Do Jirato or other admins have thoughts on concerns brought to light here or? Many things have been voiced but so far we have heard that voicing concerns it bothered them but not any word of the concerns themselves.
Importance of good communication requires two sides and traffic traveling in both ways. Even if someone thought I was harsh, I was not the only post. Are admins preparing to respond to the voices of the player, or is this just the pbase venting to each other here?
The Importance of Good Communication
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Hello,
I’m going to try to summarize and respond to what I’ve read and reread here. Hopefully every concern is reflected in this post, but if I leave something out, don’t hesitate to correct me.
In a few of these posts, concerns with the church guilds has been expressed. Particularly in regards to the other side doing something because they know the new templars can’t do anything to stop them with the sentiment that bad guys do bad things, and that’s just how it goes.
I understand what being confronted with a situation you know you cannot win is like. It’s made all the worse when you know if you were even a little more capable, then the other side might not even attempt it. I personally have not observed these attacks in character or conversations on the chat channel, but my schedule is a bit different than most who play and GM.
Policy 2.
“It is not acceptable to grief or disrupt another player's game continually, to the point that they are not able to enjoy playing CLOK. It is important to recognize that this line may be different for each player. Roleplay should be considered a mutual enjoyment. If it is the attacker's intent to prey upon the weaker character for the singular enjoyment of the attacker, this is a problem.”
If a town is being guarded by “good guys” who are trying to defend it from “bad guys”, then at some point one might expect the bad guys to attack. I don’t think this behavior falls in this policy personally. However, if a character is attacking a town repeatedly for the express purpose to cause other characters to react in a way that prevents them from progressing to a point where they would be a challenge, then I would see a problem with that. In the past two weeks I haven’t seen this behavior while I’ve been online, so I am relieved personally. There could still be some other behavior that we haven’t seen, so if there’s ever a concern that another player might be violating a policy, submit a support email explaining as clearly as you can what policy and how they violated. We do ask that players be respectful to one another regardless if they are violating a policy or not.
We also expect IC interactions to be properly roleplayed out. We cringe whenever we see characters having tea-parties with the villains that just attacked their town, but we also don’t like to see IC interactions that can cause OOC emotions to bleed over. So please, keep things civil. If you’re a bad guy and you’re going to attack player characters who are guarding a town, and you know you’re going to bulldoze through them, make it fun for them. If you’re not sure how, then perhaps reconsider the attack until you have an idea. In general, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. Likewise, just because you should, doesn’t mean you can. If you’re a templar, especially a new templar, you shouldn’t expect to be able to put a wrench in the big bad wolf’s plans from the start. Just do your best, and it’ll be noticed.
One more thing I’d like to talk about in regards to the church guilds. A mention of an NPC protector came up. While I know the joy of having some GM power backing you up in confrontations, the NPCs we make can’t always be around to respond for obvious reasons. Either we’re working on other things in and out of game, or we might feel that a situation can best be handled by players. It’d be real nice to just solve everything with NPCs, but I think that really detracts from the whole idea of the lost lands. The undying are and can become very powerful. What might cost an undying character a couple weeks and a couple deaths, would cost someone who isn’t undying their whole life and an equal amount of time of cautious training. From an OOC standpoint, our NPCs don’t always come back. Sometimes they do, but by in large they are one death characters. If we created this super powerful NPC templar to stand guard that wasn’t possessed by a GM, most decently skilled and intelligent players could rip them apart in seconds, but that’s not fun for us, it’s not fun for the player characters that guard is supposedly protecting, and it would leave the players in the same situation they were in before. We could keep remaking the NPC, sure, even give it a different description and name each time, but then that just detracts from the whole idea that a GM is taking part in assisting.
That isn’t to say that NPCs won’t ever do things behind the scenes, or even directly in front of the audience. It’s just that we want the players to feel involved. We’re also not perfect, despite what some might think. We might not always make the right calls. Sometimes we underestimate a player’s capabilities, sometimes we copy and paste a summon command four times too many. Cough cough, I am really sorry about that by the way. We want you, the players, to stick around and be the star characters in the stories we plan and roll out.
The next area that I read about that came up a couple times was in regards to how we, the Game Masters, view you, the players. To put it simply, we wouldn’t be Game Masters for players we didn’t like. We wouldn’t care so much about how our players get along if the players weren’t people we cared about. That being said, again, we’re human. Sometimes things characters do or what players might say can cause us to get upset on a personal level, but the idea that 24 hours a day 7 days a week we’re insulting you is something you don’t have to worry about. Sometimes we do have to vent to one another. However, every single time I’ve seen another GM get upset, they just take a step back, tend to something else, and when they return they’re more receptive and understanding. Most of the time we’re communicating when we’re available to do something, talking about particularly bugalicious bugs, asking how to do something, or talking about food. Conversations about players rarely crops up, and if it does it’s usually regarding how to react to something they did in character, or just making other GMs aware of their actions.
The last area I wanted to talk about was the feeling that this is our game, take it or leave it. This is a very uncomfortable area to talk about because there’s no easy way to address it. Yes, this is Jirato’s game, he makes the changes, directs the other GMs, okays independent plots for GMs to run, alters guilds, handles technical support emails, investigate and fixes bugs, investigates possible policy violations, runs events, teaches other GMs how to do different things, the list goes on and on. That being said, nothing is set in stone. When Jirato said something like I’m just going to listen, but it’s not going to change the other day in regards to the ESP pendant change, that was an outburst he made after 45 or so minutes of continuous chats about how bad the change was, even though it had only been in affect for less than 8 hours. I believe at the most, two or three people had gone through the experience at that point.
I’m not trying to defend his words, he can do that himself. I just want everybody to understand the circumstances that surround these events. It’s not like one person says they hate a change and it’s immediately followed by Jirato screaming at them. Often times it’s after something like this where the constant negative comments bring him to a boiling point, or after several emails have been exchanged between insistent players with a history of entitlement. Even so, he’s not stubborn enough to ignore obvious adjustments. For example the time duration on the pendants was adjusted after looking at how long and often players are logged in. While Jirato said he was unwilling to dedicate more time into replacing the crystals from pendant to pendant, another GM saw the need and with Jirato’s permission, created the code that allows for this to be possible with a server side command. You are heard, even when you don’t think you are. I personally read every post on this BBS, and while I don’t respond to every one, I still appreciate the time and effort put into them even if I don’t agree with the contents.
Someone had asked how to best bring concerns or changes they’d like to see addressed to our or Jirato’s attention. The simple answer is to write a post with constructive feedback. If you don’t like a change, explain why it is you don’t like it. Explain what about the change you’d like to see adjusted, but please do not write a post asking for a change to be revoked completely. The likelihood of a change being reversed is extremely low.
I hope this lengthy post helps communicate how we’re feeling about the concerns brought up over the course of this thread. If you’ve made it this far, poke me in game. Thank you for reading.
I’m going to try to summarize and respond to what I’ve read and reread here. Hopefully every concern is reflected in this post, but if I leave something out, don’t hesitate to correct me.
In a few of these posts, concerns with the church guilds has been expressed. Particularly in regards to the other side doing something because they know the new templars can’t do anything to stop them with the sentiment that bad guys do bad things, and that’s just how it goes.
I understand what being confronted with a situation you know you cannot win is like. It’s made all the worse when you know if you were even a little more capable, then the other side might not even attempt it. I personally have not observed these attacks in character or conversations on the chat channel, but my schedule is a bit different than most who play and GM.
Policy 2.
“It is not acceptable to grief or disrupt another player's game continually, to the point that they are not able to enjoy playing CLOK. It is important to recognize that this line may be different for each player. Roleplay should be considered a mutual enjoyment. If it is the attacker's intent to prey upon the weaker character for the singular enjoyment of the attacker, this is a problem.”
If a town is being guarded by “good guys” who are trying to defend it from “bad guys”, then at some point one might expect the bad guys to attack. I don’t think this behavior falls in this policy personally. However, if a character is attacking a town repeatedly for the express purpose to cause other characters to react in a way that prevents them from progressing to a point where they would be a challenge, then I would see a problem with that. In the past two weeks I haven’t seen this behavior while I’ve been online, so I am relieved personally. There could still be some other behavior that we haven’t seen, so if there’s ever a concern that another player might be violating a policy, submit a support email explaining as clearly as you can what policy and how they violated. We do ask that players be respectful to one another regardless if they are violating a policy or not.
We also expect IC interactions to be properly roleplayed out. We cringe whenever we see characters having tea-parties with the villains that just attacked their town, but we also don’t like to see IC interactions that can cause OOC emotions to bleed over. So please, keep things civil. If you’re a bad guy and you’re going to attack player characters who are guarding a town, and you know you’re going to bulldoze through them, make it fun for them. If you’re not sure how, then perhaps reconsider the attack until you have an idea. In general, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. Likewise, just because you should, doesn’t mean you can. If you’re a templar, especially a new templar, you shouldn’t expect to be able to put a wrench in the big bad wolf’s plans from the start. Just do your best, and it’ll be noticed.
One more thing I’d like to talk about in regards to the church guilds. A mention of an NPC protector came up. While I know the joy of having some GM power backing you up in confrontations, the NPCs we make can’t always be around to respond for obvious reasons. Either we’re working on other things in and out of game, or we might feel that a situation can best be handled by players. It’d be real nice to just solve everything with NPCs, but I think that really detracts from the whole idea of the lost lands. The undying are and can become very powerful. What might cost an undying character a couple weeks and a couple deaths, would cost someone who isn’t undying their whole life and an equal amount of time of cautious training. From an OOC standpoint, our NPCs don’t always come back. Sometimes they do, but by in large they are one death characters. If we created this super powerful NPC templar to stand guard that wasn’t possessed by a GM, most decently skilled and intelligent players could rip them apart in seconds, but that’s not fun for us, it’s not fun for the player characters that guard is supposedly protecting, and it would leave the players in the same situation they were in before. We could keep remaking the NPC, sure, even give it a different description and name each time, but then that just detracts from the whole idea that a GM is taking part in assisting.
That isn’t to say that NPCs won’t ever do things behind the scenes, or even directly in front of the audience. It’s just that we want the players to feel involved. We’re also not perfect, despite what some might think. We might not always make the right calls. Sometimes we underestimate a player’s capabilities, sometimes we copy and paste a summon command four times too many. Cough cough, I am really sorry about that by the way. We want you, the players, to stick around and be the star characters in the stories we plan and roll out.
The next area that I read about that came up a couple times was in regards to how we, the Game Masters, view you, the players. To put it simply, we wouldn’t be Game Masters for players we didn’t like. We wouldn’t care so much about how our players get along if the players weren’t people we cared about. That being said, again, we’re human. Sometimes things characters do or what players might say can cause us to get upset on a personal level, but the idea that 24 hours a day 7 days a week we’re insulting you is something you don’t have to worry about. Sometimes we do have to vent to one another. However, every single time I’ve seen another GM get upset, they just take a step back, tend to something else, and when they return they’re more receptive and understanding. Most of the time we’re communicating when we’re available to do something, talking about particularly bugalicious bugs, asking how to do something, or talking about food. Conversations about players rarely crops up, and if it does it’s usually regarding how to react to something they did in character, or just making other GMs aware of their actions.
