CLOK BBS

hi,

Given the recent state of things, in-character, out-of-character, and possibly even somewhere in between, it seemed helpful to start this thread. There seem to be a handful of recurring concerns, manifesting in different ways recently, and maybe even not-so-recently. If you would like to participate and help others feel understood or want to share anything which is making CLOK feel less than what it could be, please do so here. I understand emotions may be running high, and in some ways it is beautiful to see a game can have such an impact on people, but remember those reading your words are people with an equally valid and possibly similarly conflicting set of feelings.

It may help to briefly summarize anything you might be feeling in its own introductory section before discussing it as in-depths as you like, so other readers can skim and maybe find threads of commonality somewhere. Please please be considerate: collaborate and share because otherwise we cannot address any issues which may or may not exist in the current community and help each other. What is upsetting you? How is it upsetting you? Can you identify with any of the other posts here? I do not want to have this be overly structured; this is an incomplete list of ideas to think about when discussing here. I trust everyone here to be reasonable and civil and so will not devote a paragraph to asking this of you.

Thank you for anything you feel comfortable sharing, or maybe even anything which you are not so comfortable sharing, but which you feel is important and meaningful regardless.

-Alila

Hello,
While I don’t speak for the other GMs, somethings we’re seeing concern us greatly. One thing that has cropped up over the past couple of months is hostilities between players in an OOC manner, which seem to bleed into IC and thus exacerbate the problems OOC. Another problem we are seeing are cliques forming between players that seem to target other players both IC and OOC.
Regarding the first problem. This vicious cycle does not seem to resolve itself unfortunately, and we have had to step in on multiple occasions to try and resolve them ourselves. We do not know everything that happens OOC, and so our own understanding of some of these things is incomplete. It turns into a he said she said they said situation, which is almost impossible for us to pull truths out of. While we do our best to make sure the game is a fun and friendly environment, there is only so much we can do when it comes to communication between players outside of the game’s sphere. The ignore command has been adjusted, and we ask that players who experience problems with other players OOC behavior utilize it, as well as adopting this practice for any other out of character communication. We will not ban another player simply because you don’t want someone you don’t get along with outside the game playing the same game as you.
In regards to the second concern. We understand that it’s great to play a game with your friends. However, we sincerely do not want it to turn into a mob where one group of players goes after another group or individual with the intention of changing their play style or actions in game. This is something we’ve seen recently, and it has happened in the past as well. Usually it goes something like this. Group A communicates with each other on some OOC conferencing client, Discord, Skype, or some other client. They log in and play the game. One player has an interaction with another player outside their group. That player tells their friends, hey I really think this player outside our group is doing something wrong, playing a way I don’t like, or they did something to me completely outside the scope of the game. The other members of the group have now had their impressions for this one interaction set, thus muddying any more interactions between them and this other player. This particular phenomena is referred to as group thinking. In some cases it can be good, but it becomes a negative when it turns into a mob mentality. I ask that you keep this in mind, and while it can be difficult to differ in opinions with your friends, I only ask that you try and form them on your own.

Hi,
Thank you Alila, for making this topic. I will try to be as good and eloquent as you, but my main points of contention are this...

1. When communication is not well-received.
2. Pushing boundaries.
3. Feeling unsupported, though these may all be related.

A lot of my stressors lately have been that both ic and ooc, I feel like I, and other players, have communicated a need or want for a ceasefire with the "bad" side, mainly because we're just not as trained as they all are, and that's fine. We're newer than they are. But I begin to feel unheard and like my feelings do not matter when it takes me publicly freaking out, which I try not to do, for people to understand that they need to take a step back. As a new templar, I assure you that we spend a majority of our time training to protect, but we always fall short when people want to go to Shadgard and murder the guards because they can and we can't physically stop them. In my opinion, there's a way to be an effective antagonist. Just as we do not swarm the encampments of the bad guys every chance we get, we have asked that this continuous streak of fearmongering evil have some ebb and flow, not a constant push. I wish that could be heard, and understood, and respected. I have expressed my boundaries many times on chat, what I'm okay with, what I am not, but what I have gotten in response varies from, "I hear you, I'm sorry", to, "Well we're bad guys, what do you expect?" I expect bad guys to remember that the people behind the good guys are also people; we get burned out on grinding, we get burned out on standing guard roleplay, we just... get burned out.
In a similar regard, I thought we were getting some amazing GM support with the appearance of a certain protector NPC, but its disappearance with no IC explanation has left me feeling confused, stressed, and just... a bag of emotional exhaustion. I thought we were catching a break so we could further our characters' development, but it has since felt like a slap to the face for being hopeful.
To tie up this jumbled mess, I want to say this: I hold GMs and players to a high standard. We are all adults. But recently, with the way GMs have reacted to us expressing our feelings by considering it griping, or that we're being childish and the topic is not open for discussion, that hurt. It hurt because I thought this was a place where we could mutually respect or disagree/agree with each other without being shut down. Being made to feel less than, being reduced to tears because I thought we were having a cathartic conversation on chat only to be told we're being childish, that felt so invalidating. We understand the want to push Clok in an ever-changing and evolving landscape, but that only happens successfully when we release the idea that railroading rp in a direction won't make it sustainable. When we give GMs and players alike the ability to change the outcome of certain events for Clok's future, only then does this game grow.
I want to stay. I desperately want to play the character that the Lost Lands needs. But I want to play in a community where I feel respected and heard, not where I'm shut down because discussing is too taxing.
Again, thank you Alila, for opening this thread. If anyone needs further explanation, please let me know.

I would love some guidance, if possible, from our team on how to communicate criticism.

In the dance between staff and players, as far as overall game progression, the GMs tend to lead and the players tend to follow. This is as far as mechanics and non-RP aspects go -- CLOK's GMs do an outstanding job of seeing where players are going and finding ways to make those paths more fantastical and amazing. But when mechanics are altered or created, typically we find out at the time the devlog is posted. Often times I see an update and think "awh dip!" And usually the next thought is "what if they also did X" or "have thy thought of Y" or "I am concerned about Z." This is not me trying to check the team's math. Rather, this is me, who has dedicated time to this game since 2015, wanting to be part of the process.

In these cases, I am aware that the staff has worked for hours on the new change. These hours come from free time on top of jobs, family, a global pandemic, et al. I know that these things were important enough to staff to brainstorm, discuss, code, implement, and support these new changes. I also know that nothing is worse than cooking the metaphorical meal, plating it, and having your guest say "it could have used more garlic." I am a guest in CLOK, and I understand that.

So I suppose my non-judgmental question for staff is this: do you welcome feedback from players on new changes? The answer is totally allowed to be no of course -- we are, after all, guests. I am a huge fan of the restaurants who have a "eat what we give you how we give it to you" policy. The food is usually totally dope.

But if staff wants feedback, my followup question would be how can we as players get better at giving you our thoughts? Right now, I genuinely believe that my only job as a player is to give only full-throated public support of any changes, or risk that any criticism or feedback (which I intend as a group-based brainstorming of those who want to see the game improve) will be received as either a personal attack or a comment to be completely ignored. I genuinely love the staff and never want to upset anyone. I also don't want to spend my time brainstorming, developing, and communicating ideas just to have them ignored. I get that not every idea is owed a response, but there are ways to communicate with one another that I don't think either group is fully utilizing, and it makes me sad.

CLOK, to me, feels sometimes like a pillar of sand. It allows me to see views I never could have imagined and has held me up on some of my worst days. But sometimes it changes under me, in small ways or large ways, and my feedback is either disregarded or interpreted as a weapon. I can learn to understand that my feedback is unappreciated or unworkable. I totally get that this is not my table, nor my meal, nor my house, and I can be thankful for whatever I am given. But, if I begin to not enjoy the meal, or wish it was different, and if my preferences or input is not considered or is actively rebuffed, I may begin to look for supper elsewhere.

