CLOK BBS

This is mostly a question for the GMs, as I'm not sure if there's an official stance on this.

Each major town, or at least Mistral and Shadgard, have wanted posters. When you look at them it's just a list of names, but the description, to me, makes it sound as if there's a separate poster for each wanted criminal. With this in mind, is it fair to also assume that there are also sketches or descriptions of what the criminal looks like on each poster, so that if one were to get a good look at a criminal they could potentially recognize them from previous views of those posters? This is how I, and others, have roleplayed it, but the validity of such an assumption has been called into question a couple of times so I figured I'd post it here.

Yep, the posters include a sketch or other likeness of the wanted criminal, with a name and list of crimes below it.

To be fair, I wouldn't be able to recognize someone I saw a sketch of on a wanted poster, nor would the artist be able to reproduce the person's face that well without ever seeing them (to the point that someone who looks at you would know, without a doubt that it's you). This might give people suspicion but I don't think it's reasonable to roleplay that you know who someone is if you've never met or seen them (based only on the logic that you saw them on a wanted poster).

As an aside, it has always been odd to me that no matter where I go, everyone in a given faction knows me and either attacks me or is neutral towards me when I may never have met them before. I understand it from a mechanical perspective, but it is still odd to me. Do all factions distribute wanted pamphlets every minute to all their members?

What I don't understand is why you would want to give players an instant accuse to avoid the rp interaction that comes with learning about another PC and their identity. This gives anyone free reign to use the excuse "I saw you on a wanted poster. I know everything about you..." I think this is a serious detriment to rp and the game.

People can rp however they want but... from my perspective, if someone I've never met is hostile towards me and tells me they saw me on a wanted poster and knows who I am (rumors and wanted poster taken together, even), then this is very likely to erupt into instant CvC (In interactions with me, probably started on my end). Would you agree, Rias, that such interactions would be justified? It's important for fugitives to attempt to conceal their whereabouts and we can't have people shouting our location to guards. Additionally, calling someone out like that seems to be a bit of an insult and particularly unstable or notoriously cruel fugitives might not appreciate such things.

Just to be more clear, does this mean that I can kill anyone on sight whose name appears on a wanted poster/kill order in the outpost (and possibly mistral) without confirming their identity through further rp? If so, I'm going to start dishing out justice.

Kill freely though remember, wanted posters is less about killing for the sake of killing but bringing in for a reward. If you kill for a wanted poster just because they are wanted and not try to collect the reward, that should be seen as little more than griefing and not bounty hunting. Kill orders are kill orders, in the Outpost it is between you, Lythwer and the person targeted. Just remember, just because you are doing what another says it will not make your actions guiltless and others may be willing and go out of their way to return the treatment for the idea of what you may or may not do to any of their allies, all while being proper with RP. The GMs always have the say where the line is drawn, rarely if that line ever clear cut, though crossing the line will result in punishment none the less.

I'm aware that IC actions have consequences Nootau, but a kill order with a sketch seems to me to be IC license to kill any name on the list without any additional RP justification. If I am mistaken about this, I expect one of the GMs will let me know soon. The outpost has a KILL LIST. Again, it's a list of people to be killed for transgressions against the outpost, not a list of people to be thrown in a cell. I rather like this since the outpost has always had it's unique type of justice.

I could really care less about being guiltless in other PC's eyes and others already do go out of their way to return treatment, so I'm quite used to that. They're sometimes successful and sometimes not, but I'm prepared for such attempts.

What I am actually concerned about is staying within game policy, and not necessarily being liked IC (I think I'm well beyond that). My point is that if wanted posters are an excuse to be able to instantly identify people, this can justify a lot of behavior that I don't think should be warranted. Even so, if this is the convention the GMs have decided to take, I'm certainly going to go along with it and I hope others will as well.

I'd love for some PC bounty hunters I have never seen to come after me and by the same token, I'll be hunting down enemies of the outpost and possibly mistral from time to time. Now if only people would still drop ears...

I also plan to mercilessly slaughter anyone who identifies me from a wanted poster (assuming I'm talented enough to take them down) if they use that as their justification for knowing my name/identity or refer to me as a criminal (indirectly referring to the wanted poster).

If any GMs have a strong objection to this, please let me know so that we can discuss. I think it would be quite unfair if this was entirely one sided (i.e. if it was an rp justification for people to be hostile to a criminal they have never met, but not a justification for criminals to be hostile back). I thought I would throw this out there before certain people complain when it happens, so that there's fair OOC warning, although it saddens me that it's come to me having to issue such statements to avoid being stuck in GM voids for actions which I believe are rp-justified. I would rather not state my IC intentions this clearly, but I hope it will avoid problems down the line.