The last area I wanted to talk about was the feeling that this is our game, take it or leave it. This is a very uncomfortable area to talk about because there’s no easy way to address it. Yes, this is Jirato’s game, he makes the changes, directs the other GMs, okays independent plots for GMs to run, alters guilds, handles technical support emails, investigate and fixes bugs, investigates possible policy violations, runs events, teaches other GMs how to do different things, the list goes on and on. That being said, nothing is set in stone. When Jirato said something like I’m just going to listen, but it’s not going to change the other day in regards to the ESP pendant change, that was an outburst he made after 45 or so minutes of continuous chats about how bad the change was, even though it had only been in affect for less than 8 hours. I believe at the most, two or three people had gone through the experience at that point.
I’m not trying to defend his words, he can do that himself. I just want everybody to understand the circumstances that surround these events. It’s not like one person says they hate a change and it’s immediately followed by Jirato screaming at them. Often times it’s after something like this where the constant negative comments bring him to a boiling point, or after several emails have been exchanged between insistent players with a history of entitlement. Even so, he’s not stubborn enough to ignore obvious adjustments. For example the time duration on the pendants was adjusted after looking at how long and often players are logged in. While Jirato said he was unwilling to dedicate more time into replacing the crystals from pendant to pendant, another GM saw the need and with Jirato’s permission, created the code that allows for this to be possible with a server side command. You are heard, even when you don’t think you are. I personally read every post on this BBS, and while I don’t respond to every one, I still appreciate the time and effort put into them even if I don’t agree with the contents.
Someone had asked how to best bring concerns or changes they’d like to see addressed to our or Jirato’s attention. The simple answer is to write a post with constructive feedback. If you don’t like a change, explain why it is you don’t like it. Explain what about the change you’d like to see adjusted, but please do not write a post asking for a change to be revoked completely. The likelihood of a change being reversed is extremely low.
I hope this lengthy post helps communicate how we’re feeling about the concerns brought up over the course of this thread. If you’ve made it this far, poke me in game. Thank you for reading.
Speaking to Dionisia, Eagalon apologetically says, "I am sorry that you also had to suffer this time too. but i definitely think that some arse hole is targetting me."
Dionisia says, "I could barely see in front of me."
Vlora says, "Is someone just really ripping a good one everywhere they go."
Aelarra quietly says, "Definitely an aeromancer."
[EVENTCHAT Uyoku]: Sorry cat laying in tap, tying hard.
Dionisia says, "I could barely see in front of me."
Vlora says, "Is someone just really ripping a good one everywhere they go."
Aelarra quietly says, "Definitely an aeromancer."
[EVENTCHAT Uyoku]: Sorry cat laying in tap, tying hard.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
I think this is a lot of good information here, and I have a few things I have opinions on, but I also feel that it isn't much going to be useful. but for the sake of transparency, I'd like to post here.
After playing clok on and off for a number of years, I have gone through the rollercoaster of sweeping changes, guilds closing, reopening only to close again, decisions made that at times makes Clok a bear to play if not just downright unpleasant. But I recognize the things that people are saying here on both sides. As a player with experience now building and GMing for a couple different games, it is really frustrating to be accused of not working on behalf of the players, of not doing things for them. that being said, it has in the past seemed like I and others have certainly been told this is just how it is. Either deal with it or leave.
I have left in times prior because of this perception, whether true or false, and have taken breaks from Clok. But I find that there's just a lot of things I'd like to suggest, a lot of things that I've suggested before, abilities to make it easier on monks to rescue others and heal them, that don't require combat, abilities areas that the game could be expanded in such as areas such as herbalism, and other things. But right now, I feel like I am starving for church rp, (since it's the most current example) And I feel like it's a guild that no one wants to touch or really even wants to have. And if the guild were to be closed down as it seemed it originally was going to be, what would replace it to give players who were so happy with that style of play opportunities to engage, is it just do what you can or just stop playing? are other things being brought into the game to replace the decisions made in prior circumstances? I don't want to say these things to be mean, or even to accuse others, I just feel like this character as bland and as unimpactful as he is as simply a healer is supposed to be content with being bland nonimpactful, and that we'll leave it to all the other combat characters. It feels like characters who volunteer to go under the high, pressures of being a monk or templar, are in a way being punished even when they are dedicating themselves to those rp restrictions.
So, I can completely understand the frustrations on the church players' side of certain issues. I also understand that we can't expect that everything is going to go are way, or that we can just believe we're entitled to things, but I think when I'm agreeing to do things that really hampers me in what I can do to fill a role, it'd be nice just not to have the rug yanked too. It's part of the reason why I think the church has had such a revolving door on top of just the bragging rights that some in the past, myself included have probably wanted. I know this is partial venting, but it is also an attempt, though probably poor to point out what I observe from my perspective, and not necessarily a direct critique. If worse came to worse I'd just assume that Clok doesn't seem to be a fit anymore, but I feel that sometimes I don't get a say or any impact on what happens. I should just not complain and have to restrain myself further, to keep my guild in any sort of functioning order.
There is a certain design for the guild, and a certain view of the guild that GM's developers and others have had over the years. But I remember when we were having this conversation about the dunwyr. How it was an rp restrictive game, if you want to get in just do your best, an yet there was no transparency, no sort of major direction. It leaves players feeling that no matter what they do they're going to be told you can't rp good enough, or you just don't understand clok. It in my oopinion, fosters animosity or discontent. I would think for things like this, where there is a lot of difficult standards, that there could at least be a very clear application system, or a karma system, or something that gives people the ability to have an account reviewed, rp reviewed, so on so on. And do it that way over some of the things that have happened in the past.
Anyway, I know This is all over the place I know. But I guess my frustration with things and sadness is also getting put here as well. I do hope some things get better and that we can continue to improve and grow. an be a family of clok loving people. I just feel a lot of fatigue already as well.
Pof Micah
After playing clok on and off for a number of years, I have gone through the rollercoaster of sweeping changes, guilds closing, reopening only to close again, decisions made that at times makes Clok a bear to play if not just downright unpleasant. But I recognize the things that people are saying here on both sides. As a player with experience now building and GMing for a couple different games, it is really frustrating to be accused of not working on behalf of the players, of not doing things for them. that being said, it has in the past seemed like I and others have certainly been told this is just how it is. Either deal with it or leave.
I have left in times prior because of this perception, whether true or false, and have taken breaks from Clok. But I find that there's just a lot of things I'd like to suggest, a lot of things that I've suggested before, abilities to make it easier on monks to rescue others and heal them, that don't require combat, abilities areas that the game could be expanded in such as areas such as herbalism, and other things. But right now, I feel like I am starving for church rp, (since it's the most current example) And I feel like it's a guild that no one wants to touch or really even wants to have. And if the guild were to be closed down as it seemed it originally was going to be, what would replace it to give players who were so happy with that style of play opportunities to engage, is it just do what you can or just stop playing? are other things being brought into the game to replace the decisions made in prior circumstances? I don't want to say these things to be mean, or even to accuse others, I just feel like this character as bland and as unimpactful as he is as simply a healer is supposed to be content with being bland nonimpactful, and that we'll leave it to all the other combat characters. It feels like characters who volunteer to go under the high, pressures of being a monk or templar, are in a way being punished even when they are dedicating themselves to those rp restrictions.
So, I can completely understand the frustrations on the church players' side of certain issues. I also understand that we can't expect that everything is going to go are way, or that we can just believe we're entitled to things, but I think when I'm agreeing to do things that really hampers me in what I can do to fill a role, it'd be nice just not to have the rug yanked too. It's part of the reason why I think the church has had such a revolving door on top of just the bragging rights that some in the past, myself included have probably wanted. I know this is partial venting, but it is also an attempt, though probably poor to point out what I observe from my perspective, and not necessarily a direct critique. If worse came to worse I'd just assume that Clok doesn't seem to be a fit anymore, but I feel that sometimes I don't get a say or any impact on what happens. I should just not complain and have to restrain myself further, to keep my guild in any sort of functioning order.
There is a certain design for the guild, and a certain view of the guild that GM's developers and others have had over the years. But I remember when we were having this conversation about the dunwyr. How it was an rp restrictive game, if you want to get in just do your best, an yet there was no transparency, no sort of major direction. It leaves players feeling that no matter what they do they're going to be told you can't rp good enough, or you just don't understand clok. It in my oopinion, fosters animosity or discontent. I would think for things like this, where there is a lot of difficult standards, that there could at least be a very clear application system, or a karma system, or something that gives people the ability to have an account reviewed, rp reviewed, so on so on. And do it that way over some of the things that have happened in the past.
Anyway, I know This is all over the place I know. But I guess my frustration with things and sadness is also getting put here as well. I do hope some things get better and that we can continue to improve and grow. an be a family of clok loving people. I just feel a lot of fatigue already as well.
Pof Micah
[ESP-GRAY - Shadowy-Gray]: No no (player) , you were right, it's wonderful. I think I'll send in my application today. I can't wait to partake in the parties there. I just have one question, will I need to kidnap my own child, or will there be some there for those who are un able to.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
I don't want to keep dangling the prospect of "You can become a monk or a templar" in front of players, only to have people with 10+ characters roll up an alt, spend half an hour on them, send a request to join, switch back to their other characters and disappear for months, then come back 3 months later and complain that they've been trying to join the church for three months. This happens. A lot.
Then there's also the amount of personal time and effort spent in monitoring a potential Monk or Templar, to finally go, "Okay, this person gets it, lets go ahead and get them in.", they check out the guild, play their character for a week or two, learn a bunch of abilities, be all, "Okay that was fun" and then switch to another character. This happens, a lot.
Then there''s the few people who join just to check out the cool thaumaturgy powers, and instantly try to meta the hell out of it, attempt to min-max every aspect of their character, and become an unstoppable thaumaturgy machine. This happens, not so often, but does happen.
And then in the extreme example of the above, they also do so while completely disregarding the thaumaturgy guidelines, requiring significant time and effort on our part to monitor them and adjust their ability to use thaumaturgy accordingly. This, thankfully, has only happened a small handful of times, though each instance of which is jarring enough to leave a permanent bad taste in my mouth when even considering anything thaumaturgy related.
Overall, I feel the overabundance of thaumaturgy in the lost lands extremely cheapens it. Venting about this with my friends, I've learned that Rias also made the church guilds/thaumaturgy unavailable to players in COGG (I don't actually play COGG so I didn't know until then), and I start to think, you know what, that's actually probably for the better. That's a good idea. This is supposed to be uber rare, and we have all of these issues with the above examples... It'd be better if we just quit letting players think that they can just ask and join the church.
As for plans for the church, they're still there, I'm just stopping this whole "Send us an email and pester us every now and then and eventually you can get your 15th alternate character in the guild."
Then there's also the amount of personal time and effort spent in monitoring a potential Monk or Templar, to finally go, "Okay, this person gets it, lets go ahead and get them in.", they check out the guild, play their character for a week or two, learn a bunch of abilities, be all, "Okay that was fun" and then switch to another character. This happens, a lot.
Then there''s the few people who join just to check out the cool thaumaturgy powers, and instantly try to meta the hell out of it, attempt to min-max every aspect of their character, and become an unstoppable thaumaturgy machine. This happens, not so often, but does happen.