This community is special to me. You all loved me at my best and at my worst. When I was unhealthy in undergrad and the only interpersonal contact I had for weeks at a time was in this world. When I was in post-grad and exhausted and looking for an escape. When I got fired from a job for my disability and when I got hired at my dream firm. When dates canceled and when I got engaged. You have been there. I want to be there, too. But we don't communicate well, together. And that breaks my heart. I desperately hope that this comment is taken in the manner in which it is given: a genuine, open, earnest request to learn how to communicate and work together better.

7 years player who's seen anything evolving on Clok here. My point of concern, aside from some of what you guys said which I've been guilty of myself, and I'm sorry for, is this:
The lack of explanation and clear reason/openness for something. This doesn't go only from player to player, character to character, or gm. It's more like..wait, you did this all of a sudden? Why? "No, I don't feel like talking about it right now." and then you don't feel like talking about it forever after.
The first example is that there's a change coming outa nowhere. It's put in place, set in marble and we go "Wait what? Why?" without answers or anything at all given. Then there goes again. Most of the times it's given or added to later. Sometimes it's not. And it's those kinda times I'm sad to see.
Another example, this time player to player, I got a really hard stab ic from a player. This could stay ic right? It turned into griefing afterward and in the end it took a paranoia in me way up to a whole new level. Clok'd never been psychologically torturous. Now it can be. It's been dealt with progressively though from what I heard, which is at least a relief. This is just one of those instances of player vs player I can think of now, not counting minor stuff I go "what?" about. If anyone want to be open to me, feel like sharing stuff with me, at least make us both comfortable ic and ooc, feel free to do so. All I need is harmoney at least on ooc level. You can be hell to Artus however you want ic. Just please keep out the griefing and be clear you don't mean anything ooc. It's tiring seeing ic gone ooc one gone ic stuff. Even I myself started to let ooc and ic matter slap as of recent because of confusing in the mixture.
Another thing is the drama. Loona said a good deal of point there. But I have something else to add. People have been sending me tells about some folks doing this doing that blah blah blah, expressed their discomfort, but never actually did anything to deal with it themselves. Like alright this player is so hard to handle and it makes me feel meh ooc. Tell Artus. I'm not reporting because I don't have logs...and when Artus steps in to be a speaker for you guys ooc, a realization slapped my face in return. I'm not a speaker for anyone guys. If you really feel like reporting or dealing with someone and it's your personal problem that you have evidents about, at least send me logs if you prefer me to report. But if better, and this I request of you because I'm really tired, please report it yourself. I love you all, alright? But I can't mediate or protect every of you at once. I don't control the mud and I'm not gonna take my personal opinion into account no matter what I think when dealing with this kinda problem anymore. I just wish to see stuff dealt with in a more civilized, less whiney and grief-stricken than this.

One of the problems with communication via text is that it does not 100% convey tone, body language or facial expressions. Some attempts have been made to fix some of this with emojis but some people find them offensive or immature. Also, screenreaders can't always interrupt them and they are often mis-used or overused.

Another problem is that a block of text intended to be one thing by the writer can often be read as another depending on the readers point of view.

Here is an example of a chat I made earlier in a attempt to offer some understanding of how this is affecting some among us and present an olive branch to the community:

Let me give you all a little tip about most GMs in many games. If you harp on something long enough and hard enough, people will eventually shut down and refuse to take any more criticism on the subject. Imagine it like a small child asking their dad for a toy. If the child keeps nagging, how do you think the dad will react? I ask that you please all be mature about this and give it some time. We have heard your concerns and ask that you give the changes a chance and hold off a while.

Player A will read that statement and see it as, "The GM is calling me a child! HOW DARE HE! I know what you are really doing! You guys have broken the game and despite my polite and well said comments you are refusing to hear me out! Never have I been so insulted by GMs refusing to hear from the community."

Player B will read the same statement and think, "Why are the GMs refusing to hear my side of the story? I want this game to be fun for everyone and they are clearly not taking my perspective into account. I will talk about it on chat, start a new post on the BBS, talk in private tells, start a group on discord, and talk about it within my private clique and really make sure that others feel as negatively about it as I so I can pressure the GMs to do what is right."

Player C will read it and think, "I don't agree with this change nor do I like the analogy given but it does convey the fact that the GMs are starting to shut down with all the negativity and sheer number of comments. Perhaps there is a better way to go about it but I will wait and see. Maybe this change isn't as bad as everyone says it is and all the commotion will fade in time."

Which do you think is a better interpretation and reaction?

No doubt there are many other perspectives but the truth of the matter is, we are all human. Imperfect with many flaws. As a group, the GMs are a good bunch of people. Everything we do is to try to better the game and when we make a decision that is unpopular we all handle it a little differently.

Completely understood Noctere! The two responses I would have are these:
1 - I think that when the metaphor used is that gm = parents and players = little children, it comes across to me as a little bit talking down and diminishing concerns. I agree with the point behind the chat, but language comparing players to infants probably isn't going to come across well.
2 - Part of the issue, I think, is that criticisms don't feel heard. In person, I could say something to you, and judge based on body language or verbal response or just physical proximity that you heard me. In the internet, that's not possible. If a chat or page or e-mail or bbs thread goes unheard, I can't assume it was read. Especially when I know how busy the team is. I might think it is being ignored, or disregarded, or that the team has (for genuine reason) had too much going on to read my thoughts. Again like I said above, not saying that my thoughts always automatically deserve to be considered. But if the first public response from the staff to a critical mass (and I agree that the way the players criticize is problematic) of criticism is a post comparing them to children throwing a tantrum, I don't think that communicates a willingness to hear and accept criticism, communication, or joint problem solving.

First of all, thank you, Alila, as always, for being so thoughtful as you are and posting this thread to provoke discussion about this issue in a more peaceful, composed manner than I was able to manage. I failed in that respect, and, as usual, you consistently are an example of what we should be trying to do-- not just as players-- but as individuals-- when it comes to sensitive discussions. Or discussions of any variety, really. So thank you for that.

I'm sure there's a fair deal of confusion about me bumping an old thread, and several expressed that confusion in that thread-- and I'd like to elaborate on my logic in it, and what I took from it as i was scrolling through old BBS posts this morning.

In addition, I just want to, well. Put my thoughts on a few things out there for consideration and discussion. I don't know if i'm right, or if i'm wrong, or somewhere in between, but I'd just like to say a few things, regardless. I hope they're just taken as they are and that nothing malicious or disingenuous is taken from my words. Just know that it's not at all my intent to make anyone upset or uncomfortable. It's like the staff ehre has said-- I'm only human, too, and unfortunately, my text-based communication skills do fail me from time to time. More frequently recently than I'd like.

I think it also goes without saying that the opinions posted above are absolutely reflective of my own beliefs and opinions. particularly Vidor's post. He encapsulated exactly how I feel in a lot more communicative a fashion than I was capable of personally.

But now, the thread I bumped, and some opinions and responses.

Loona wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:33 am I must admit a little confusion at the previous post. I would've never guessed you were feeling ignored. All the same, I'm sorry if that's how you feel.

Before I say anything else, thank you for responding. I sincerely appreciate it. This has less to do with me personally, and more to do with situations i've observed passively, or heard mention of after the fact. So, that's the truth, and take it for what it is. It also bares noting that I don't have any complaints about you, personally. So far as i've seen it, you're amazing. Consistently so.