Honestly, from what I've seen of the Acarin character, it doesn't take much for him to assume justification to threaten and even kill people, so I already expect that. I have thoughts on all that but this isn't the place for it.

Back to the wanted posters, certainly I wouldn't expect that someone would just automatically know anyone on any wanted poster. However, for very infamous characters like Acarin, why wouldn't someone make a point to know what he looks like especially if through other IC means they suspect they may have encountered him previously? Or as another example, you're in Mistral, you catch someone trying to steal from you and you get a good look at them, then you go to the posters to see if the person you saw is a wanted criminal in Mistral or not. If they are, then you now have a name to go with the face.

In my mind, and this is why I asked the question about whether sketches would be there or not, if you go out of your way to be known as a bully, thief, jerk or whatever the case may be, you can't exactly expect to hide behind anonymity forever because people are going to make a point to know when they're dealing with someone like that. It's not just the posters either, there are ways of speaking and things that are consistent that people can pick up on, but the posters can help match the person with a name when there is a reason to do so.

Your thoughts on my character are not needed, Faylen, just as I have not stated my thoughts regarding yours. I already restrain Acarin considerably for the character I want him to be in order to comply in entirety with the continually more strict CvC policies. I would recommend running instead of rolling your eyes, making assumptions, and standing up to me under the assumption that I won't attack you, because as you have learned, I will. I was justified in my actions despite your complaints and personal attacks. Your character should learn from this or it will most likely happen again.

My comment is not in regards to how I play Acarin, but in regards to official policy about CvC on wanted posters alone. Again, my point is that if these are IC justification for knowing and identifying another character you have never met, I assume they would be sufficient IC justification to identify a target for a kill. Sometimes people refuse to identify themselves and others (including myself) enjoy bringing people to justice for either the good of their town or for personal gain/rp reasons.

Again, if you identify a criminal this way, they probably understand how you identified them. In my mind, this would put you at risk of attack as well, especially if that character is high profile. People don't like strangers going to the authorities about them, attempting to haul them in/attacking, or shouting for guards on esp. A character you don't know identifying you and potentially reporting your whereabouts would seem like a great reason for hostilities. Rats are usually taken down fairly quickly once their cover is blown.

If identifying from wanted posters becomes an accepted convention, then my point is that criminals can be put at higher risk and also become far more dangerous. I'm alright with this. I think it will be fun this way. I just want to make sure that the GMs agree with my interpretation and understand how making this a convention could potentially impact CvC before I start playing this way.

"I'm aware that IC actions have consequences Nootau, but a kill order with a sketch seems to me to be IC license to kill any name on the list without any additional RP justification." Lets see.. Kill orders are IC actions done by A GM controlled entity. What is honestly confusing here? Faylen is not on the list of those kill orders within the Outpost so trying to use the Kill Orders as justification for such is null. Being informed you have a wanted poster is also not justification in and of itself, if they start yelling for others of your location then that will likely be justification. There are currently only four people on the Kill Orders list, if a GM permits I will also list them here for the curious.

Those who are wondering who someone is placed on this list, the people who are on this list are all criminals who have transgressed the Outpost personally, such as theft or murder to Outpost citizens. This list does not pay favour to anyone's Guild status, Rooks, Mercenaries or Claw members can all be placed on this list, though such status could be used IC to try and RP with the current Outpost leader why they should be removed.

If I'm in your town and on your town kill list, kill me. If you see me in the wilderness kill me. I don't think your town's kill list is a global KOS list though, especially because there's no way to get off that list since there's no justice system there. You shouldn't be able to kill someone in other towns just because they're on your Corvus list, or not without consequence in that town.

I don't care about being hunted or killed personally. I know a lot of people are going to be after my character, that's how I play him and I expect it. I just don't think it should be open season forever on anyone who's ever done something at some point in their life in Corvus.

Did I ever say I wanted to kill Faylen based on outpost kill orders? I'm well aware who is on the list and there's no need for you to post them for curious onlookers.
To address your other comment, I kill Faylen because she identified me by name and screamed for guards for help over esp, just as you have stated. I was well justified in doing so. I'm still well justified in attacking her on sight and don't need further reason (and am not looking for one here).