And then in the extreme example of the above, they also do so while completely disregarding the thaumaturgy guidelines, requiring significant time and effort on our part to monitor them and adjust their ability to use thaumaturgy accordingly. This, thankfully, has only happened a small handful of times, though each instance of which is jarring enough to leave a permanent bad taste in my mouth when even considering anything thaumaturgy related.
Overall, I feel the overabundance of thaumaturgy in the lost lands extremely cheapens it. Venting about this with my friends, I've learned that Rias also made the church guilds/thaumaturgy unavailable to players in COGG (I don't actually play COGG so I didn't know until then), and I start to think, you know what, that's actually probably for the better. That's a good idea. This is supposed to be uber rare, and we have all of these issues with the above examples... It'd be better if we just quit letting players think that they can just ask and join the church.
As for plans for the church, they're still there, I'm just stopping this whole "Send us an email and pester us every now and then and eventually you can get your 15th alternate character in the guild."
[GMCHAT Uyoku]: Octum is when the octumbunny comes around and lays pumpkins everywhere right?
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
I don’t have time for a very in-depth response right now, but I wanted to poke my head back in and thank everybody for continuing to offer feedback, and to the staff especially for offering their own perspectives. It’s extremely valuable, very much appreciated.
You declaratively shout, "frack Corvus. Support Shadgardians."
Zeldryn nods simply, that said, folding his arms back beneath a striated fiery-orange wool poncho.
Several townsfolk cheer in response to Zeldryn's shout!
Zeldryn nods simply, that said, folding his arms back beneath a striated fiery-orange wool poncho.
Several townsfolk cheer in response to Zeldryn's shout!
-
Smoothcoffee
- Member
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:40 am
- Location: Los Angeles/Boise
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Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Hi,
I just wanted to say, thank you. Thank you to the GMs for reading this and understanding and giving your perspective. It really, truly helps me understand where we as players and GMs can meet in the middle.
I'm glad there are IC plans for the church, I've expressed my joy at being able to do templary task things so Sofi can improve. I also love the rp it brings with it. (everyone missed pissed off tiny templar yesterday), but my thanks goes to those who struggle to express themselves like I do, and who did it in order to be transparent. I love ya'll, and I'll be frustrated and cry sometimes, but I like knowing that my opinions matter. Keep sharing perspectives and being kind, considerate people, guys.
-Sofi
I just wanted to say, thank you. Thank you to the GMs for reading this and understanding and giving your perspective. It really, truly helps me understand where we as players and GMs can meet in the middle.
I'm glad there are IC plans for the church, I've expressed my joy at being able to do templary task things so Sofi can improve. I also love the rp it brings with it. (everyone missed pissed off tiny templar yesterday), but my thanks goes to those who struggle to express themselves like I do, and who did it in order to be transparent. I love ya'll, and I'll be frustrated and cry sometimes, but I like knowing that my opinions matter. Keep sharing perspectives and being kind, considerate people, guys.
-Sofi
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
*web swings in*
As one of the characters used for a Gm plot, and taking up the torch of one who slaughters a lot, I feel as if I should respond to this topic. Outside of the initial charge back on May 12th that kicked started the event and left a mess of bodies and arachnids around, I decided it was the time to be more of a presence as a harbinger, especially since I now had a fellow guild mate to ride with. The idea I was interpreting after the first charge is that there was going to be more stuff to take part in soon. And it was time to be more antagonistic (got to impress the night boss).
Unfortunately, this was my first time to measure out a long term siege somewhere, and not really knowing how people were going to do things? I wasn't really expecting people to start a guard shift of all things and leaving themselves to protect the city that way. Though, as Loona pointed out, it doesn't violate policy 9 in attacking said guard force. It's implied one is opening themselves to cvc in taking up such a role, along with events Gm's pull out while you all wait. Though, it also didn't help that not only did the attackers tended to outclass the defenders as mentioned before, they also kind of outmatched them with IC contacts to pass along observed guard shift rotations without me needing to observe them. being passed along. Types of defenders, who tended to guard while hiding and when. it basically made it easy to pick times to peer in and charge. or in short, everything really rolled against the defending party in multiple levels through mechanics and IC leverage.
And yeah, I noticed the reactions people had at their new unintended torture. Standing on guard for days and unable to train or do much else. Eventually feeling safe to do so, and then 5 people are dead at the canyon and a lot of npc guards need to be replaced. Even if the people weren't directly put down, they were feeling frustrated on what to do, especially with the Templars who have an IC role as defenders. And ultimately, people were getting frustrated at the lack of their own enjoyment or character progress.
And I really couldn't get a sense of how long to space out stuff. Unfortunately, just the eventuality an attack was coming panicked people into an unfun routine. Right now I'm experimenting if 2 weeks of non-gm prompted action is a decent enough spacing, though most of that might be held further back while the festival is active.
I do want to avoid stomping on people's enjoyment of the game. however, it's hard to be an antagonistic without walking on people's back a few times in whatever self plot or Gm plot is thought up.
*peers around*
Though I do have to comment on one thing that's been muttered before. For people who are thinking all of the support is going to all the evil and dark guilds, that's not quite true. In fact, sentiments of former players mention that not getting as much support was something one had to work around with, and basically create your own fun without gm help as an antagonist. Though, it does flag to players moments where you stride in as a dark lady of spiders that things are about to get interesting. It's just that these events are a lot rarer than players think. The good guilds tend to get the most attention from what has been noted, and us horrid human beings tend to enjoy the small bits of attention we can gather.
*web swings out*
As one of the characters used for a Gm plot, and taking up the torch of one who slaughters a lot, I feel as if I should respond to this topic. Outside of the initial charge back on May 12th that kicked started the event and left a mess of bodies and arachnids around, I decided it was the time to be more of a presence as a harbinger, especially since I now had a fellow guild mate to ride with. The idea I was interpreting after the first charge is that there was going to be more stuff to take part in soon. And it was time to be more antagonistic (got to impress the night boss).
Unfortunately, this was my first time to measure out a long term siege somewhere, and not really knowing how people were going to do things? I wasn't really expecting people to start a guard shift of all things and leaving themselves to protect the city that way. Though, as Loona pointed out, it doesn't violate policy 9 in attacking said guard force. It's implied one is opening themselves to cvc in taking up such a role, along with events Gm's pull out while you all wait. Though, it also didn't help that not only did the attackers tended to outclass the defenders as mentioned before, they also kind of outmatched them with IC contacts to pass along observed guard shift rotations without me needing to observe them. being passed along. Types of defenders, who tended to guard while hiding and when. it basically made it easy to pick times to peer in and charge. or in short, everything really rolled against the defending party in multiple levels through mechanics and IC leverage.
And yeah, I noticed the reactions people had at their new unintended torture. Standing on guard for days and unable to train or do much else. Eventually feeling safe to do so, and then 5 people are dead at the canyon and a lot of npc guards need to be replaced. Even if the people weren't directly put down, they were feeling frustrated on what to do, especially with the Templars who have an IC role as defenders. And ultimately, people were getting frustrated at the lack of their own enjoyment or character progress.
And I really couldn't get a sense of how long to space out stuff. Unfortunately, just the eventuality an attack was coming panicked people into an unfun routine. Right now I'm experimenting if 2 weeks of non-gm prompted action is a decent enough spacing, though most of that might be held further back while the festival is active.
I do want to avoid stomping on people's enjoyment of the game. however, it's hard to be an antagonistic without walking on people's back a few times in whatever self plot or Gm plot is thought up.
*peers around*
Though I do have to comment on one thing that's been muttered before. For people who are thinking all of the support is going to all the evil and dark guilds, that's not quite true. In fact, sentiments of former players mention that not getting as much support was something one had to work around with, and basically create your own fun without gm help as an antagonist. Though, it does flag to players moments where you stride in as a dark lady of spiders that things are about to get interesting. It's just that these events are a lot rarer than players think. The good guilds tend to get the most attention from what has been noted, and us horrid human beings tend to enjoy the small bits of attention we can gather.
*web swings out*
[CHAT - GameMaster Uyoku Had Pizza For Dinner]: Spidercat, spidercat, does whatever a spidercat does. Skittering, up the walls, meowing cute while showing off its claws, it is the creepy spidercat.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
The whole point of that attack, aside of being a conveniently timed reason to have the church NPCs go away, was to bring in a new NPC, have the Shadgard gate repaired, and set the groundwork for a new guild. The intent is for Lyran to recruit some people to help build gate components, giving them custom schematics they can in turn plop in a donation room to earn some kudos and warm fuzzies from Shadgard. Then new gate gets built, and bam, no more evil people sneaking into Shadgard, 1000% increased security.
However, shortly after there were significant issues with Tse Gaiyan and I had to shift my attention elsewhere. I'd still like to get back to that plot eventually, but it was always intended to be over the course of weeks, not days.
However, shortly after there were significant issues with Tse Gaiyan and I had to shift my attention elsewhere. I'd still like to get back to that plot eventually, but it was always intended to be over the course of weeks, not days.
[GMCHAT Uyoku]: Octum is when the octumbunny comes around and lays pumpkins everywhere right?
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
This is not about gms but about players, and I really say this from the perspective of someone who has weight donning on me the most as "someone reliable in the team", position or not. Everyone looks for me, reports to me, speaks with me, all sorts of thing...and that includes pestering me, making stupid stuff for me to solve/mediate, and a long list of others. Guess what? There was one player who managed to make me cry ooc back when I was still at work in my office alone. That person just did...every griefing thing possible ooc and ic. Everyone knows who. Let's leave it at that.
And thing is, Tse Gaiyan is way too easy to join, too easy to screw up, especially when something like Utasa has so much to abuse. You join because you wanna be locksmith and it doesn't take forever to wait, yar, in. You wanna join because evesdropping is cool, yar, in. You wanted to join because of all the cool abilities, yar, in. This doesn't include you wanted to join to abuse the team ic as a whole, but still yar, in.
In the end, who deals with it? The team. Some events, some possibilities of events wasn't even about gms. Gms didn't even have to solve it. But players did and pressured gms to do so. It's not on gms guys, I'm serious. It's on everyone working with you to solve your mess you've caused, and often times, it's severe.
From Udemi part, it's not very, very worth abusing, but Utasas in particular are pretty much...what one player described personally to me as "a bunch of jerks", most of them that is. Right now I and others are trying to nutrify one heavy influence in the branch and it seems to be working. Positions are rescrapped. We're happy. Not much to abuse ic wise, but what happened definitely taught us a lot of lessons. We never wanted to create any mess for you to solve. We didn't want the mess ourselves, but we have people in here doing it.
Please, players, stop abusing Utasa if possible, or at least cool it down. And with the mindset of "I'm going to play however the hell I want. You shut up and play along" which includes making the game less fun for others and dragging them into mental loop with you, no thanks. You can't get out there upsetting over the mess you yourself cause and blame it on gms when they have no part, just saying.