That being said, I think ignored was a bad choice in wording in my bump-post. I think a more proper sentiment is that I feel as though the concerns of not just myself, but the player population as a whole are only heard so far as that it facilitates their continued silence. To elaborate;

I feel like we're only heard so that it can be said that we're heard, and I don't feel like any of our concerns are. Well. Actually taken seriously by the staff until we're in situations like this one. Situations Where a comparatively small concern (esp pendant timers) snowballed into something bigger as a result of an apparent unwillingness to do much more than hear people's complaints.

We all, I imagine, understand that the staff has differing priorities to the player base, and that they're going to spend what little time and attention they have at their disposal here on clok pursuing things that they see greater benefit in. But when repeated concerns go unaddressed for comparitively long stretches of time while other, seemingly less crucial fixes from player perspectives are made all the while, it can leave one disheartened. And this happens regularly.

Loona wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:33 am I love watching you guys play, and, while it's a lot of work designing plots in ways that is fun for everybody, sometimes we fall short of that mark. I'm sorry if this has ever been the case for you or any other players. I wish nothing but the best for you in the path that you walk.

I think it also bares noting that I cannot begin to understand the amount of work that the staff puts into plotting. And again, for that, I'm extremely thankful. I don't think that there's anyone around here, player or staff, that would realistically expect for the mark to be hit by their perception every single time, either. But I think 100% of us would say that you guys do a fantastic job, and you try as hard as you can, and we do appreciate you, even if we do have concerns of our own at times.

But the execution in some regards, like player participation, and the lack of clear communication regarding player concerns, so far as I've seen, is troubling-- particularly in reference to the Church of Light. This is a game, after all. Part of having a game is having players. And there was a moment in chat several days back where it was explicitly stated (through a mischannel communication) That the players should, "Feel lucky they're even being involved at all rather than complain about the result."

It's communications like that one-- intentional or not-- that linger in the minds of the player base. It makes us wonder how much of that stuff is said without us having any awareness of such, and it makes us wonder how much agency we actually have in this game we love.

I'm going to say more about this with specific examples-- but I wanted to address the responses to my bumping of the post, first, before I went back to the past and highlighted the things I saw from it.

artus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:39 am It's just the fact that sometimes when things get hardcore and players try to voice it, we get shut down in a way that actually scares some people (me to an extent as I myself have ptsd over this kinda stuff but I know someone has it worse). But I usually wait til you guys cool down first before I start to talk. I may have been overboard and inappropriate myself, in which case I'm sorry.

This is more reflective of my concerns. Not only when things get "hardcore" even-- just in general. We're usually told to post something here on the BBS, or send an email, but usually, we're never given any response to either.

artus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:39 am And really, thank you for the pendent change. It really helps. You guys have been working hard on everything. While some plots, like this scam thing, are hard to play along while it's still active, and some plots take forever to continue, all I can do, as player, is provide people with something that makes it easier for them to live through the plot til it finally progresses again. I hate seeing people go, and I appreciate everyone here, old and new. If you need anything and I can help, feel free. Also, can't leave because this heartfelt jumble or soundpack is smiling at me whenever I turn on my laptop, ha. I'll be annoying you guys forever on here.

I think this is also representative of how the vast majority of players feel around here. We appreciate you. We appreciate the work you're putting in. We're having fun, we're eager for more. We're serving our roles. But when we're shut down, or dismissed, or our concerns are seemingly repeated into the void, it makes us less enthusiastic. Less patient. Less willing to accept the, "Just have faith" sorts of responses. At least, from my perspective.

We understand that we can't dictate it all, or have everything our way, and that our agency isn't the only agency at stake or concern, here. We also understand there's a lot of players compared to staffers, and that the time of each staffer available for clok is finite. But all that I think the majority of us are asking is some indication that we're not just... You know. Being dismissed as background noise.

Alila wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:41 am Hi,

While it is true a significant number of semi-consistently frustrated players and reticent developers may be symptoms of something deeper than one or two devlogs, it feels a little unfair or not doing them justice to poke an older issues thread. Maybe there are echoes of it buried here, but in many of the respects this thread concerns itself with, CLOK has well and properly made improvements.

With respect, I disagree. Though the grinding has certainly improved, and the culture overall has become a lot more friendly until recently, I would argue that the thread in question was worth a read for the quotes posted below after I'm done replying to this quote-- Whether i'm right in that position is debatable, but there are a few specific examples here that I hear from people rather frequently.

Alila wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:41 am The social atmosphere has been truthfully the most volatile I have ever experienced it, publicly on chat and semi-privately through tels, and it would be nice to discuss any communication problems which might be leading to all of this discomfort and negativity, but maybe making a tangent of it here is not the most eloquent solution?

-Alila

To this, I most certinly agree. It wasn't the best solution. It was sort of heavy-handed and lazy and emotional, and for that, i'm sorry. I'll try to do better than to take that road next time around, but, it is what it is now, unfortunately. But I do agree-- I was a bit crass, it was a bit unfair, and it's not the best way to approach things. This thread's a way better attempt at that.

Now, to the BBS post itself, and why I bumped it. What exactly I saw:

Elystole wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:51 pm Unfortunately, rather than accept the fact that the game is grindy and take steps to make it less grindy, it seems staff has instead taken the approach that people who are grinding are playing the game "wrong" so they decided to make grinding harder.

Though the concept of grinding isn't so finnicky as it used to be, I think this portion of the first post of the thread highlights a, by my perception, underlying staff philosophy in terms of how problems are addressed on Clok.

"I see you're doing this thing in a way I don't like. Instead of discussing it, I'm going to change it so people can't do it anymore, because it's my game. If you don't like it, there's the door."

Whether this is the truth on how the staff approaches problems, I can't say. But it certainly can appear that way, at times. Here's a recent, prominant example.

Problem: "I don't like people calling ESP Pendants espers."

Solution: "I've completely removed the words ESP from the game. Now no one can call them that."

Elystole wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:51 pm So things started getting janky: People trained offense in defensive tactics because it reduced their chances of getting hurt. People trained defense in offensive tactics because, while they were still getting hit more, the weaker mobs do less damage than the crazy mobs at higher skill levels with their special abilities, devastating attacks, or other shenanigans. And people who were supposed to be light armor combatants were training in heavy armor because it reduced their chances of getting hurt.

Unfortunately, the GMs, instead of looking at this situation and saying, "Wow. Our game is really, really grindy. Maybe we should fix that?" doubled-down on the situation:
No more offensive skill gains if you are in a defensive tactic!
No more defensive skill gains if you are in an offensive tactic!
That mob is too good for training because it has many weak attacks? No more gains from that mob's attacks at all!

Once again-- though the topic of grinding isn't as topical as it was in this thread, and the mention of tactics is no longer accurate, I think the underlying philosophy in the decision making remains consistent, even all this time later.

That philosophy being: "Problem? Let me just make it impossible without warning or discussion. There. Problem solved."

Example: "People are grinding an awful lot on these ice golems because they're not really all that hazardous. Pretty decent skill gains for the skill level, pretty low risk for that same skill level."

Solution: "No more ice golems. Go grind somewhere else. This area's decoration, now."

Example: "Two people exploited a mechanic, maxed out their stealth, and killed a guildmaster."

Solution: "Nobody can gain pickpocketing skill from other PCs."

Problem: The Church, I guess.

Solution: Nuke it with a week's notice.

In fairness, this church thing. That's probably not what it is-- but it certainly feels that way. And I don't even have a church PC.