Whether kill orders were made for NPCs, allegiance-wise my character is quite bound to the outpost just as others are to Shadgard. I have eliminated quite a few people who have breached or attempted to breach the outpost. I don't know why the kill orders would not apply to outpost citizens as well as NPCs. I imagine the outpost would appreciate its citizens assisting in bringing criminals to justice, since they're already marked for death. If wanted posters are a tool that can be used by PCs for knowing things they should not, then they can and certainly should be used as a justification for an attack if appropriate to your character.

Just for your own reference Nootau, I have been on the outpost kill list (on a bug around the time my guild was created) and it took some considerable effort and spending to have my name removed. You're very correct that the justice system does not play favorites. I don't really understand the point you are trying to make with this.

Lufin wrote:If I'm in your town and on your town kill list, kill me. If you see me in the wilderness kill me. I don't think your town's kill list is a global KOS list though, especially because there's no way to get off that list since there's no justice system there. You shouldn't be able to kill someone in other towns just because they're on your Corvus list, or not without consequence in that town.

I don't care about being hunted or killed personally. I know a lot of people are going to be after my character, that's how I play him and I expect it. I just don't think it should be open season forever on anyone who's ever done something at some point in their life in Corvus.

There are consequences to killing people in other towns if this is discovered. One should expect significant rep drops if they do so. I would kill them in my town if caught, or in the wilderness if I see them.

I'm glad you're ok with that.

I have had a poster up in Shadgard for at least 2 years and have no way of having it taken down. I'm sure they'd keep the poster up even if I was caught there... if I ever even managed to escape.

Unfortunately or fortunately, consequences in CLOK seem to be fairly permanent. I wouldn't mind a limit on the time one's name is kept on the wanted posters (i.e. the town eventually gives up hunting you actively) to prevent such things. I actually think it would be a good idea.

People shouldn't be killing you 5 times in a day as that would be a violation of policy (or actively hunting you daily). I don't see why relatively infrequent kills over a long period (i.e. forever) would be a problem, though. That's your IC relationship with your attacker. I've had many frequent victims strike deals with me to avoid such ambushes and you should attempt to resolve things like this in an IC manner if it occurs and you expect it to stop (Barring some GM decision to remove posters, etc).

You know who isn't on a wanted poster? This guy ^.^

That's all really - nothing to contribute here.

Kiyaani wrote:You know who isn't on a wanted poster? This guy ^.^

That's all really - nothing to contribute here.

You're my hero, kiki.

Someone being on the Corvus kill board at some point in their life is not a lifelong green light for any Corvite to kill them with no other interaction and with no other reason than "you were on the kill board that one time". If that's the kind of behavior the "kill orders" phrasing is going to engender then I will, with sadness, water them down to run-of-the-mill wanted posters, or heck, just remove them completely, since there's no justice system in place anyway and that causes a problem with the list never depopulating when people have been brought to "justice".

I can already see it:

"What the heck, why did you just randomly gank me?"

"I thought I saw your name on the kill board once."

The killboards might of been edited from when you first thought them up, they directly say Kill these people on sight.. Nothing about a reward for bringing them in, no reason to interact with them from the stance of going out of one's way to find them other than to murder them. If you would like my thoughts, while wanted posted are good until someone is brought in and served their times, kill order should be limited in time or maybe scripted to only last 3 times of been being killed by the hands of a player, not a NPC?

Yea, as it is that list never changes. If we had a way to turn in a kill that wouldn't be a problem. I usually do the kill order once and leave it at that unless they repeat-offend.

Various posters bearing sketches of wanted individuals have been posted on the back of the town post board. They appear to all be kill-on-sight orders for
local offenders.

The idea behind the kill boards is that if you see that person around town, kill them. Not "go out and hunt them down and kill them until they die from it". If someone has done something to deserve that level of dedication in the effort of digging them an early (even if temporary) grave, you'll hear about it.

It's the Corvus equivalent of other towns' wanted posters. The person's in trouble in that town, but outside that "jurisdiction", don't worry about it if they're wanted for something minor like theft or hooliganism or burglary. If they're wanted for murder or they've done something particularly heinous against Corvus, then like I said - you'll hear about it in ways other than just seeing them on the local troublemaker kill board.

And after thinking about this all, I've removed the kill orders completely until I can come up with a better solution, with some kind of justice system equivalent in place. You can trust that offenders won't last long in Corvus anyway - there are a lot more deadly NPCs wandering around Corvus than other towns.