And let me put it here for everyone to see, and some people who hear our network can confirm it. One player, that said player to be exact, logged in several times this past two-three something weeks pressuring for the praetor while sending me ooc tell saying "If I'm punished, I'll quit". Then wrote an ic letter to the praetor, got upset the next day saying he told her when he'd be free. It's not like gms have 24/7 for you, seriously. I kinda lost my tempor on him a little by asking what was wrong with you coming just to ask for that repeatedly when you already know the praetor doesn't have time just for you? Then he sent me another tell saying, "I'm gonna go because of this attitude". What?
This is one behavior from player's side I observed, and specifically from this one guy alone. But this major aspects are broken down into stuff in other situations of different people. While we're on the topic of gms vs players here, I'd like to bring up a point too that player vs player, character vs character and vs player behind character matter. And tbh, certain guilds are more abusable, more abused that others, players or gms.
And thing is, Tse Gaiyan is way too easy to join, too easy to screw up, especially when something like Utasa has so much to abuse. You join because you wanna be locksmith and it doesn't take forever to wait, yar, in. You wanna join because evesdropping is cool, yar, in. You wanted to join because of all the cool abilities, yar, in. This doesn't include you wanted to join to abuse the team ic as a whole, but still yar, in.
In the end, who deals with it? The team. Some events, some possibilities of events wasn't even about gms. Gms didn't even have to solve it. But players did and pressured gms to do so. It's not on gms guys, I'm serious. It's on everyone working with you to solve your mess you've caused, and often times, it's severe.
From Udemi part, it's not very, very worth abusing, but Utasas in particular are pretty much...what one player described personally to me as "a bunch of jerks", most of them that is. Right now I and others are trying to nutrify one heavy influence in the branch and it seems to be working. Positions are rescrapped. We're happy. Not much to abuse ic wise, but what happened definitely taught us a lot of lessons. We never wanted to create any mess for you to solve. We didn't want the mess ourselves, but we have people in here doing it.
Please, players, stop abusing Utasa if possible, or at least cool it down. And with the mindset of "I'm going to play however the hell I want. You shut up and play along" which includes making the game less fun for others and dragging them into mental loop with you, no thanks. You can't get out there upsetting over the mess you yourself cause and blame it on gms when they have no part, just saying.
And let me put it here for everyone to see, and some people who hear our network can confirm it. One player, that said player to be exact, logged in several times this past two-three something weeks pressuring for the praetor while sending me ooc tell saying "If I'm punished, I'll quit". Then wrote an ic letter to the praetor, got upset the next day saying he told her when he'd be free. It's not like gms have 24/7 for you, seriously. I kinda lost my tempor on him a little by asking what was wrong with you coming just to ask for that repeatedly when you already know the praetor doesn't have time just for you? Then he sent me another tell saying, "I'm gonna go because of this attitude". What?
This is one behavior from player's side I observed, and specifically from this one guy alone. But this major aspects are broken down into stuff in other situations of different people. While we're on the topic of gms vs players here, I'd like to bring up a point too that player vs player, character vs character and vs player behind character matter. And tbh, certain guilds are more abusable, more abused that others, players or gms.
[CHAT - Event Staff Uyoku likes NOM NOM NOM food]: You are holding a pepper-grilled Uyoku in your right hand.
This GM has been peppered and grillef over an open flame to a juicy perfection.
This GM has been peppered and grillef over an open flame to a juicy perfection.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Now that I have an extra second to sit down and write actual words, I wanted to say a few more things in response to others.
(Oops, I wrote another novel. Prepare.)
Vazdol: I think it goes without saying that on large, you do a really good job as an antagonistic force, and will likely continue doing a good job as one. Personally, the sort of stuff that you were doing was right up in line with what I've come to expect from antagonist figures here on Clok. It was certainly rapid-- but I think pacing is always a questionable thing when it comes to RPE/RPI mudding. You did/are doing your best, and are obviously making a genuine effort to not step on anyone's toes. Especially with the added friction of current events. Given that, I think the frustration wasn't lying purely with you personally, just a combination of circumstances. But I can't speak for everyone, either. I can only speak for myself, and the limited amount of frustration that I had at the time.
As a sidenote, Given the usual atmosphere of the game, and lacking any distractions like a festival, I, personally, am totally unopposed to players going about antagonistic "plans" as often as once a week or two. That's plenty of time for the opposing side to get their business together, forge a plan, and respond accordingly. Based on my activity (when i don't have other stuff RL going on) I'm cool with it twice a week, even. But that's just me. Scaling, the player-planned event in question, and the amount of people involved complicates that whole decision making process, however. So I think it is a genuinely hard balance to strike. And that's based off my own experiences trying similar antagonisty things in the past. It's why I play that particular character the way that I do.
Jirato: I can't act as though I had any idea as to what any plot-related intentions were, but I can certainly say that it all sounds sensible based on the explanation you offered. From my perspective, based on previous events, I had a feeling that some sort of sweeping change was coming. And, keep in mind-- none of this is meant to be criticism, just my experience-- I never really thought anything would happen in a matter of days. You're one guy, you've got a limited window of availability, and other priorities; weeks, or even longer, as things progressed, isn't at all unexpected. Especially for plots with a lot of intricacy.
I, at least, just sort of shot myself in the foot in terms of the state of things. After a few weeks had gone by, I started to question whether things would actually continue to advance, or come to some sort of a conclusion. What I could've done was reach out and ask about it. But I didn't do that. Instead, I just sort of waited, and stewed, and waited, and stewed, and got too caught up in my own questions as opposed to. Well, asking the questions.
When other staffers departed in previous years, it caused a pretty big plot line I, and others were involved in to get dropped. When staffing got tighter, and we got a notification about events slowing down last year/the year before-- it sucked, to put it simply. The whole of that experience, though it's a completely different one in terms of context, lingered in my mind after it happened. (However fair or unfair that may seem. I know it seems pretty unfair, especially because none of the current staff had anything to do with it and I'm 100% aware of that. At least, I think so.) And that says nothing about poor experiences I've had mudding on other games in past years; but everyone's had those.
The point of that explanation is that I was starting to worry that the current plotlines out in the world in past weeks might've been heading toward the same fate, and I was worried that communication would disappate in a similar fashion. But I didn't speak up about it. And that's my bad, not any of yours. That being said-- the communication and perspective you've offered so far is great, and does a lot to put folks at ease. (At least I'd think so.)
Tl;dr: it's obviously good to hear that my concerns were misguided ones. . However, I think that, in hindsight, if I would've asked in a more clear, patient fashion a lot sooner, or others did the same-- you would've had no problem giving us an update. In the future, I will-- and I think all of us players should be clear about our own communications and concerns as we move forward. I can only hope that the staff, too, continues to be patient and communicative with us, as well. We like seeing you guys on chat and the BBS every now and again, even if you don't have much to say. :) Ya'll created something we all take joy in.
We definitely don't expect you all to hover on the channels or the game or the BBS 24/7-- you have lives. But the way things have been lately (The vast majority of chat, VC on the clok discord, etc.) has been great. Especially without the tension.
Artus: As one of the people who, based on my own experiences, encouraged you to reach out to staff-- I did so thinking that the situation had escalated to a point that it was sort of out of you, or the other members of your respective team's hands to be able to do anything about. I can't say for certain if that was the case, really, or even whether I was right to make that suggestion. That's subjective, and for individuals involved to decide. But I think a lot of what you have to say about the players coming together to solve their problems organically whilst simultaneously trying to avoid asking for GM assistance unless absolutely needed is a good methodology to assert. It's one that I try to follow, personally. I am sorry that feelings and tensions ran so high as to cause you so much discomfort on an OOC level, though. You're great. For what it's worth, My suggestions came out of a genuine place of concern based on the stress you confessed to. But I totally understand how it could've been a lot to handle. I can only hope that some of the other ideas we pinballed back and forth might help with all of that.
And this is just my short answer. I love ya' Artus. I have a lot more to say in that regard, but I can't formulate my thoughts properly right now. Just know that I think you're great. Keep being you.
Everyone else, old or new : Thank you for continuing to offer your own perceptions and feedback, and I urge the conversation to continue. It's productive. It's great. If we're all on the same communicative level about Clok and our thoughts on it, we can forge a stronger community for it. Like Jirato said earlier. I think all of us dream of this game having twice, or even three times it's current active population. If we keep our community strong, I think it's not just realistically feasible, but a genuine possibility as we continue to grow.
Thanks for hearing me out, as usual. I hope none of this is taken in the wrong way!
(Oops, I wrote another novel. Prepare.)
Vazdol: I think it goes without saying that on large, you do a really good job as an antagonistic force, and will likely continue doing a good job as one. Personally, the sort of stuff that you were doing was right up in line with what I've come to expect from antagonist figures here on Clok. It was certainly rapid-- but I think pacing is always a questionable thing when it comes to RPE/RPI mudding. You did/are doing your best, and are obviously making a genuine effort to not step on anyone's toes. Especially with the added friction of current events. Given that, I think the frustration wasn't lying purely with you personally, just a combination of circumstances. But I can't speak for everyone, either. I can only speak for myself, and the limited amount of frustration that I had at the time.
As a sidenote, Given the usual atmosphere of the game, and lacking any distractions like a festival, I, personally, am totally unopposed to players going about antagonistic "plans" as often as once a week or two. That's plenty of time for the opposing side to get their business together, forge a plan, and respond accordingly. Based on my activity (when i don't have other stuff RL going on) I'm cool with it twice a week, even. But that's just me. Scaling, the player-planned event in question, and the amount of people involved complicates that whole decision making process, however. So I think it is a genuinely hard balance to strike. And that's based off my own experiences trying similar antagonisty things in the past. It's why I play that particular character the way that I do.
Jirato: I can't act as though I had any idea as to what any plot-related intentions were, but I can certainly say that it all sounds sensible based on the explanation you offered. From my perspective, based on previous events, I had a feeling that some sort of sweeping change was coming. And, keep in mind-- none of this is meant to be criticism, just my experience-- I never really thought anything would happen in a matter of days. You're one guy, you've got a limited window of availability, and other priorities; weeks, or even longer, as things progressed, isn't at all unexpected. Especially for plots with a lot of intricacy.
I, at least, just sort of shot myself in the foot in terms of the state of things. After a few weeks had gone by, I started to question whether things would actually continue to advance, or come to some sort of a conclusion. What I could've done was reach out and ask about it. But I didn't do that. Instead, I just sort of waited, and stewed, and waited, and stewed, and got too caught up in my own questions as opposed to. Well, asking the questions.
When other staffers departed in previous years, it caused a pretty big plot line I, and others were involved in to get dropped. When staffing got tighter, and we got a notification about events slowing down last year/the year before-- it sucked, to put it simply. The whole of that experience, though it's a completely different one in terms of context, lingered in my mind after it happened. (However fair or unfair that may seem. I know it seems pretty unfair, especially because none of the current staff had anything to do with it and I'm 100% aware of that. At least, I think so.) And that says nothing about poor experiences I've had mudding on other games in past years; but everyone's had those.
The point of that explanation is that I was starting to worry that the current plotlines out in the world in past weeks might've been heading toward the same fate, and I was worried that communication would disappate in a similar fashion. But I didn't speak up about it. And that's my bad, not any of yours. That being said-- the communication and perspective you've offered so far is great, and does a lot to put folks at ease. (At least I'd think so.)