Elystole wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:51 pm And the above are just some examples of a wider trend to nerf fast, nerf hard, and nerf often. I can't speak to the specifics of the other guilds, but I imagine it is similar to my experience with the Outriders.

Honestly, that is how CLOK has felt for a while now: Things just keep getting taken away from players while existing problems are left unresolved. Leatherworking and mining have been broken for at least two years, since I started playing, but rather than fix those things we got more nerfs.

But we have development time for generalized abilities and combat changes that penalize players for trying to train their skills in a skill-based game. We don't have development time for things that make the game more fun, but we have development time for things that make the game feel more like work.

Absolutely this. Once again, the topical topic has changed, but the mentality remains the same.

-We don't have time for a leatherworking rework, because we're doing something else.
-We don't have time for a housing rework, because we're doing something else.
-We don't have time for an herbalism rework, because we're doing something else.
-We don't have time for NPCMail, we're doing something else.

The something else: (I feel like a few are missing here. So there are probably a few that didn't get copy/pasted.)
* The prompt has received a major overhaul. Details can be found on the BBS in the Game Text Changes topic. http://clok.contrarium.net/bbs/viewtopi ... =35&t=7449 There are plans for future changes to allow players to fine-tine the prompt to their tastes. -- Jirato 16:53, 4 June 2021
* Fixed some typos with receiving telepathic messages when using the Mummer Telepathy ability or certain super secret GM things. -- Jirato 20:56, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
* The TRAVEL command has been updated with points of interest. You may now optionally specify SLOW, PAUSE, or QUIET when you type TRAVEL (direction) to slow down when coming across a point of interest, pausing travel completely, or squelching point of interest text. Example: TRAVEL NORTH SLOW -- Jirato 18:32, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
* Due to the large number of players we can have at peak hours, and also to help remove some riln from the economy, ESP pendants will now gradually wear out over time. The rate in which they wear out is accelerated with usage of the gray channel. -- Jirato 12:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
* A new command, TRAVEL, can be used to automatically follow a wilderness road until you reach the end or a fork in the road, it can be interrupted prematurely with STOP. -- Jirato 17:35, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
* The Never Page on the wiki has been updated to include a mention to stop asking for netherbane for Wyrvardn. . . -- Jirato 15:18, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
(Made sure we were specific on that one. I know the Wyrvardn have asked a lot of times.)
* The IGNORE command has been updated for use with nicknames and guest names. Please note that if you ignore a guest name, it may be re-assigned to a different person later. The command is now re-enabled. -- Jirato 19:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
* The IGNORE command is temporarily unavailable pending upcoming changes. -- Jirato 18:49, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
* The maximum number of items that can be in a room's "contents" (on the floor) has been lowered from 2000 to 1000. -- Jirato 12:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
* The main AI loop will now pause during room backups. -- Jirato 11:16, 24 May 2021 (UTC)May 2021 (PDT)
* Templars and Monks may now use the teach command to teach others in their guild abilities that they know. However, in order to do so the teacher must be very skilled with thaumaturgy. Syntax: TEACH <NAME> ability -- Noctere 8:33, 20 May 2021 (PDT)
* It is no longer possible for Event Staff to spawn more than 5 critters per minute, and GMs to spawn more than 10 critters per minute. -- Jirato 20:15, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
* Corrected a bug with the abilities file that made Weapon Specialization: Firearms not require the Ranged Combat Focus ability as a pre-requisite. -- Jirato 14:18, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
* Temporary event caverns (spiders, rare resources etc) in player mines will no longer automatically collapse and delete themselves once spawned. A potential bug has been identified with them that was mis-ordering mine room numbers. This is a temporary solution until a better one is found. -- Noctere 4:35, 16 May 2021 (PDT)
* The construction in the Haiban Forging Cubbies has concluded. Workers may resume their efforts there as long as they pay the appropriate workyard fee. Also, the temporary workyard tent has been taken down. Sorry for the wait! -- Noctere 18:02, 15 May 2021 (PDT)
* It is no longer possible to send a REPORT over 2000 characters long. -- Jirato 20:54, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
* Players will now accrue a "bathing" morale bonus when visiting the inner portions of the Shadgard bathhouse. This stacks with other morale bonuses such as gathering spot bonuses. -- Jirato 14:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* It is now possible to forage for flint in rooms with shallow water. -- Jirato 12:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* The PARTNER command used for sales cart partners has also been updated with the changes from the last several devlog entries. -- Jirato
* Checking sales carts from characters that exist in the legacy character file system but not the character database (not yet imported to an account) will no longer result in red error text. -- Jirato 11:36, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* It is no longer possible to use sales carts in rooms tagged with (gathering spot). -- Jirato 11:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Fixed an issue preventing sales carts from reading character data to determine if guild dues were paid. -- Jirato 11:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
* Added performance optimization to burning items/room lighting. -- Jirato 14:43, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
(For complete list, please visit http://clok.contrarium.net/wiki/index.p ... opment_Log)

Don't get me wrong. A lot of these changes are expected, or needed. But they exemplify the differing concerns of the players/staff, and how the valley in between is difficult to negotiate.

Elystole wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:51 pm And that is the crux of the issue: Repeatedly, in discussions with other players, I have asked them, "What are the GMs thinking?"

It was an honest question. I work on a software engineering team now, and what drives our decisions regarding the services we provide the university - even though most of our customers don't pay us - is the value generated for the customer. We need to make their jobs easier and more pleasant. On a game, customer value is how much fun they are having, so to the extent that the changes to CLOK have made the game less fun than it was two years ago I have honestly wondered what the GMs were thinking.

As the guy that's usually one of the first people to defend the staff when they face criticism, I'm honestly starting to feel similarly. I constantly find myself asking, "Why?" and never really hear that why i'm looking for. It's not that I really disagree with a lot of the things that are going on on the whole. It's just that we're often so in the dark as to what is getting priority when, and whether or whether not my concerns are even valid ones.

Elystole wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:19 pm The key difference between these suggestions and the changes that I have seen on CLOK over the past two years is what really convinced me to stop playing: My suggestions see wonky player behavior as symptom of a problem (the game is too grindy) and instead of punishing the players tries to fix the grind. CLOK sees wonky player behavior as the problem and tries to punish the players to make them stop it. Those are two fundamentally different design philosophies.

One focuses on how to make the game more fun. Another focuses on compliance.

The topic of note isn't the same, but as I keep saying like a broken record-- this is the sort of methodology that's still in practice. At least, from my perception. Everyone can feel free to disagree if they like. It's why it's an opinion. What I will say is that the word "punishes" in regard to the players is a bit stiff. I don't think that's the right word. But the impression could certainly be lifted.

Alexander wrote: ↑Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:38 pm Simply put, I feel my character has no way to meaningfully accomplish the duties to which he is so strictly expected to adhere.

Alexander has participated in excellent roleplay scenarios with others, and has acted in a number of events over the years. My experiences in CLOK have been wonderful, and I shall never forget them: They are greatly appreciated, and I give the GMs who run CLOK my sincerest thanks and gratitude. At this point, however, playing Alexander seems a chore, and a fruitless one at that. This has nothing to do with skills or grinds, for that is long in the past for me. I might communicate the crux of the matter thus: It is far easier to disrupt and destroy than it is to organize and create. When the villains of CLOK get up to their schemes, there is nothing that can truly be done about it. We may face them in battle, if we manage to get them to stay still long enough. If by perseverance and good fortune we manage to slay an evildoer, we are rewarded with a mere few minutes of respite before the villain will revive and return to their devious efforts, often with a helping of spiteful mockery over the pendants. There is no reason for villains to fear those whom oppose them, for there is nothing that can be done to truly deter their disruptive efforts. Conversely, of course, there is no real reason for anyone to fear death from a villain either, for we all can return to life mere minutes after being slain. The villain, however, is always able to disrupt, destroy, and ruin in some fashion or another, while we who oppose them are merely subject to their whims, able only to react.

