Observations from a newbie

[Stompy]

Hi all,
I've been playing for 3 days now; long enough to learn my way around a bit of the game but not long enough to forget all the things that confused me when I started. I wanted to give some feedback on my experiences.

Background: I've played a bunch of MUDs before. My favorite MUD of all time is Dragonrealms, but I can't justify $15/mo given the relatively low amount of time I spend playing. This game clearly draws heavily on DR, and I think it has the potential to be a far better game in the long run since it's not saddled with nasty for-profit management.

Without further ado, my impressions:
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The good stuff:
1) The flavor of the world is great, and it's clear that a lot of care has been taken to give areas and NPCs real depth.

2) Some skills are a clear leg-up on the DR version already. For example, foraging/herbalism is better because herbs can be exhausted in a location, forcing you to move around to find specific plants.

3) The players are awesome. Everyone RP's and is great to interact with thus far.

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The bad stuff:
1) Vanilla melee combat is way too dull, at least against the early enemies. Autoattack, wait until dead, repeat. The very first time I fought an infested carrier, I opened a webpage half-way through the fight so I'd have something interesting to do while I waited for the fight to end. I'm writing this post while I fight more carriers. That's bad.

Compare this to DR, where fighting ship's rats is *exciting*. DR's combat system requires the player to constantly make choices, monitor their position and balance, and pay very close attention to mobs entering the room. Challenge and choice are the keys to making the experience interesting.

2) Energy recovery is way, way too slow. Resting for more than 5 RL minutes after a fight is tedious. "Combat Adrenaline" is an amazing skill not because it helps in combat, but because it lets you trade riln for energy (by way of rations). I can't imagine playing a class without this skill.

3) The amount of information given to the player is too low. Examples:
- When a monster drops a box, there's no message. You just have to look and notice the box. This is missing a chance for an exciting and fun message!
- The fatigue and hunger gauges are way too coarse. I can "shout adrenaline" twice (for +70 energy) and not move from "Slight" fatigue. That's silly.
- There's no way to compare armor or weapons to decide what will work best for you.
- There's also no way to see how armor is affecting your skills
- There's no way to judge how hard an enemy is without fighting it
- The map that you buy in-game doesn't actually label areas, just "points of interest." Who would make a map like that?

4) Likewise, the amount of guidance given is too low. Examples:
- When you join a guild, you only get to learn one ability per promotion. This isn't spelled out when you're picking abilities, it's only discovered though the "guild" command, which is never mentioned anywhere.
- I forgot how to target the second object of the same name in a room. This was in the tutorial but it's not in any help files or on the Wiki. The Wiki needs a document listing all of the information given in the tutorial.
- There's no guidance as to what areas make good early hunting grounds. This could be remedied through guildmaster tasks, if it weren't for the fact that the map doesn't help you find the area you need to go to.
- I wouldn't have even known promotion points existed if it weren't for the widget on the custom MUSHClient.
- I didn't realize that the guildmaster would offer training for promotion points instead of riln until I had more than 20 ranks of combat. I also didn't know training would offer a bonus to learning. Since this is such a vital mechanic, it ought to be spelled out much more clearly.
- Some things seem intentionally misleading: the description of "Battle Fury" says I can't cast spells while it's active. This led me to quite a bit of trying to figure out how to cast spells, which I didn't think I could do at all as a Dwaedn Wyr. I can't, right?

5) Lockpicking is essentially only available to thieves, since they've got exclusive access to lockpicks. This closes off a whole avenue of cool loot to only one guild. Don't you think it's enough for them to have exclusive access to a trainer? (And yes, I love thieves too... they were my favorite guild by far in DR).

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I actually had a much longer post than this written, but it took me so long to write that the BBS logged me out and trying to submit the post caused it to be lost forever

Anyway, I know the above sounds critical, but I really think this game has a ton of potential and I'd like to see that potential realized.

Thanks for reading!

[Stompy]

Useful things that have been pointed out to me in response to this post and would be worth having on the wiki:
- The EFFECTS command shows you some of the information I thought was lacking, e.g. weather effects. This should be in a "tips for newbies" document of some sort. Or in a general "useful commands" document.
- Not all guilds can train with points. This would be worth having on the Wiki as a difference between guilds. And it still should be explained by the guildmaster when you join.
- Utasa also have access to lockpicks.

[KianTheArcher]

A couple of things I'd like to address about the topic, from the perspective of what I suppose you'd say is a "veteran" player.

1.) Vanilla combat with a weapon can be boring at times early on. However, if you're playing a Dwaedn Wyr, you may want to look into trying out the Brawling system, and fighting unarmed. When I first made my Dwaedn Wyr, I walked into the Infested Merchants with a bit of paid training from my guildmaster, and jabbing and punching and kicking things. I wasn't being terribly careful, and I did die a few times the first day, but after I got into a certain groove, I did not die nearly as often. I would personally like it if armed melee combat had a similar system, in which a person could manually input each swing, and build combos. But I don't think it's necessary to add at this time, this early on in the game, and it might start getting complicated when dual wielding.