Tl;dr: it's obviously good to hear that my concerns were misguided ones. . However, I think that, in hindsight, if I would've asked in a more clear, patient fashion a lot sooner, or others did the same-- you would've had no problem giving us an update. In the future, I will-- and I think all of us players should be clear about our own communications and concerns as we move forward. I can only hope that the staff, too, continues to be patient and communicative with us, as well. We like seeing you guys on chat and the BBS every now and again, even if you don't have much to say. :) Ya'll created something we all take joy in.
We definitely don't expect you all to hover on the channels or the game or the BBS 24/7-- you have lives. But the way things have been lately (The vast majority of chat, VC on the clok discord, etc.) has been great. Especially without the tension.
Artus: As one of the people who, based on my own experiences, encouraged you to reach out to staff-- I did so thinking that the situation had escalated to a point that it was sort of out of you, or the other members of your respective team's hands to be able to do anything about. I can't say for certain if that was the case, really, or even whether I was right to make that suggestion. That's subjective, and for individuals involved to decide. But I think a lot of what you have to say about the players coming together to solve their problems organically whilst simultaneously trying to avoid asking for GM assistance unless absolutely needed is a good methodology to assert. It's one that I try to follow, personally. I am sorry that feelings and tensions ran so high as to cause you so much discomfort on an OOC level, though. You're great. For what it's worth, My suggestions came out of a genuine place of concern based on the stress you confessed to. But I totally understand how it could've been a lot to handle. I can only hope that some of the other ideas we pinballed back and forth might help with all of that.
And this is just my short answer. I love ya' Artus. I have a lot more to say in that regard, but I can't formulate my thoughts properly right now. Just know that I think you're great. Keep being you.
Everyone else, old or new : Thank you for continuing to offer your own perceptions and feedback, and I urge the conversation to continue. It's productive. It's great. If we're all on the same communicative level about Clok and our thoughts on it, we can forge a stronger community for it. Like Jirato said earlier. I think all of us dream of this game having twice, or even three times it's current active population. If we keep our community strong, I think it's not just realistically feasible, but a genuine possibility as we continue to grow.
Thanks for hearing me out, as usual. I hope none of this is taken in the wrong way!
You declaratively shout, "frack Corvus. Support Shadgardians."
Zeldryn nods simply, that said, folding his arms back beneath a striated fiery-orange wool poncho.
Several townsfolk cheer in response to Zeldryn's shout!
Zeldryn nods simply, that said, folding his arms back beneath a striated fiery-orange wool poncho.
Several townsfolk cheer in response to Zeldryn's shout!
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
This has honestly been the kind of exchange I enjoy reading but since its nearly 3 AM i'm going to keep my own contributions short and sweet. So in no particular order.
1. Thanks Alila for starting the post. You are the best crazypants.
2. I want to give Vazbol a special mention and to somewhat echo his sentiments about the Good / evil balance in terms of support since I came across this conversation in chat the other day as well. The good guys might be losing right now but also from my own perspective it is rare for them to do so. I don't believe what Alexan mentioned earlier in this thread is invalid because of this however. the issue =of perminancy and dynamic gratifying content is its own can of worms though so I'll leave this point here.
3. Jirato. I suspected you may have been struggling with anxiety pretty early on. I found your responses to certain issues with the mud disporportional. I say this because I used to be the same way with my own stress. Probably still am with some things but hey ho. Point is, i think the notion of finding some kind of buffer or to better direct your support team to support you or even players to support you has some extreme merit. One thing that I have 100% always liked about you specifically as an admin is that you actually get stuff done. Even if your edits and changes aren't seemingly appreciated by most. I will always have respect for an admin that carries out bug fixes and actually makes sure his changes work on the mechanical level.
Noctere too, one of the reasons I even started playing clok was when I spotted the overhaul of rook edits. Something about seeing regular dev updates really clicks it into place that the MUD is still cared for. I have also always been closer to the side of, if you don't like it you don't have to play here than is probably healthy because I've been in situations where I'm just so tired of chasing my tale trying to please others that I feel like i can sympathize at least a little bit.
Keeping this in mind, I personally feel that there are a bunch of systems in the game,, administration systems not mechanical systems,, that make your job and those of the GMs harder than it needs to be. In an earlier post you commented on how much time is spent policing monks and templars. To me that sounds like the monitoring system is unequal to the task and the GMs are paying for it. How else could it have been done? I have no idea but if this had come to light earlier. Just how much time is spent on this one aspect of a much bigger game we might have been able to help.
I'm not suggesting forum brain storming is appropriate for everything, but if I had seen a post from you like...,
Guys, I seem to be spending over 20 percent of my hobby coding time here just monitoring church applications and this is a problem. My job is getting super stressful and the wife keeps calling a compass a protractor and that really is the last straw. I need out for a week or two so here, discuss this issue and when I get back we'll see what we'll see because if something doesn't change. I physically cannot keep up with this workload and may shut the guild until such a time that I feel I can enjoy this as a hobby again.
I can however, understand the feeling of stress building over an issue for a while then seemingly finding a good solution and immediately slotting it in to relieve that stress. As we've seen though, that method lacks communication and repeats the stress cycle when the implement is challenged however politely.
4. Someone said something on chat the other day I'd like to echo here. It was concerning that as even 6 month old players of Clok who are more capable. We are unable to truly understand the experience of new players anymore. I feel this sentiment is also applicable to GMs and players. To me, a large proportion of the tse gaiyan matter of earlier months would have been far less severe if the tse gaiyan players new what the GMs new about that organisation. The ethos of the guild is not very well communicated in the mud or on the wiki and though some IC portrayals of tse gaiyan behaviour may have been disagreeable. They were not outside the realm of plausability given what information was available.
The meeting with Alarayn was extremely helpful but if that information in the earlier portions of that meeting were better communicated on a plaque in the chapter house for example. And were better inforced at an earlier stage. I feel as though the issue would have had far less time to fester.
This is only one example where I feel communication IC falls sort of short and leads me to please ask that help file corrections and in game guild info updates become a priority at some point. Evening out the wrinkles and making sure that players actually know what they need to know to operate in the environment will save a lot of tiem and trouble in the future even if the setup is a little painful.
5. Using tse gaiyan as an example again because next to bards rangers are the next guild everyone likes to make their punching bag. I felt as though some of the conflict here could have been resolved if players were willing to get down and dirty. Even in my brief play of my gaiyan character I felt as though part of the reason Artus was getting so much traffic was people unwilling to take responsibility for the issues they cared about.
I'm not saying don't care about things but I would like to address the fact that conflict is part of interraction. If you don't do well with confrontation or conflict then don't put yourself in a position where it is the logical outcome. Causing conflict then passing the buck to your manager is unfair and a little bit irresponsible.
I'm not saying you can't play the charging heroic knight or the chaotic good spy with a heart of tarnished gold. Just recognize that some rolls have a certain element of conflict inherent to them and going in assuming there will be none, or knowing that you aren't the kind of player that can handle it very well is poor ettiquette and will leave you with a bad taste for the character you're playing, and everything connected to them, lines of roleplay, organisation etc.
Part of the issue again, is probably a lack of information on what the real experience of play in these guilds is like. Perhaps we should encourage OOC player journals on the forums for each guild and reward it somehow? Either way I want to end this point by saying this isn't an attack on anyone. If you need help with this sort of thing I and others are always around for a chat.
6. Finally my shtick and things.
Like I said above, I'm sort of a believer in the philosophy that if you don't like the food, you don't have to eat here. Its why for the short term future i'll be reducing my playtime in clok as a whole. Its a good game but as I grow older I sort of want to play a game where I feel like I can make a difference. I like grinding but these days my time is limited and so spending that time doing something that is just ok rather than truly fun,, whatever that means,, doesn't quite pass muster.
Now, what do I mean when I say make a difference? I don't mean become a leader or a guild master or a king or something. My first character that I played for any length of time was a survivalist. I wanted to go out into the woods and rarely go into towns. I did this and at first regardless of the sometimes clunky survivalist mechanics I enjoyed it. but for me making my mark means building a small hut. making something small and fun that is unique to just that character that I can point out years later. Oh hey, thats my hut, i build that drying rack with the notch in it from when i slipped and cut myself and boy do I remember this bow hung on the wall. it was my first and see there? Its broke when a deer rammed me and I parried.
I can't really build anything on clok I care for though and despite seemingly being able to set up things like player made buildings. Some versions of this is on the never never list which again. Your house your rules so fair enough.
I then got a little bit more clok experience and am now playing a Merc. Despite NPC mail, a request a few rituals, and a few thinks when I know there are GMs around. I've more or less had 0 interraction which is again fine for the most part. I would personally like to know exactly why there is 100% silence so I can improve my rituals and thinks in a way that will get some interaction with the environment though. And for me that's really the crux of it which is why I'm thankful Alila started this thread and why I'm posting this now. No real communication on if I'm doing something wrong. No real... anything at all.
Maybe this is just another inefficient system for GM pC interraction? I can't say for sure. I've never really had luck with these kinds of systems on other muds myself so maybe its just me? Couldn't tell you.
Anycase thats my 6 bits. I'll still be around for events and will probably log in once or twice a week. I just feel like i have little reason to really get invested is all.
1. Thanks Alila for starting the post. You are the best crazypants.
2. I want to give Vazbol a special mention and to somewhat echo his sentiments about the Good / evil balance in terms of support since I came across this conversation in chat the other day as well. The good guys might be losing right now but also from my own perspective it is rare for them to do so. I don't believe what Alexan mentioned earlier in this thread is invalid because of this however. the issue =of perminancy and dynamic gratifying content is its own can of worms though so I'll leave this point here.
3. Jirato. I suspected you may have been struggling with anxiety pretty early on. I found your responses to certain issues with the mud disporportional. I say this because I used to be the same way with my own stress. Probably still am with some things but hey ho. Point is, i think the notion of finding some kind of buffer or to better direct your support team to support you or even players to support you has some extreme merit. One thing that I have 100% always liked about you specifically as an admin is that you actually get stuff done. Even if your edits and changes aren't seemingly appreciated by most. I will always have respect for an admin that carries out bug fixes and actually makes sure his changes work on the mechanical level.
Noctere too, one of the reasons I even started playing clok was when I spotted the overhaul of rook edits. Something about seeing regular dev updates really clicks it into place that the MUD is still cared for. I have also always been closer to the side of, if you don't like it you don't have to play here than is probably healthy because I've been in situations where I'm just so tired of chasing my tale trying to please others that I feel like i can sympathize at least a little bit.
Keeping this in mind, I personally feel that there are a bunch of systems in the game,, administration systems not mechanical systems,, that make your job and those of the GMs harder than it needs to be. In an earlier post you commented on how much time is spent policing monks and templars. To me that sounds like the monitoring system is unequal to the task and the GMs are paying for it. How else could it have been done? I have no idea but if this had come to light earlier. Just how much time is spent on this one aspect of a much bigger game we might have been able to help.