It can be argued that this is good, as it provides something to do for those who choose to champion goodness. As I previously stated, however, there is nothing one truly can do. Those on the side of good can at best deter a villain for some few minutes before they may get right back at whatever they were doing before being slain or driven off. Of course, alternatives would be welcome, such as taking prisoner and delivering the offender to a jail or somesuch, but I imagine this would be ill-received, as it would ruin the play experience for the villain as they are then stuck in a cell with nothing to do.

Combined with the expectations laid upon Templar in particular to deal with these troublemakers that are, in reality, impossible to stop, my play time feels like an effort in frustrating, enforced futility. Were I ever to ignore the troubles and attempt to dedicate some time to my own pursuits, it would be seen as dereliction of duty - and rightly so, in an in-character sense. When I have in the past refused to rise to the taunts of villains, I have received clearly judgmental glances, comments, and mutterings, and naturally, my foes will laugh as they scorn and mock the Templar, saying that we are hypocrites as we ignore our duty to deal with them. This is why over time I became quieter and quieter, not announcing my presence on the pendants and even occasionally hiding from the Who listings: To simply have some time to engage in my own pursuits, rather than futilely chasing the undying or being talked to about the undying and asked what I intended to do about the impossible problem. It seems that due to the impossibility to deal with villains in any meaningful way, I and my peers are reduced to submitting ourselves to the taunts and manipulations of our foes, required to give them all of our time and attention despite the complete inability for us to do anything meaningful to deter them.

I suspect this is why Templar turnover is so high: Not because of the strict guidelines and expectations of our order, but rather because we are incapable of meaningfully seeing to our duties the vast majority of the time, and are consequently often judged or mocked for it. Save for guild tasks and the occasional event run by the GM staff with NPCs that are not undying or are allowed to be captured, we are simply incapable of succeeding against any significant evildoers. From an in-character perspective, of course, a Templar will strive on despite the apparent hopelessness of the situation. From an out-of-character perspective, it is an exercise in frustration that eventually wears away at a player's enjoyment of the game. I will add that I am sure it affects others as well, particularly Outriders, Wyrvardn, and Assassins.

As a close second to all of the above, I will say that I believe the playerbase has become spread too thin, both in location and in motive. Once upon a time, an event impacting town impacted the entire playerbase, as they all lived within that town, and thus cared for its well-being and worked toward its protection and improvement. An invasion of nethrim may not be the forte of a Utasa, or a Thief, or a Dwaedn Wyr, but they would help nonetheless, because their home was threatened - at the least, they would care about it. If the cold winter caused a food shortage in Shadgard, the majority of the playerbase would come together to seek a resolution, because it affected them all. Today, any one event or scenario is only likely to attract the attention of a small, specific crowd, while the rest are either disinterested with no motivation to involve themselves, or are actively discouraged from getting involved as outsiders, and told to mind their own business.

In closing, I will say that I am not calling for any sort of change or revolution regarding these things, firstly because CLOK simply is what it is and I enjoyed it for many years despite these issues, and secondly because I cannot see any realistic solutions that I believe would be widely accepted by the playerbase. I wish CLOK, its GMs, and its players all the best as it continues on, and I am sure I will continue to visit from time to time, even if via a different character.

This is one of the most agreeable posts I've ever read, beginning to end. It seemingly encapsulates the struggle i'm constantly hearing about on part of all of the people who play church characters. And nuking the church, in particular, didn't really do anything but exasperate those issues exponentially. Church specific stuff aside, he makes fantastic points all around. This post, out of all of them, is the one I think aged the finest. These are all complaints that are still absolutely, 100% valid. Maybe more so than they were previously.
b

In closing summation, I guess the whole of what I'm trying to say can best be summarized in a few short sentences. Or at least, I can try to make it go that way.

Help us feel heard. Help us listen, and help us understand. We want to be patient, we don't want to bother, and we especially don't want to put undue pressure on any of ya'll. But communication would help a lot in terms of a lot of issues that've gone on. It's hard to maintain that patience and that good attitude when there's so much.. Disconnect. Between players and staff.

Anywho, I've said my peace. It's a lot, thanks for being patient. But i've tried, and failed, in some ways, to express my thoughts. If I feel like there's more I need to say, I'll certainly chime in. But thank you all for hearing me out, and thank you all for doing what you do, regardless of how I might feel about it at times.

-Prism

Hi,

Thank you for contributing, everyone. Maybe it is worth mentioning that there is a certain reasoning behind the title of this thread. Language is a powerful tool, something which a community of roleplay-interested people can surely appreciate. Often it is not only the content of a message which is important to understand and focus on, but its presentation as well. It is true gms are people, but maybe it is more true to say everyone here on CLOK, excepting maybe CLOKBot, are people. I have noticed at least one mysterious gm mention certain actions or lines of commentary are disheartening, and this is an entirely acceptable way to feel! In fact, the gms feeling as discouraged as the players in some instances is part of the motivation behind starting this thread--I care for everyone here equally, and it is lovely to see both contributing here. We are all part of the same community, after all. But maybe, then, it is also acceptable for players to feel disheartened by similar reactions or responses to things? Text not conveying body language or tone easily is not so much an excuse to ignore them, as it is a reason to be more careful with what we say and how we say it.

So it is this kind of transparent back and forth is the essence of good communication: posing opinions, in this case regarding perceived problems or situations one is struggling with, and attempting to explain your position while being open to the concerns of others.
The two major topics I can identify here so far seem to be some variation of:

1. A disjunction between players and gms regarding acceptance to change.
2. A forming of cliques or groups which might be proving detrimental to the enjoyment of CLOK.

Both are very intricate, but the first was harder to phrase concisely in a way which is being fair to both players and gms. Where players might be feeling as if their concerns and actions are not being heard, maybe gms feel as if they are being noted and seen--perhaps there is a worry of building expectations every small emote and think needs a response? Where players are seeing cumbersome changes, maybe gms are seeing a lack of willingness to try new things? Where players are seeing a hesitance to accept feedback, maybe gms are feeling the quality of feedback tends to be not so useful on average?

How much of this feels right or wrong? What would help make player feedback not feel like griping? How much criticism is breaking this toy? What would help your feedback feel valued as a player or a gm, in a world where we are playing a game and may otherwise lead busy lives? A possible useful transparency idea is to have some kind of thinkcheck or npcmailcheck command, a little like bugcheck, where things players have submitted to gms can be flagged as unread or read, so as to create some connection between being seen and feeling heard? Is any of this incorrect or inaccurate or unreasonable?

The second, as raised by Loona and seemingly echoed by Alexander so many years ago, is the creation of player cliques. Admittedly I strive not to be very involved in the ooc someone told someone about this from this--I play CLOK with chat and question disabled and only glance at the Discord when not actively engaged in anything CLOK related. Some degree of ic group-forming, especially given the current dark against light plot, seems expected? Maybe possibly even encouraged--is this intentional? Maybe this is another situation where a little more clarity about the direction of the game might be appreciated by staff and players alike?

While I cannot speak so much for the out of character side of things, please remember we are here to tell a story. Your characters may be in it to win, but at a storytelling rp level, there is not really "winning", in the same sense people do not play tabletop games to "win." Are there any personal experiences with this? Is everyone feeling as if they are playing to tell a story as opposed to winning the current combat encounter? No? Maybe? How are they different to you?