2.) Energy regen can be a bit slow. But to be honest, I find it helps to go hunting with a friend. It gives you a chance to roleplay during downtime, which helps to pass the time. Otherwise, I've never had an issue with energy regen.

3/4.) If you examine weapons and armor, you'll receive information about them. I'm not sure what information you're looking for exactly, but I find everything I need from just examining them. I believe Rias has said that there is no "consider" command by design, and I sort of like exploring an area to see what exactly is going on there. I don't think a "consider" command would work with the way skills work, since there's so many different combat skills, as well as skills that don't directly influence combat like stealth.

As for guild information, that could be useful. More general guidance on guilds might be nice, and I think the thing on Battlefury might just be a mistype.

For training areas, it might be nice if there's general directions given. But again, I like to explore, and I've never really had too many issues finding what I need to with the exception of an Elemancer task once I think.

5.)You don't miss out on the loot if you're not a thief or an Utasa. You can always hire someone from one of the two guilds to open the boxes for you. But there's a term Rias has used before, called "Exclusivity by design". If anyone can purchase a lockpick, they have no reason to ever contact a Thief or Utasa, and that devalues the worth of those two guilds in terms of utility. It promotes teamwork and social interaction.

[Rias]

Welcome to CLOK, and thanks for the feedback! Glad you're enjoying the game. I have a few immediate responses, the rest of your points are well taken and being considered.

I played Dragonrealms once upon a time, ages ago, for about a week. I didn't get a good grasp on how things actually worked under the hood, but some of our concepts are based or partially based on what I assumed Dragonrealms was trying to do, that I liked more than Gemstone.

I agree, vanilla combat can be a bore. I had ideas once upon a time for more moves and different effects and so on, but the general concensus was that it would overcomplicate things, they would never be used, and it would be a wasted effort. That was before combat realy existed, granted, so I was just brainstorming. Anyway, we'd be happy to take suggestions for improved combat. We've had some ideas like combos (rather than simply extra strikes) and an advantage/disadvantage system, but nothing concrete. It's been a low priority, since combat works, albeit boringly, as it is.

Three points on energy regain:
1) If you didn't already know, sitting or lying down doubles the rate of energy regain.
2) It's intended to take a slightly long time to regain your energy, encouraging people to go back to town or a resting spot once in a while, and maybe even socialize while they're in downtime. It also theoretically would encourage people to take a monk with them, who can supply energy to others fairly efficiently, but everyone in this game seems to hate grouping.
3) Another Dwaedn Wyr recently pointed out the infinite energy exploit of Combat Adrenaline and gorging food, which will be fixed soon, likely with some kind of cooldown period. Sorry.

If you want to compare armor and weapons, the best thing to do is examine them for general information and, more importantly, go out and use them. Try them out and compare your results. Get a feel for them by actually using them.

As Kian said, the lack of a "consider" mechanic is intentional. If you want to know how dangerous something is, ask around, or find a way to observe it at minimal risk - tactics dodge and position avoid, perhaps joined with another person guarding you who is capable of handling them. I don't see why you'd be able to just look at a creature and accurately gauge its combat capabilities.

On the subject of lockpicking: There are also NPC locksmiths in the major towns who will open boxes for you, though their prices are very high. This is to encourage people to seek out a thief or Utasa for locksmithing services, just as we hope wounded characters will seek the help of a monk before running straight to the infirmary (not that either ever seems to happen).

If you lose a post to BBS timeout (an annoyance we're trying to fix, possibly by switching to a different BBS system), a trick you can do is, when the window tells you you've timed out, open a new tab, log into the BBS, switch back to the tab you lost your post in, hit the "back" button on your browser, and it should bring back your old post which you can then repost.

Again, thanks for the feedback, it'll help to make CLOK a better game!

[Landion]

There's definitely some good feedback here.

I was the one who created the tutorial and am always looking for ways to help our new players get past the initial learning curve that can be a bit steep, even when you come from games like DR and GS. So thank you for that!

Welcome to the madness!

[Evelyn]

I love grouping, just seems like noone else does.

[Ichtaca]

I grouped earlier with Katya, Kardys, and Eira. It was awesome, the two Ks attacked enemies and guarded Eira while she healed, and I did crowd control with Word of Horror, or if there wasn't a crowd I flanked after the Ks attacked and got in some good shots with my dagger.

Needless to say it went a lot better than when I was out fighting infested merchants by myself.

[Evelyn]

Well I wish people would group with me, most ignore me for some reason.

[Hadya]

I try and group with people too, and I always wait for a locksmith for my boxes. When I first started, my biggest problems were the scavengers preventing me from getting to the wilderness, and the price of an esp pendant.