I'm not suggesting forum brain storming is appropriate for everything, but if I had seen a post from you like...,
Guys, I seem to be spending over 20 percent of my hobby coding time here just monitoring church applications and this is a problem. My job is getting super stressful and the wife keeps calling a compass a protractor and that really is the last straw. I need out for a week or two so here, discuss this issue and when I get back we'll see what we'll see because if something doesn't change. I physically cannot keep up with this workload and may shut the guild until such a time that I feel I can enjoy this as a hobby again.
I can however, understand the feeling of stress building over an issue for a while then seemingly finding a good solution and immediately slotting it in to relieve that stress. As we've seen though, that method lacks communication and repeats the stress cycle when the implement is challenged however politely.
4. Someone said something on chat the other day I'd like to echo here. It was concerning that as even 6 month old players of Clok who are more capable. We are unable to truly understand the experience of new players anymore. I feel this sentiment is also applicable to GMs and players. To me, a large proportion of the tse gaiyan matter of earlier months would have been far less severe if the tse gaiyan players new what the GMs new about that organisation. The ethos of the guild is not very well communicated in the mud or on the wiki and though some IC portrayals of tse gaiyan behaviour may have been disagreeable. They were not outside the realm of plausability given what information was available.
The meeting with Alarayn was extremely helpful but if that information in the earlier portions of that meeting were better communicated on a plaque in the chapter house for example. And were better inforced at an earlier stage. I feel as though the issue would have had far less time to fester.
This is only one example where I feel communication IC falls sort of short and leads me to please ask that help file corrections and in game guild info updates become a priority at some point. Evening out the wrinkles and making sure that players actually know what they need to know to operate in the environment will save a lot of tiem and trouble in the future even if the setup is a little painful.
5. Using tse gaiyan as an example again because next to bards rangers are the next guild everyone likes to make their punching bag. I felt as though some of the conflict here could have been resolved if players were willing to get down and dirty. Even in my brief play of my gaiyan character I felt as though part of the reason Artus was getting so much traffic was people unwilling to take responsibility for the issues they cared about.
I'm not saying don't care about things but I would like to address the fact that conflict is part of interraction. If you don't do well with confrontation or conflict then don't put yourself in a position where it is the logical outcome. Causing conflict then passing the buck to your manager is unfair and a little bit irresponsible.
I'm not saying you can't play the charging heroic knight or the chaotic good spy with a heart of tarnished gold. Just recognize that some rolls have a certain element of conflict inherent to them and going in assuming there will be none, or knowing that you aren't the kind of player that can handle it very well is poor ettiquette and will leave you with a bad taste for the character you're playing, and everything connected to them, lines of roleplay, organisation etc.
Part of the issue again, is probably a lack of information on what the real experience of play in these guilds is like. Perhaps we should encourage OOC player journals on the forums for each guild and reward it somehow? Either way I want to end this point by saying this isn't an attack on anyone. If you need help with this sort of thing I and others are always around for a chat.
6. Finally my shtick and things.
Like I said above, I'm sort of a believer in the philosophy that if you don't like the food, you don't have to eat here. Its why for the short term future i'll be reducing my playtime in clok as a whole. Its a good game but as I grow older I sort of want to play a game where I feel like I can make a difference. I like grinding but these days my time is limited and so spending that time doing something that is just ok rather than truly fun,, whatever that means,, doesn't quite pass muster.
Now, what do I mean when I say make a difference? I don't mean become a leader or a guild master or a king or something. My first character that I played for any length of time was a survivalist. I wanted to go out into the woods and rarely go into towns. I did this and at first regardless of the sometimes clunky survivalist mechanics I enjoyed it. but for me making my mark means building a small hut. making something small and fun that is unique to just that character that I can point out years later. Oh hey, thats my hut, i build that drying rack with the notch in it from when i slipped and cut myself and boy do I remember this bow hung on the wall. it was my first and see there? Its broke when a deer rammed me and I parried.
I can't really build anything on clok I care for though and despite seemingly being able to set up things like player made buildings. Some versions of this is on the never never list which again. Your house your rules so fair enough.
I then got a little bit more clok experience and am now playing a Merc. Despite NPC mail, a request a few rituals, and a few thinks when I know there are GMs around. I've more or less had 0 interraction which is again fine for the most part. I would personally like to know exactly why there is 100% silence so I can improve my rituals and thinks in a way that will get some interaction with the environment though. And for me that's really the crux of it which is why I'm thankful Alila started this thread and why I'm posting this now. No real communication on if I'm doing something wrong. No real... anything at all.
Maybe this is just another inefficient system for GM pC interraction? I can't say for sure. I've never really had luck with these kinds of systems on other muds myself so maybe its just me? Couldn't tell you.
Anycase thats my 6 bits. I'll still be around for events and will probably log in once or twice a week. I just feel like i have little reason to really get invested is all.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Thank you for your post Glare,
I am sure the points you brought up are very much appreciated. I am pretty close to the time I would normally head to bed, so I think I'll address the last bit of your post. I am not trying to stop you from stepping back or anything. I won't try and point out different things that have been done to try and include you. I will however make it extremely clear, that when we plan out an event, or merchants, we try and include as many players as possible. I actually recall you specifically going on a trip very soon as one of the contributing reasons as to why the festival was released earlier than it was suppose to be. Of course there were other reasons as well, but it was definitely a pro for doing so.
While we would love to provide every player with their own custom unique GM supported storyline, it simply isn't possible. Seriously, you guys are great, and making this a special experience is something we love to do. Unfortunately, time constraints, as well as other factors prevent this from being reality. We do see your thoughts, we might not always see your emotes or know what is going on with your characters, but we genuinely appreciate the time you invest into your own characters and do our best to work up events in which they would fit. I do hope you find what you are looking for, even if it is not with us.
I am sure the points you brought up are very much appreciated. I am pretty close to the time I would normally head to bed, so I think I'll address the last bit of your post. I am not trying to stop you from stepping back or anything. I won't try and point out different things that have been done to try and include you. I will however make it extremely clear, that when we plan out an event, or merchants, we try and include as many players as possible. I actually recall you specifically going on a trip very soon as one of the contributing reasons as to why the festival was released earlier than it was suppose to be. Of course there were other reasons as well, but it was definitely a pro for doing so.
While we would love to provide every player with their own custom unique GM supported storyline, it simply isn't possible. Seriously, you guys are great, and making this a special experience is something we love to do. Unfortunately, time constraints, as well as other factors prevent this from being reality. We do see your thoughts, we might not always see your emotes or know what is going on with your characters, but we genuinely appreciate the time you invest into your own characters and do our best to work up events in which they would fit. I do hope you find what you are looking for, even if it is not with us.
Speaking to Dionisia, Eagalon apologetically says, "I am sorry that you also had to suffer this time too. but i definitely think that some arse hole is targetting me."
Dionisia says, "I could barely see in front of me."
Vlora says, "Is someone just really ripping a good one everywhere they go."
Aelarra quietly says, "Definitely an aeromancer."
[EVENTCHAT Uyoku]: Sorry cat laying in tap, tying hard.
Dionisia says, "I could barely see in front of me."
Vlora says, "Is someone just really ripping a good one everywhere they go."
Aelarra quietly says, "Definitely an aeromancer."
[EVENTCHAT Uyoku]: Sorry cat laying in tap, tying hard.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
To clarify, I'm not really looking for a storyline as such. Though that would be something. Most of what i've been looking for in my previous thinks and the most recent would be satisfied with a single letter response or a single nPCs 5 minute interraction. I can see why it may have been thought that I want something special and involved spanning days or weeks just for me since that might be what others have wanted but I'm pretty shy about something like that. I get nervous being the main character and don't enjoy the spotlight even in games for prolonged periods of time. Its why I don't tend to engage in any kind of personal roleplay, chit chat and prologned one on one interraction is hell on wheels for me.
Thanks for opening up the festival early. I can guarantee it was appreciated 100%. I was like a kid on christmas in there and droolled over pretty much everything. Mostly wishing I played a character that would have had a reason to buy at least one of everything.
And while I admit I do have a problem with solo player syndrome in some ways. I make an effort to join in on events i hear about because I feel not doing so can be discurteous.
My recent think would require GM interaction in anygame so I'm not saying your response has no merit. But in the past my rituals have mostly been about building something or something else in that vein. It was only recently for example that I cought the comment that requests aren't fulfilled faster partially because if a GM is going to do it then they want to know that the work isn't going to get wasted on a character or an alt that isn't going to appreciate it.
This statement is more than reasonable. However I feel that given Clok's feel and crafting potential , there are things like player housing. Things like player buildings, player settlements, player farmsteads. Player caused destructable environments and objects etc that in my opinion should be automated or semi automated so the GMs don't have to manual drive it. That is, if time and effort on the part of GMs are a factor in considering creation projects.
And I know these come with their own problems. item hording, item limits etc. The suggestions above were spitball examples. Point is, I think there is a large area of managing dynamic content this game that could be done more efficiently. And I guess at the end of the day that's sort of what i'm looking for. Dynamic player made content or perhaps dynamic player influenced content such as if the faction mechanics with the towns were a bit more transparent and effective at making the player feel influenced / influencial in some way.
i briefly tried clok in 2015 or so but didn't stick around since I had a main game at that time. I bring this up because I recall seeing something in Shadgard that made me think that players could influence who was Mayor of shadgard? Whether this was wrong or not that's something I can see myself really digging into if faction status was a thing. I could see myself making player made content specifically to become influencial enough to involve myself in there so my vote and bribes and status saw me picking the corrupt guy NPC or PC who was goign to give me my plot of land to start growing void canabis that can make nethrim high or something. (Officially submitting idea that the zenophobic scarecrow farmers should be given void canabis or at least moonshine. Nothing funnier than a drunk zenophobic farmer).
As real examples here are some things that I personally feel could be given to players that probably wouldn't go wrong often enough to counterbalance tiem saved.
1. Gates and barriers.
If player construction was a thing. Schema of gates and portcullis that required multiple players working together to make would take away Jirato's need to have a special nPC fix the Shadgard gates which have been left destroyed for an unrealistic number of years. Effective also would these objects be used as a way of making player enforced territory without actually having to build anything else. Two or three gates blocking off a pass with farms between them would make a huge place for feasably safe farming.
2. giving players the ability to make their own craftmarks and other short unique custom descs.
Mostly extending this one to include the most common description type edits as that come up on the request list. I'm always told (by players) this would then mean that GMs have to spend more time policing it. Even were this true, I'm not entirely sure this has ever been tried on Clok or what collective experience GMs have had with these kinds of systems but in my own. I see that players are happy to police things like this if given the chance and ability to do so.
Even if not, then having a karma system where you're marked down for spelling mistakes or other abuses of custom edits would be reasonable. The system then can autoremove you from description commands for 6 months or until you do something where a GM rewards you with positive Karma.
As Jirato has mentioned wanting to see the player base double or tripple longterm I am very confident that achieving this will require tapping into other player pools and I personally know 4 people that don't play Clok specifically because they can't sit in town and weave clothing or customize their stuff the way they want it. Even though the lore of the game is very attractive to them. In addition, if the dream is to have the player base grow. i feel very strongly that eventually the management of the game will be forced to become more efficient if time is a factor in why somethings don't come to fruition.
We were all much younger and as a general rule had more free time when mudding was more populated. I'm pretty sure though that at least some GMs that did it back in the day could not devote the same amount of time that they used to if the player base regained something like pre 2003 levels of playership.