This is a very new thread with, hopefully, plenty of room to evolve and discuss. Maybe this list is wrong--please feel free to say so. Is there something missing? Something in excess? I am only one person attempting to make sense of things and may very well be mistaken; it would be wonderful to hear more from anyone with an impression of the game.

Thank you,
-Alila

It kinda adds to when I mentioned "no explanation what so ever" in my previous post, to add some points you guys demonstrated. Let's say some change is added and people go "wait what? Why?" like I said above. When we started storming chat with questions, some gms were like I don't wanna talk about it and I have enoughof this now. Rip opinions. While it didn't bother me to the point of being upset, it did make some people feel uneasy to open and say anything anymore. Some mentioned personally that they were "scared" to voice their concerns/opinions to gms when gms are like that. Your moodiness scares them. You seem inapproachable etc. As clok has always been a warm community, I wish not to see this vibe around at all. But it already happens now, to bring to the table of concern. Really, this shakes me quite a lot.

Well, I tried, but I'm not going to be able to respond to this thread without letting my emotions get the better of me, I've already had multiple anxiety attacks tonight trying to read through all this.

Just please keep in mind, I'm one freaking guy. I do this as a hobby, I pay thousands of dollars a year out of pocket to keep CLOK running, while maintaining a healthy relationship with my wife, a full time job, a healthy relationship with friends, and other hobbies. I'm sorry that CLOK doesn't have a dedicated full time developer who can spend 40+ hours a week cranking out banger updates, but the majority of the time when I sit down to work on CLOK, I'm going to work on what catches my interest, what I feel I can accomplish in the limited amount of time I have available for it, and what I honestly and truly feel is better for the game as a whole in the long term.

I absolutely suck at confrontation and I strongly dislike direct feedback and criticisms. I would much rather passively observe player reactions from a distance and adjust accordingly rather than read through a wall of text explaining why my latest work sucks.

I am not immovable on my design choices, though I do have reasons behind them, which I do not feel always need to be shared. As this is my game and my hobby, I don't feel like I need to elaborately explain and justify every little thing I do to it.

I will at least respond to the pendant change, as we've already had one player threaten to quit over it as "Any game where the dev's actively trying to limit player communication is self-destructive" or something like that, I forget what exactly she said.

The amount of mundane chatter and constant spam on the ESP network makes it too hard to focus on meaningful RP and in-person IC interactions. Over the last couple weeks of actually doing RP and interacting with players as Alaryn and Lyran, which admittedly I suck at and always feel awkward and uncomfortable with to begin with, it's been nigh impossible to focus on anything with the constant chit-chat. Thinking of this from a new players perspective, I believe that it has the potential to turn some new players away from the game. CLOK has peaked over 25 players several times recently, and I'd like to see that number eventually double or even triple, but in order to accommodate that, ESP needs to be dialed back. The goal of the recent change is to encourage people to think before they use ESP and use it in a meaningful way not just use it for a mundane "Hello, how's the weather?" chatter.

It's not the justification part that's the problem here, Jirato. It's constructive criticism that comes with it, the things that would make you less stressed out before you do something and have people go "What the hell?" at you in the end. Also, I'm surprised why you didn't tune gray to shut it off. Excessive communication is normal in any mud, even more so when rp is set in place. Clok is a big world. with big number of people. The number will only double or triple when gameplay doesn't kill players. Just putting my perspective in here. I know you use your money for this. I know you only have time for it when you're free enough. At the same time, we players are happy to help out however we can. And I bet you already know it. Right, it's your game. But having a game where you're not the only player, more so that you lead the playerbase, means not only your opinion matters. Isn't it better to see something cool on the table before it gets nailed in place? Isn't it better to look at the codes and ask around or offer an idea then put it in place rather than nailing it and get yelled at later for breaking the game. You're one guy. You have one opinion to yourself. But you have more than 20 people running after what your opinion makes. We don't like making you uncomfortable as much as you don't like when your work gets criticised/talked negatively about. Isn't it better that communications between us is established before judgment is reached?
Just putting my sense as a player out here. Seriously, the it's my game and I don't have to justify part made me cringe. Please reach out, man, seriously. You're not alone in it.

Jirato wrote: ↑Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:40 pm I will at least respond to the pendant change, as we've already had one player threaten to quit over it as "Any game where the dev's actively trying to limit player communication is self-destructive" or something like that, I forget what exactly she said.

Hi, that was me. It's not a threat to quit, it's a most likely outcome unless something changes. It's not over the pendant change, but a long series of red flags I've seen since I've started playing, many found on this very forum. Your post adds another one, that you're incapable of reading player feedback without having an anxiety attack, but you are in charge of the MUD... frankly, that's unhealthy for you as well.

When I play a MUD, I expect to be in for the long haul. I'm not just here to play for a couple weeks. Unfortunately, I don't see this MUD having a successful long haul. The biggest complaint from friends who've tried this game is that it's too laggy. Personally, I don't care so much about that, but this ESP network change cuts directly into the game's second problem, that it's utterly hostile to any newcomers with the only solution often being to ask other players for advice.

This is not the only red flag, and in fact your overall behavior of "don't criticize me!" found throughout the forums is the biggest one. If you can't take criticism, and you yourself claim this is true, then how can I possibly trust you to do anything? Well, perhaps if every decision you made was great, I could, but you've also got a history of going "people are playing my game wrong, let me butcher it with an axe so they can do better." I'm not here to play your game the way you want it to be played, write an AI for that.

In fact, I'm most likely not going to be here at all. Bye!

Jirato, is it possible to find a way that you can be happy and not have your anxiety triggered while still letting players feel like they are being heard. Maybe you can unload the job of going over the bbs, and responding to player emails to another GM who can sort of consolidate player comments, feedback, requests and complaints into something that will feel less direct and confrontational? That way it is not your responsibility but that of someone who is a little more able to shrug these things off a bit more? I say this, because while I love CLOK, you and your mental health matter to me way way more, and I feel like if things continue down this road it will eventually become a choice between one or the other.
You'd still be able to observe from afar, and work on what you wish, but the sometimes caustic player interactions would just be someone else's problem. And yeah, i know it is a small team, so I know i am probably throwing one of you under a sometimes very angry buss, but I really do think it would lead to a much better experience for everyone involved.

Hi,

Thank you for your impression of the game, Eliza. It is sad to know it was poor enough for you to start a forum account and share it in this way, but maybe here is the kindest place to have done so. Should you have any advice or ideas to make things feel more friendly, it would be nice to read them. Maybe if they were phrased a little more politely than your above post I would be very thankful? But it is understandable of you feel frustrated and uninterested and simply want to leave. Hopefully you can find more enjoyment elsewhere.

I am so sorry this caused you anxiety and stress, Jirato. Hopefully it makes sense we truly care about your health and wellbeing, and none of this was meant in a negative light, even if it is only on an intellectual level. However, it seems reasonable to say this thread was started with the expectation emotions on all sides were not especially placid or harmonious, so maybe there is some comfort in knowing you are not alone if any of this provoked an emotional response. Thank you for your honesty and for having enough interest in this game to find things which are exciting and nice to work on.