Rias wrote:And after thinking about this all, I've removed the kill orders completely until I can come up with a better solution, with some kind of justice system equivalent in place. You can trust that offenders won't last long in Corvus anyway - there are a lot more deadly NPCs wandering around Corvus than other towns.

The problem is not with the kill orders specifically. It's with the concept of wanted posters in general and the rp problems they can cause (an excuse for lazy rp). They need to be limited in lifespan or not be an excuse to know another character without additional rp.

Kill orders make sense for the Outpost, and have never been abused as far as I know. I could just as easily justify killing someone I see on a wanted poster... why not remove them from every town?

The problem is that people are going to get mixed messages from the "kill order" ("I can just kill this person whenever for no reason other than they're on this board? SWEET!") and that there's no way for people to get removed from them.

Acarin wrote:I could just as easily justify killing someone I see on a wanted poster... why not remove them from every town?

As has been mentioned, Acarin doesn't need much in the way of justification (in his mind) for killing people. I've never heard of anyone else in CLOK killing someone just because they were on a wanted poster somewhere.

Rias wrote:The problem is that people are going to get mixed messages from the "kill order" ("I can just kill this person whenever for no reason other than they're on this board? SWEET!") and that there's no way for people to get removed from them.

Acarin wrote:I could just as easily justify killing someone I see on a wanted poster... why not remove them from every town?

As has been mentioned, Acarin doesn't need much in the way of justification (in his mind) for killing people. I've never heard of anyone else in CLOK killing someone just because they were on a wanted poster somewhere.

Rias, I've never killed someone merely because they were on a wanted poster. I've never killed someone merely because their name appeared on a kill order. I certainly planned to do so considering your recent input as to wanted posters, however, if this is not the way they are intended then I think it would be sufficient to merely state that.

If you feel I need more justification on any recent kills, please let me know. I would be happy to hear your input,as always, if you feel recent kills have not been within policy or are pushing the border.

How about you place an ooc note on the kill orders when people look at it to clarify that these are not an excuse to hunt someone down if you feel they are problematic, instead of removing it outright. Again, I don't know a single incident of this happening and the kill orders were a nice addition to a town that has been becoming progressively more flowery since changing hands...

I have a feeling the policy might be updated soon, just saying.

I could be wrong, but it seems like things have been twisted just a bit as this thread has continued.

The original question was simply, are there sketches on the posters to go with the names, to which Rias answered yes. This is what I've always assumed, but I wanted to make sure.

No where did anyone say that it should be justifiable for anyone to kill someone just because they're on a Mistral or Shadgard poster. That seems like a pretty lame pk reason to me no matter who the killer is. I can't really speak for Corvis of course.

As for recognition, it's always a slippery thing. I'll address you, Acarin, since you're the main one that responded to this and since you were the first to question my using the posters for rp, but it's also been brought up elsewhere. Faylen actually had three IC reasons to know who Acarin was during their original direct conflict. Taken separately, none of those three would likely be absolute, no doubt reasoning to recognize him, but put together it would make sense for her to know. When the question of how she knew his name was brought up on chat, I answered the posters because it was the simplest of the three, and the only one I was comfortable sharing oocly to anyone outside of admin. I say all this to demonstrate that, in my personal opinion, care should be taken about how and when any of us choose to recognize a person enough to match a name to a face. On the other hand, I think it's completely fair that when a person makes themselves known famously or infamously, for good or bad, people would go out of their way to figure out what they look like, if this is possible, whether by using posters, getting descriptions from other pcs, or whatever needs to be done. It's not really realistic to say, I never told you my name, so you can't know it no matter how much IC things have directed you to know it. As another example, would it not be fair for someone to eventually know who River is, if they see her around with her werewolf and someone else says oh yeah, that really strong woman with the werewolf companion that uses Nether and looks like such and such is River? This is just my opinion however, and I trust that if it is beyond the way the gms would like to see it done they'll say as much and that's fine.

I just want to add that it's a fairly reasonable thing to be able to at least get a bit suspicious of a person who resembles someone on a wanted poster. To expect complete anonymity despite having a sketch of your face in the middle of a town commons is a stretch. To expect people to not recognize you at all if they haven't introduced themselves to you personally is a stretch if they've learned about you ICLY through other means.

I've played games where there's strict intro rules and the only way to truly recognize a character is if they have literally used a command to mechanically introduce themselves to you, and so many people hide anonymously behind it while they do ridiculous things and get away with it.

Conversely, there are things I wish CLOK had that it probably never will, regarding introductions and related things. But this isn't the place for that, if there even was one.