As a test run, perhaps instead of doing the next Octum fest solo? Open up player submission for descripsions of rooms and shop items? Should save you guys some time if you let Firerose burn off her passion for descriptions a bit.
I.e. Post: Octum fest items:
Hey guys we need descriptions for these items.
Spider shield, Nethrim milk man costume, Dread ninjanitor costume, etc.
Might not be as much of a surprise in the item themselves but I can guarantee we would all be just as excited to see what other players had come up with.
I'm always gung-ho about doing less work for better gain so if I can assist. You have my email.
thanks
Thanks for opening up the festival early. I can guarantee it was appreciated 100%. I was like a kid on christmas in there and droolled over pretty much everything. Mostly wishing I played a character that would have had a reason to buy at least one of everything.
And while I admit I do have a problem with solo player syndrome in some ways. I make an effort to join in on events i hear about because I feel not doing so can be discurteous.
My recent think would require GM interaction in anygame so I'm not saying your response has no merit. But in the past my rituals have mostly been about building something or something else in that vein. It was only recently for example that I cought the comment that requests aren't fulfilled faster partially because if a GM is going to do it then they want to know that the work isn't going to get wasted on a character or an alt that isn't going to appreciate it.
This statement is more than reasonable. However I feel that given Clok's feel and crafting potential , there are things like player housing. Things like player buildings, player settlements, player farmsteads. Player caused destructable environments and objects etc that in my opinion should be automated or semi automated so the GMs don't have to manual drive it. That is, if time and effort on the part of GMs are a factor in considering creation projects.
And I know these come with their own problems. item hording, item limits etc. The suggestions above were spitball examples. Point is, I think there is a large area of managing dynamic content this game that could be done more efficiently. And I guess at the end of the day that's sort of what i'm looking for. Dynamic player made content or perhaps dynamic player influenced content such as if the faction mechanics with the towns were a bit more transparent and effective at making the player feel influenced / influencial in some way.
i briefly tried clok in 2015 or so but didn't stick around since I had a main game at that time. I bring this up because I recall seeing something in Shadgard that made me think that players could influence who was Mayor of shadgard? Whether this was wrong or not that's something I can see myself really digging into if faction status was a thing. I could see myself making player made content specifically to become influencial enough to involve myself in there so my vote and bribes and status saw me picking the corrupt guy NPC or PC who was goign to give me my plot of land to start growing void canabis that can make nethrim high or something. (Officially submitting idea that the zenophobic scarecrow farmers should be given void canabis or at least moonshine. Nothing funnier than a drunk zenophobic farmer).
As real examples here are some things that I personally feel could be given to players that probably wouldn't go wrong often enough to counterbalance tiem saved.
1. Gates and barriers.
If player construction was a thing. Schema of gates and portcullis that required multiple players working together to make would take away Jirato's need to have a special nPC fix the Shadgard gates which have been left destroyed for an unrealistic number of years. Effective also would these objects be used as a way of making player enforced territory without actually having to build anything else. Two or three gates blocking off a pass with farms between them would make a huge place for feasably safe farming.
2. giving players the ability to make their own craftmarks and other short unique custom descs.
Mostly extending this one to include the most common description type edits as that come up on the request list. I'm always told (by players) this would then mean that GMs have to spend more time policing it. Even were this true, I'm not entirely sure this has ever been tried on Clok or what collective experience GMs have had with these kinds of systems but in my own. I see that players are happy to police things like this if given the chance and ability to do so.
Even if not, then having a karma system where you're marked down for spelling mistakes or other abuses of custom edits would be reasonable. The system then can autoremove you from description commands for 6 months or until you do something where a GM rewards you with positive Karma.
As Jirato has mentioned wanting to see the player base double or tripple longterm I am very confident that achieving this will require tapping into other player pools and I personally know 4 people that don't play Clok specifically because they can't sit in town and weave clothing or customize their stuff the way they want it. Even though the lore of the game is very attractive to them. In addition, if the dream is to have the player base grow. i feel very strongly that eventually the management of the game will be forced to become more efficient if time is a factor in why somethings don't come to fruition.
We were all much younger and as a general rule had more free time when mudding was more populated. I'm pretty sure though that at least some GMs that did it back in the day could not devote the same amount of time that they used to if the player base regained something like pre 2003 levels of playership.
As a test run, perhaps instead of doing the next Octum fest solo? Open up player submission for descripsions of rooms and shop items? Should save you guys some time if you let Firerose burn off her passion for descriptions a bit.
I.e. Post: Octum fest items:
Hey guys we need descriptions for these items.
Spider shield, Nethrim milk man costume, Dread ninjanitor costume, etc.
Might not be as much of a surprise in the item themselves but I can guarantee we would all be just as excited to see what other players had come up with.
I'm always gung-ho about doing less work for better gain so if I can assist. You have my email.
thanks
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
I'm just going to jump in and clarify a bit of what Glare mentioned in the first post, number 4 and 5 specifically among others.
I'm not sure if it was me who said it on chat (I knew I did to kent but couldn't remember if it was also me doing so) that we can't think for newbs when we're not newbs anymore. Any problems newbs face, we may not even think of. At the same time, what we think may be rough for them may be something enjoyable. The mentioning of "it's gonna be hard for new players" makes sense in some cases, but not all of them.
The problem with Tse Gaiyan is not because of the guild itself or the info. Tse Gaiyan on the wiki is fine. The banner is fine. Anything is fine. There're only two things not fine:
- Someone messed up in the past with the entire roles and stuff, reason why position system had to go. It wasn't started when Tse Gaiyan started. Jirato, however, thankfully brought it to the starting point, but that had to be after a lot of screwing up from player side and the mess that showed positions didn't work. Roles weren't stated nywhere after whoever invented those roles left. No one here had an idea, not even Jirato from what I heard. Then, it happened.
- To further the complication, we don't have any sort of general guideline for Tse Gaiyan. The new mentor thing we came up with is really what I personally suport and it seems players like it too. At the same time, something of a general guideline, may be a book of sort about being Tse Gaiyan may be cool to be added. Thinking of this, I kinda would like to plan a gathering of players in the organization and have everyone help writing together. This way, it's a common, everyone agreed upon sort of knowledge. Don't think it should be sold though in case people want to bring it out for outsiders to see. Stationary book should do.
The gate system sounds neat, actually. If gms or whoever plot a story to destroy it, at least it creates something for players to do instead of standing guard there bored to death. (Hey! Don't point at me! I know I'm bored.) Guarding is only fun when there are more than three awkward people in the room. And if one of them is artus, count two because I'm distracted most of the time. But that's not the point. The point is the story. We have events now and seem to have it quite a lot too. Having this kinda stuff may encourage players, especially wild folks, to participate in town events more if nothing else, or for town folks themselves, something more fun for them to thrill over.
Cheers, long live clok! You guys saved my life.
I'm not sure if it was me who said it on chat (I knew I did to kent but couldn't remember if it was also me doing so) that we can't think for newbs when we're not newbs anymore. Any problems newbs face, we may not even think of. At the same time, what we think may be rough for them may be something enjoyable. The mentioning of "it's gonna be hard for new players" makes sense in some cases, but not all of them.
The problem with Tse Gaiyan is not because of the guild itself or the info. Tse Gaiyan on the wiki is fine. The banner is fine. Anything is fine. There're only two things not fine:
- Someone messed up in the past with the entire roles and stuff, reason why position system had to go. It wasn't started when Tse Gaiyan started. Jirato, however, thankfully brought it to the starting point, but that had to be after a lot of screwing up from player side and the mess that showed positions didn't work. Roles weren't stated nywhere after whoever invented those roles left. No one here had an idea, not even Jirato from what I heard. Then, it happened.
- To further the complication, we don't have any sort of general guideline for Tse Gaiyan. The new mentor thing we came up with is really what I personally suport and it seems players like it too. At the same time, something of a general guideline, may be a book of sort about being Tse Gaiyan may be cool to be added. Thinking of this, I kinda would like to plan a gathering of players in the organization and have everyone help writing together. This way, it's a common, everyone agreed upon sort of knowledge. Don't think it should be sold though in case people want to bring it out for outsiders to see. Stationary book should do.
The gate system sounds neat, actually. If gms or whoever plot a story to destroy it, at least it creates something for players to do instead of standing guard there bored to death. (Hey! Don't point at me! I know I'm bored.) Guarding is only fun when there are more than three awkward people in the room. And if one of them is artus, count two because I'm distracted most of the time. But that's not the point. The point is the story. We have events now and seem to have it quite a lot too. Having this kinda stuff may encourage players, especially wild folks, to participate in town events more if nothing else, or for town folks themselves, something more fun for them to thrill over.
Cheers, long live clok! You guys saved my life.
[CHAT - Event Staff Uyoku likes NOM NOM NOM food]: You are holding a pepper-grilled Uyoku in your right hand.
This GM has been peppered and grillef over an open flame to a juicy perfection.
This GM has been peppered and grillef over an open flame to a juicy perfection.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
The last couple weeks have, without a doubt, been the most fun I've had on CLOK in a long time. I grin like an idiot when GMs and players are on chat dropping song links or recommending books. The events have all been great, and I love that we have some run by staff and some run by players. There have been so many little things that bring me joy, and I want to say thank you. I feel like most everyone has done a great job of putting their opinions out there and hearing other opinions. CLOK has been a lot nicer, a lot more fun, and a lot more intentional.
Thank you, everyone.
Thank you, everyone.
-
Smoothcoffee
- Member
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- Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:40 am
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Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Hello,
I did not know where else to post this, but thought I should communicate as openly as I can.
I'm hurting. A lot.
I'm trying. A lot.
I feel isolated, a lot.
It has felt over the past month that tensions with characters and Safiyah have been becoming increasingly hostile to a point where it felt like I was actively being bullied. I've tried to say things to indicate that I needed people to stop. But it's begun to feel so targeted that I no longer want to play.
I love Sofi so much. I love what she stands for and the roleplay I have. But. When I say something wrong and just get... dogpiled on consistently within a week and no one says anything, I feel isolated. Alone. Like I am not wanted here. If it makes people happy, I'll stop playing. But just know. That it has gotten to a point where I'm afraid to say anything because it is taken out of context. And I shake and have anxiety because I'm just trying to have fun, be a good templar, improve my roleplay.
I'm sorry if I've offended people oocly or something in such a way that they feel the need to attack my character so harshly that it feels personal. I don't know what to do anymore. I'm sorry.
I did not know where else to post this, but thought I should communicate as openly as I can.
I'm hurting. A lot.
I'm trying. A lot.
I feel isolated, a lot.
It has felt over the past month that tensions with characters and Safiyah have been becoming increasingly hostile to a point where it felt like I was actively being bullied. I've tried to say things to indicate that I needed people to stop. But it's begun to feel so targeted that I no longer want to play.
I love Sofi so much. I love what she stands for and the roleplay I have. But. When I say something wrong and just get... dogpiled on consistently within a week and no one says anything, I feel isolated. Alone. Like I am not wanted here. If it makes people happy, I'll stop playing. But just know. That it has gotten to a point where I'm afraid to say anything because it is taken out of context. And I shake and have anxiety because I'm just trying to have fun, be a good templar, improve my roleplay.