However, as Artus and Preiman explained, and as it seems worth reiterating: maybe this as inspired by a confluence of recent events, the pendants being one of them, but the hope is to address something deeper and more meaningful to all of us. Everyone here wants to see CLOK be a better game--never from the worst comment to the most sarcastic remark has it felt like anyone has maliciously intended to say they want to see CLOK fail in some critical way. At worst it has been "maybe CLOK is not the game for me," and if there was a game which was perfect for everyone, then there would be no other games. It is healthy to embrace the limitations and demands of CLOK along with the things about it which make you happy and proud to be its head developer. Yes receiving criticism can be hard; certainly it can be a challenge to create something, present it to the world, and feel as if the world wants nothing more than to weather it away into something unrecognizable. But this is not something you alone struggle with: any player who has made a character and writes them into this world understands how you must feel, and any gm who hosts events shaped by the drive and whimsy of these characters can hopefully relate. There is even a microcosm of this, maybe, in the current struggle between Harbingers and the Church of Light.

Players are not hear to make you sad, please understand this. Reading this thread, for the most part it feels reasonable to say we want to know how to help you and help CLOK; how to provide constructive advice and feedback in a way which is not harmful to you or anyone else. It can be nice to passively observe, I personally often struggle with finding it many times easier to fade into the background and instinctually prefer remaining quiet. I love people and everything they can bring to a metaphorical table, but for a very long time my greatest wish has been to disappear and make the world a better place for it. Instead human contact, virtual or otherwise, can be as reassuring as it is frequently demanding.

Unfortunately, it seems as if your position is even more demanding in this regard. Can you please consider telling us how we can make any of it easier for you and the gms, and maybe entertain some ideas about how gms can help players feel more at ease trying to help? This can be a symbiotic process. To work with Vidor's food metaphor, my hope is someday we can say "Hi Jirato, your pasta was delicious, but have you considered using a different kind of cheese to better complement the other flavors?" and you can focus on the fact your pasta is delicious and not a different cheese possibly potentially maybe but not certainly tasting nicer.

To be more straightforward, for your understanding and trust that a suggestion is both merely a suggestion and not a demand or a fact, and not typically meant as a destructive or detractive force to your efforts, but a constructive additive one. It is difficult to begrudge a well-communicated no, and while there is certainly such a thing as too much indecision becoming an obstacle to productivity, maybe too little engagement is veering far in the other direction. Is it reasonable to ask to attempt to look for some kind of balance? Would an in-between measure as Preiman proposed feel more helpful instead?

Thank you for reading, writing, and considering.

-Alila

In the interest in noting like for like, posts like Eliza's are immature, inappropriate, and unhelpful. Knowing that the GMs get that sort of thing in public makes me realize that those sorts of comments are likely more numerous in private e-mails or in second hand hearsay.

I'm not a gm, so I can't imagine how that feels. But if the way I rp'd a character met with that sort of public hyperbolic complaint, I would have to develop a thicker skin and stop responding to feedback. So in a way, I am thankful to Eliza for the empathy-creating post, toxic as it was.

I also note that the particularly problematic portions of posts seem to be when we put our perceptions of other peoples' positions in quotation marks. As an example above, the comment about "I see people are playing my game wrong." It comes across disrespectful and only builds conflict because that is, in fact, not what the GMs have said, and putting our perspective in someone else's quotations only breeds conflict. This is the sort of feedback and information I want to capture as I figure out how to create this communication bridge. Because that's what it is -- a way to get from point A to point B. And it can't happen alone or just because of one person.

Jirato, I am thankful to call you a friend. I still remember, us both being in roughly the same part of the country, you reaching out to me in spring of 2016 during a really bad storm to make sure I was okay. You are such a great person, and seeing the way that feedback is impacting you genuinely makes me sad. CLOK is a place where I can have fun, and I want it to be a place where you can have fun in whatever role you are interested in participating. The purpose of my first post was genuinely to understand how I as a player can give you my thoughts without triggering you, or anyone on the staff. I appreciate the idea of watching and seeing how things play out, but given that there are dozens of changes that could be made on any given day, and that RL comes first, the input to output for that sort of communication doesn't seem to be efficient.

I read Jirato's post as referring to being conflict-averse when he reads feedback. If my understanding of that comment is wrong, please let me know. That makes me think that feedback comes across to him as conflict. I have never once wanted my feedback to be conflict. Rather, I intend it to be collaborative. I would love any advice the team has on how to contribute without coming across as combative.

I also totally understand Jirato's comment that this is, after all, his project and he does not need to explain himself. A certain George R. R. Martin quote comes to mind about not being peoples' ***** -- he would write when he wrote. But when the language at login on CLOK even welcomes ideas and suggestions, when the BBS is a place for those ideas and suggestions, and when players are told to post on that BBS, the culture of CLOK seems to be one seeking input. So it is a bit uncomfortable to be told to provide feedback and then to perceive that the feedback is unwanted.

I also read Jirato's post regarding running and paying for CLOK as feeling a little lonely. That makes me sad. If the donations opened up, I would donate in a heartbeat. I also imagine that, if the team were willing, players would be more than happy to help with building, critter creation, small events, and item alteration for donation perks, if those perks were brought back. The point is, that the staff is not alone, and that I (and I believe the players) are eager to help.

I, too, just wanted to take a moment to apologize.

I'm not nearly so gifted with the use of words as some of my peers in this thread, and that shows. I wish I could capture half of the message that they've encapsulated-- because I feel like i've really fallen short in my own attempts.

Jirato, I'm sincerely sorry if I've acted as an undue burden or stresser to you in any capacity. As others have said, and I'll absolutely echo-- My absolute last intention is to be mean-spirited, or cause stress/anxiety. But regardless of my intentions, I definitely came across that way in certain respects, and that's messed up. I can only hope that moving forward, I can improve in this regard and contribute less stress with my words, and more value.

Though I can't so easily phrase things as others have in this thread, I absolutely echo their sentiments and intentions. If there's anything I can do, in any way, i'm absolutely happy to put it forward. I'm so passionate because, like others, Clok was here for me in a time when I genuinely needed it. You, other staffers, and all of the players here have crafted an environment that's absolutely magnetic, and comfortable, and enthralling to be a part of, both OOC and IC. My passions run so high because I love it here. I can only imagine the amount of love you've got for it in your own heart, doing everything you do despite the burdens you face. So again-- thank you. It's not always easy, but it's made an undying mark on my life, at the least.

I sincerely hope the best for you, everyone else on staff, and all of the players here, too. Anxiety and stress are big enough parts of our actual lives. I hate to bring it here.

Considering I seem to keep putting my foot in my mouth, I think I'll leave further discussion in this thread up to my more accomplished peers, unless anyone would like me to say anything else in elaboration at a later time.

Regardless, thank you all for hearing me out, and high hopes for the future of Clok.

-Prism/Spectrum

vidor wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:45 am In the interest in noting like for like, posts like Eliza's are immature, inappropriate, and unhelpful. Knowing that the GMs get that sort of thing in public makes me realize that those sorts of comments are likely more numerous in private e-mails or in second hand hearsay.

I'm not a gm, so I can't imagine how that feels. But if the way I rp'd a character met with that sort of public hyperbolic complaint, I would have to develop a thicker skin and stop responding to feedback. So in a way, I am thankful to Eliza for the empathy-creating post, toxic as it was.

Nope, not you calling someone out who was literally responding to being publicly trounced by the owner of this game and misquoting her. Here's what was actually said:

[CHAT - (Eliza) Eliza]: I think Clok isn't for me. ^^
Eliza
[CHAT - Vaelin (Discord)]: Thank you for trying the game out, Eliza. Sad to see you go though.
[CHAT - (Eliza) Eliza]: Personally I just think any MUD dev who sees player interaction and tries to reduce it is trying to murder their MUD. :x

The only thing toxic around here is the fact that this behavior continues on the part of the developers. Previous waves of players literally have had the same conversation with Jirato circa 2014/2015. If I don't get banned for this post you're welcome to hit me up to see the Skype logs and emails.

