, that causes a major discrepancy in skill balance, and thus, task difficulty.

Tasking is *not* the issue at hand, as some seem to have read it to be. It is melee being overlearned far beyond other skills even in normal play, which unbalances the way a person plays the game. It essentially punishes you for picking different weapon styles, despite the mercenary abilities encouraging just that.

[Alexander]

Aside from task calculations, I cannot understand how having a higher melee than weapon skill is punishing. I have recently begun working on my Brawling skill, which is below 100 (compare to my Swords skill over 1,000). I have had no issue employing Brawling in combat, as I simply move to an area with foes of an appropriate challenge. I gain both skill points and guild points appropriate to that challenge, unhindered by the fact that my Melee skill is more than 1,000 points above my Brawling.

If anything, I am grateful for how Melee works, as I have not needed to start practicing my Brawling combat at square one, with rats or mournful shades or infested carriers. I began my training in the bog beyond Deadwood Forest, as my high Melee skill grants me a significant bonus to any melee attack. Having to have essentially started over completely to learn a new melee weapon style would have been significantly more daunting and less attractive a choice.

I apologize if I have missed your point, Eraene. It is my hope to help explain how the skills and challenges work, not to contradict.

[Ragn]

Aside from any other situation outside of the task calculations, it isn't punishing.

The question being asked, is should it be punishing in those calculations and if not what can be done about it.

There are options to get around it, either by bringing others along more often than a person who focused on one weapon would or by simply ignoring the tasks altogether. But why are the mechanics set up so that is necessary?

Person practices a type of magic, a type of ranged skill, and one weapon skill. They can keep their skills easily balanced, and fit nicely into the equation that is used to work on task ranges. Person practices three weapon skills instead and will likely struggle, especially if they made a mistake of training melee because they were a new player. They don't slot nicely into the equation.

Mechanically, the one ranged/magic/melee will have a whole host of other options are is likely much more able to deal with a variety of situations/monsters than the three melee but the later is given harder tasks. If that is intended, alright though I truly do not understand the reasoning for it.

[Rias]

Melee and Marksmanship don't figure into the task formula.

[Ragn]

Well huh, that's different from what I've been led to understand. Which makes the issue non-existent.

[Rithiel]

Since Rias spilled the beans, I'll elaborate. Mechanical calculations for the difficulty of tasks is an ongoing thing. Right now it only compares your highest weapon skill (or magic skill, I believe) to the critters highest defensive one. There's no check for stealth, marksmanship, or melee.

Now, this won't always be the case, but there will be an announcement when anything changes.

[Ardor]

[quote=Rithiel]It should be pointed out that tasks aren't the only way to gain guild points. Each guild has an additional way to gain smaller amounts, usually connected to combat in some way.[/quote]

*cough* Traders? Then again, out tasks are not combat related.