It would be nice if new players started with a pendant. I think I'm going to buy a bunch of esp pendants and stick them in the crate. It was quite some time before I could afford to spend 3-600 riln on one. I found it difficult to have no means of asking questions IC, and at first running into another player was a rare occurrence. I think the game has picked up a little in the past month and a half; more people are usually around now.

[Evelyn]

It'll be nice if people of different abilities grouped more often, I feel most don't want to group with me as they feel it would be a bit boring for me as they fight newbie mobs, but I really don't mind helping others and that, it's fun to fight in a group not matter what we are fighting.

[Rias]

This is probably a good time to mention the tutor function (still being tested, report oddities!). Type tutor in-game for more info. It can really help facilitate group combat for people who are of vastly different skill levels. It even benefits both parties!

[Rias]

As a note, we will be watching people who use the tutor command. If you're just having a lowbie hang around in your group so you can tutor them and get challenge from easy creatures while the lowbie doesn't do anything, that's not cool. Use common sense - if it feels like an exploit, it probably is. Please report it.

[Evelyn]

Why did I not know of this! People group with me! Sounds really really awesome!

[hadesfire]

Does the tutor command also give a bonus to training for the newbie?

[Rias]

To prevent derailment, please discuss the tutor mechanic here: viewtopic.php?id=2358

[Stompy]

I'm really glad to see all the discussion on the topic, and I greatly appreciate all the responses. Rias, the fact that you take the time to carefully consider the input of your players and write such nice responses bodes very well for the game.

I wanted to respond specifically to some of the points brought up by Kian and Rias.

Combat
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DR started with a "combo" style system, but the result is just that over time people learn the best combos and repeat them forever. It's not much different from autoattack. They're now moving to a much more interesting system. With that system in place, the combat looks something like this:

- You have position and balance vs. an enemy. Their exact effects are a bit muddled, but essentially balance is how likely you are to be knocked over and affects position, while position is your likelihood of hitting or being hit.
- Each maneuver you perform is a tradeoff, either costing balance but doing more damage, or improving position but costing balance, etc.
- The rate of attacks also affects balance (repeated fast attacks eventually unbalancing you)
- Various skills and spells affect these in other ways.
- You can be stunned by a hard hit, which causes you to be unable to act, horribly tanks your balance (often causing you to fall over), and makes your defensive abilities much worse.
- Multiple opponents are much harder to gain position against. There's a special combat skill to negate this (or you can just always try to fight one-on-one).
- You can maintain range vs. one enemy while being at melee with another, by appropriate use of retreating, stealth, and other skills.

Energy Regen
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Yes, I knew about "lie" doubling regen. It's still too slow, and you can't do anything else while lying down, so it's just enforced downtime.

Using regen as a way to encourage you to return to town seems misguided, since going back to town costs energy (because of the wilderness) and thwarts optimal energy regen (since you can't lie down). It's just un-fun downtime. If you want people to return to town more frequently, consider:
- Making boxes weigh more / take up more space. This would also encourage people to bring a locksmith in their group!
- Making remaining in combat for too long less valuable. DR accomplishes this through EXP timers (once you're mind locked in Medium Edged Weapons, it makes sense to return to town so you can train Stealing rather than waste EXP). I think this is only a good option if you have a lot of other compelling things for people to do.

You also already have the training system in place, which encourages taking breaks from combat so you can go get trained again. Bleeding wounds do the same this as well.

Equipment
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While it makes sense that using an object is the best way to find out about it, a skilled fighter ought to be able to gauge *something* about the damage output of weapons.

Coming back to DR, they've got an Appraisal skill which allows you to more and more finely inspect objects. Newbies can tell only a few properties of things, and tend to make inaccurate guesses. It sucks if a master fighter needs a spreadsheet to decide which weapon is superior for them.

Consider
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I'm not suggesting the typical MUD consider where you get perfect info. Again, DR's Appraisal lets you get a ballpark estimate, and they also make sure that there's variation among critters so that you don't get too complacent.

I may not be able to tell whether a bear or a wolf is easier to fight, but I know damn sure that a dragon will eat me alive. It makes sense for characters to have at least this vague sense of difficult. Having to test this by getting eaten by a dragon is not a fun system.

Lockpicking
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If the goal is to make people seek out player locksmiths, this still can be accomplished by simply only offering skill training to a few classes, and by offering significant ability bonuses and perks to those classes.

In DR, every character can lockpick, but at high levels most people have others pick their boxes, because thief characters have so many advantages at the skill. The result is that everyone gets the fun of playing with the skill, but the superiority of thieves retains the inter-class dependency.

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Overall, I think that the most important thing is that the overall design goals (grouping, frequent travel to town, inter-class dependency, item/creature discovery requiring experimentation) should not trump good gameplay. It's not okay to require players to do boring tasks as a way of encouraging them to play "the right way." The carrot is mightier than the stick.

Thanks for reading!

[Elizamor]

[quote=Evelyn]Why did I not know of this! People group with me! Sounds really really awesome! [/quote]

I'll group with you! I'll get on right now!