I thought yall were finnaly going to break the cycle thats been on forever in this game, but then.. here you all are saying sorry and i apologise. Back to the starting line. Elizas post was not toxic or mean or immature. it was real. Same for many of yours. I am similar player who didnt last long, i saw red flags and others were pointed out to me. Like this admins cant handle criticism well. I left for other pastures but a friend stayed for longer, then left too. But we still watch the show unfold and here we thought finnaly, real talk and somethign will be done. Until everyone slept and felt guilty making admins feel bad and now they are apologising instead enabling this game to keep wilting from its problems tha people cant bring up because the admins will blow up if they do! THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS FIXED.

Critical feedback is not mean and toxic. Its not something to apologise for if given constructably and respectfully, and it was. But admins said it was annoying and frustrating and hurt there feelings and players are now apologising for giving their critical feedback. What???? Im disappointed because i had hope that this game would finnaly get better and i could log in and play again someday. Please. Stand by your opinions on the game. Dont apologise for it when admin says they dont like it. Or its just be another revolution in the cycle and nothing changes. You apologise and admins think ha, see i was right, they admint they were being toxic and selfish and now their feedback is no longer valid.

JIRATO: nobody wants you to feel bad or have anxiety. This is not about you. Its about the game people love and want better. They want YOU the admin to know their feelings on the game and ask you what might be done about it? Do not act as they are your enemies just because theyre unhappy with some things. Listen to your players. Stop making it personal about you.

sedrik wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:21 am I thought yall were finnaly going to break the cycle thats been on forever in this game, but then.. here you all are saying sorry and i apologise. Back to the starting line. Elizas post was not toxic or mean or immature. it was real. Same for many of yours. I am similar player who didnt last long, i saw red flags and others were pointed out to me. Like this admins cant handle criticism well. I left for other pastures but a friend stayed for longer, then left too. But we still watch the show unfold and here we thought finnaly, real talk and somethign will be done. Until everyone slept and felt guilty making admins feel bad and now they are apologising instead enabling this game to keep wilting from its problems tha people cant bring up because the admins will blow up if they do! THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS FIXED.

Critical feedback is not mean and toxic. Its not something to apologise for if given constructably and respectfully, and it was. But admins said it was annoying and frustrating and hurt there feelings and players are now apologising for giving their critical feedback. What???? Im disappointed because i had hope that this game would finnaly get better and i could log in and play again someday. Please. Stand by your opinions on the game. Dont apologise for it when admin says they dont like it. Or its just be another revolution in the cycle and nothing changes. You apologise and admins think ha, see i was right, they admint they were being toxic and selfish and now their feedback is no longer valid.

JIRATO: nobody wants you to feel bad or have anxiety. This is not about you. Its about the game people love and want better. They want YOU the admin to know their feelings on the game and ask you what might be done about it? Do not act as they are your enemies just because theyre unhappy with some things. Listen to your players. Stop making it personal about you.

Let me just be specific, too: I'm not apologizing for my feedback. I stand by my feedback/criticisms. I'm apologizing and feeling bad for making someone feel like crap, which I'm not a fan of doing under any circumstance.

Thats a good clarification, thank you for giving it. Im sorry I misunderstood.

sedrik wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:21 am I thought yall were finnaly going to break the cycle thats been on forever in this game, but then.. here you all are saying sorry and i apologise. Back to the starting line. Elizas post was not toxic or mean or immature. it was real. Same for many of yours. I am similar player who didnt last long, i saw red flags and others were pointed out to me. Like this admins cant handle criticism well. I left for other pastures but a friend stayed for longer, then left too. But we still watch the show unfold and here we thought finnaly, real talk and somethign will be done. Until everyone slept and felt guilty making admins feel bad and now they are apologising instead enabling this game to keep wilting from its problems tha people cant bring up because the admins will blow up if they do! THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS FIXED.

Critical feedback is not mean and toxic. Its not something to apologise for if given constructably and respectfully, and it was. But admins said it was annoying and frustrating and hurt there feelings and players are now apologising for giving their critical feedback. What???? Im disappointed because i had hope that this game would finnaly get better and i could log in and play again someday. Please. Stand by your opinions on the game. Dont apologise for it when admin says they dont like it. Or its just be another revolution in the cycle and nothing changes. You apologise and admins think ha, see i was right, they admint they were being toxic and selfish and now their feedback is no longer valid.

JIRATO: nobody wants you to feel bad or have anxiety. This is not about you. Its about the game people love and want better. They want YOU the admin to know their feelings on the game and ask you what might be done about it? Do not act as they are your enemies just because theyre unhappy with some things. Listen to your players. Stop making it personal about you.

Aren't you being a bit harsh on the guy? We all have lives outside the game. Don't you think you could have approached this in a different way that's more kinder.

Addressed equally to everyone:

The last thing I want is to make it feel as if there is some bar to entry to writing or sharing here, strictly defined or self-imposed. Please do not feel this way--the most I ask is to try and be polite in posting. As previously stated I do not want to have any kind of explicit guidelines for what and what not to do, but it can help to read a post over once or twice, maybe elaborate or be open to elaborating? What are your experiences personally? Your red flags? What can we realistically do to fix them? Maybe a useful measuring stick is to read over your post and gauge whether it is encouraging as many questions as it answers. It may even help to spell out the questions directly, so others have writing hooks to continue this discussion. If you feel someone is being impolite, it seems as if the most deescalating response is to reply to them in a way which encourages them to continue engaging here. If there were no valid reasons to be angry or sad or anything in between this thread would not be here, but there can hopefully be a clarity or calm to being asked to explain your feelings on something, and for those around you to demonstrate they are important.

If you are uninterested in sharing at this time it is entirely reasonable and understandable, but please understand every impression helps and we will be as sad to lose a player as you must be in not having fun. What pushes you away from or draws you into this community? What makes you want to contribute here? What is your hope or intent in reaching toward the submit button for a reply?

-Alila

I was trying be less harsh on him. Saying its not an attack on you, its players wanting to be heard about their opinions on the game to make it better and they just want your help.

If I was trying to be strong with someone its make sure as players we are heard and don't apologise if we arent happy with everything. If there is a problem or unhappiness with the game it needs to be heard or people just leave and nothing gets better. Like Zeldryn sorry I sounded harsh on Jirato when it was not intended but I stand by my points.

The people's eloquence in their responses shames me. Thus, I pondered for how many hours how to phrase mine. Alas, I couldn't, so I'm just going to quote a guy smarter than me.

“Kind words do not cost much. Yet they accomplish much" - Blaise Pascal

This has been the principle I've been trying to live by, especially when I interact online where, let's face it, everyone misinterprets contexts without cues like body language, inflections, etc. So, I thank everyone for trying to do this in this thread
Communication, especially good communication is a two-way street. The developers create, enforce, and spearhead the world, and the players try to expand with what we're given. As an expanding world, changes will inevitably happen. There will be consequences, people will like or dislike it. Usually, I try to give it a few days before voicing my concerns, maybe the devs will realize that they need to adjust in the interim. Whatever the case, I will try to keep a cool head about it.

One thing I noticed from the response is the repetition that as players, we don't know the dev's priority list, maybe to keep it as a surprise, or for squashing possible exploits, etc. Which means, what we players think is more important might be different from the gms. Thus, I might have an idea on how to at least help with this, if there was no thread made for it. My idea is, to make a thread where we might post things we think might need a closer look in, while we request gms at least reveal what they are willing to share that are in their priorities. In this way, we might have an idea where to focus.

I guess that's it. I am happy with how this thread panned out. Thank you all for your thoughtful responses and Alila for creating this topic.