I'm sorry if I've offended people oocly or something in such a way that they feel the need to attack my character so harshly that it feels personal. I don't know what to do anymore. I'm sorry.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Welcome to why I don't play Maina actively anymore. It's been the same since I first created her. Playing a character with any sense of morality is fundamentally at odds with a game about mass-murdering NPCs for profit and makes you a target to anyone who just wants to kill things in their free time. Murder is about all there is to do here, so characters/factions that have a reason to push back against murder get ostracized.
Of course, there's much more to it, but I think that's the core.
Of course, there's much more to it, but I think that's the core.
[FROM Zeldryn (OOC)]: STOP BEING AMAZING. IT'S AMAZING.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Given that the first Maxed skill on my combat character isn't a combat skill. I'd say its pretty hyperbolic to say that murder is all there is to do here.Maina wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:09 pm Welcome to why I don't play Maina actively anymore. It's been the same since I first created her. Playing a character with any sense of morality is fundamentally at odds with a game about mass-murdering NPCs for profit and makes you a target to anyone who just wants to kill things in their free time. Murder is about all there is to do here, so characters/factions that have a reason to push back against murder get ostracized.
Of course, there's much more to it, but I think that's the core.
I can't speak to your subjective experiences but the fact that you can play clok for a very long time without becoming a target is objective truth.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Sorry to hear this, SC. If any of my chars had been actively antagonistic towards yours, please be assured that they are purely ic. I admire you as a player, your ability to make each one unique and alive. I hope you the best however.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
I'm sorry that you are hurting, SC. That makes me very sad.
Unfortunately (and fortunately), CLOK's character makeup is a spectrum of grays. At any given time we have a handful of truly "good" folks and a handful of truly "bad" folks. All of the grays have to define themselves, and sometimes the quickest and easiest way to do that is to push against the two edges. So people who play good and bad characters do feel targeted. It sucks and it's unfair and it's heavy -- I've experienced it first hand and I've also seen it happen.
People going after a player's character means that the character is well enough crafted, played, and designed that it can act as a counterpoint. It is a nod to RP skill, in a way. After all, if a character is not well crafted, there's nothing with which to clash.
I think that Safiyah is an unmistakably important part of CLOK. I tend to think of our game not as a single main character book but as a tv series with a large main cast of characters, like Game of Thrones or the West Wing or Parks and Rec. I definitely think of Safiyah as "primary billing," in that, in the main credits, she would be one of the first characters we see. Those characters always see the most conflict, but they also see the most love and fans. You definitely have love and fans, on an ic and ooc level.
Without putting too fine of a point on it, the world has been... pretty challenging for basically everyone over the past year or so. Global pandemics, political reckonings and unrest, all of these things are going to have implications on our emotional health for a long time to come. There is nothing at all wrong with saying "you know, I have a lot of conflict in my real life right now, I don't want that in my game life, so I'm not going to play a conflict magnet." Because, unfortunately, that is what good and evil characters (and any really well crafted character) will be -- a conflict magnet. People targeting Safiyah ic isn't necessarily an indication that you have done something wrong, maybe it's a sign you've done something right.
All of that being said, if you genuinely feel like folks are taking ic ooc (or the other way around), I hope and believe that the staff is able to respond, investigate, and take care of it. We as a community need to realize that those choosing to play the good and the evil characters are, in many ways, taking on a burden for the betterment of the entire game. We who play good and bad characters also have to realize that we are taking on that burden, and have to give ourselves permission to put it down at any point we need.
If you need a break from Safiyah (or from CLOK), please know that you are loved, your skill with rp is admired, and we will be happy to warmly welcome you back
when and if you feel ready to pick up the iron shield again. You as a human comes first, always. At the end of the day, I am thankful to play this game along with my friends, no matter what character, alignment, or build they happen ot take on.
Unfortunately (and fortunately), CLOK's character makeup is a spectrum of grays. At any given time we have a handful of truly "good" folks and a handful of truly "bad" folks. All of the grays have to define themselves, and sometimes the quickest and easiest way to do that is to push against the two edges. So people who play good and bad characters do feel targeted. It sucks and it's unfair and it's heavy -- I've experienced it first hand and I've also seen it happen.
People going after a player's character means that the character is well enough crafted, played, and designed that it can act as a counterpoint. It is a nod to RP skill, in a way. After all, if a character is not well crafted, there's nothing with which to clash.
I think that Safiyah is an unmistakably important part of CLOK. I tend to think of our game not as a single main character book but as a tv series with a large main cast of characters, like Game of Thrones or the West Wing or Parks and Rec. I definitely think of Safiyah as "primary billing," in that, in the main credits, she would be one of the first characters we see. Those characters always see the most conflict, but they also see the most love and fans. You definitely have love and fans, on an ic and ooc level.
Without putting too fine of a point on it, the world has been... pretty challenging for basically everyone over the past year or so. Global pandemics, political reckonings and unrest, all of these things are going to have implications on our emotional health for a long time to come. There is nothing at all wrong with saying "you know, I have a lot of conflict in my real life right now, I don't want that in my game life, so I'm not going to play a conflict magnet." Because, unfortunately, that is what good and evil characters (and any really well crafted character) will be -- a conflict magnet. People targeting Safiyah ic isn't necessarily an indication that you have done something wrong, maybe it's a sign you've done something right.
All of that being said, if you genuinely feel like folks are taking ic ooc (or the other way around), I hope and believe that the staff is able to respond, investigate, and take care of it. We as a community need to realize that those choosing to play the good and the evil characters are, in many ways, taking on a burden for the betterment of the entire game. We who play good and bad characters also have to realize that we are taking on that burden, and have to give ourselves permission to put it down at any point we need.
If you need a break from Safiyah (or from CLOK), please know that you are loved, your skill with rp is admired, and we will be happy to warmly welcome you back
when and if you feel ready to pick up the iron shield again. You as a human comes first, always. At the end of the day, I am thankful to play this game along with my friends, no matter what character, alignment, or build they happen ot take on.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
I haven't posted on the BBS for a long time for reasons, but I really feel I need to add a comment here. I have been on a lot of muds, in general. I have left most of those muds permanently, some I come and go in intervals of years, some a bit more frequent. A lot of the reason this is the case is the fact that communication is lacking. I just want to say that for this lifetime cynic this thread is extremely heart warming and should never be forgotten. I would even go so far as to have a permanent link to this thread in one of the policies, both as an example to new players and easy access for players that need it. I have several alts, black, gray, and white hats. I don't play as often as I'd like, but I've been around a bit more lately for those of you in the know. I do find the morality characters at either extreme to be hard for me as I still struggle with morality in real life. I can't say I sympathize with everyone's pain here, but I do empathize with you and I truly hope that everyone remembers that player mental health is always going to be the fundamental driver behind that character you are antagonizing. Life in the real world isn't fair and I'm a big believer in a fair amount of realism in games, but I also try to look at things from various perspectives. If there is one comment in all of these posts that struck home with me it is the comment about how if you can't find a way to make it fun for those who stand no chance, then postpone it and see if there is a way to do so.
For example, I played Xavier as my first char and decided he wouldn't talk for reasons I had in my head. This was awesome and I had loads of great rp with people just based on that fact. Originally I had no intentions of making him illiterate, but I took over a year off and when I came back the first encounter I had with another person they handed him a slate and chalk. That pretty much drained the life out of Xavier for me. I've since decided that he's illiterate too and those reasons are easily incorporated into his back story. I'll probably have to convince a few players from way back when that he wasn't actually writing but drawing very detailed pictures, but hey. I'll just play dumb. I'm good at that. lol
For example, I played Xavier as my first char and decided he wouldn't talk for reasons I had in my head. This was awesome and I had loads of great rp with people just based on that fact. Originally I had no intentions of making him illiterate, but I took over a year off and when I came back the first encounter I had with another person they handed him a slate and chalk. That pretty much drained the life out of Xavier for me. I've since decided that he's illiterate too and those reasons are easily incorporated into his back story. I'll probably have to convince a few players from way back when that he wasn't actually writing but drawing very detailed pictures, but hey. I'll just play dumb. I'm good at that. lol
Rain falls steadily to the earth.
The gore has been washed from you.
The blood has been washed from you.
You are splattered with gore!
Rain falls steadily to the earth.
The gore has been washed from you.
The blood has been washed from you.
You are splattered with gore!
The gore has been washed from you.
The blood has been washed from you.
You are splattered with gore!
Rain falls steadily to the earth.
The gore has been washed from you.
The blood has been washed from you.
You are splattered with gore!
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
I hope everyone is doing well. If there's a better way to make the following point please point me towards it.
Whenever I go to the bbs.clokmud.com address I still see "There's a lot more to Contrarium than just CLOK. if you're looking for the site previously at this address (the CLOK BBS), please go to "
I feel that this, as communication and marketing, perhaps might need some consideration. This is because, by saying "a lot more" and "just CLOK," the framing of the statement is diminishing CLOK. I am a huge fan (obviously) of both CLOK and COG as games, communities, IP, and products. I genuinely have warmth for all staff on both games. And I know that the games are partners, rather than competitors. When saying something like "more than just CLOK," it feels like I'm standing outside of Coffee store A and saying "Looking for a coffee store? There's more than just coffee! Come to my diner." I am positive the language was unintentional, but it presents the two options as unequal, and to me as a long-time player (who was around when COG started), it feels like a slight. I can imagine it may have a similar impact on new players who are relying on an old address.
Definitely not trying to start conflict or hurt anyone's feelings, but this was a thread about communication and its consequences, and it's something that I have noticed for a week or two, so I thought I'd bring it up.
Whenever I go to the bbs.clokmud.com address I still see "There's a lot more to Contrarium than just CLOK. if you're looking for the site previously at this address (the CLOK BBS), please go to "
I feel that this, as communication and marketing, perhaps might need some consideration. This is because, by saying "a lot more" and "just CLOK," the framing of the statement is diminishing CLOK. I am a huge fan (obviously) of both CLOK and COG as games, communities, IP, and products. I genuinely have warmth for all staff on both games. And I know that the games are partners, rather than competitors. When saying something like "more than just CLOK," it feels like I'm standing outside of Coffee store A and saying "Looking for a coffee store? There's more than just coffee! Come to my diner." I am positive the language was unintentional, but it presents the two options as unequal, and to me as a long-time player (who was around when COG started), it feels like a slight. I can imagine it may have a similar impact on new players who are relying on an old address.
Definitely not trying to start conflict or hurt anyone's feelings, but this was a thread about communication and its consequences, and it's something that I have noticed for a week or two, so I thought I'd bring it up.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
I don't really get it, but I removed the wording on bbs.contrarium.net and just simplified it. It's something I originally threw together in about 10 seconds without any thought, I'm not sure what kinda meaning was read into it, but with the new simplified landing page, it should be better now, I guess?
[GMCHAT Uyoku]: Octum is when the octumbunny comes around and lays pumpkins everywhere right?
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!
[GMCHAT Rias]: Dimmes says "oh hai :) u need healz? ill get u dont worry thaum lasers pew pew pew lol"
[CHAT - GameMaster Rias would totally nuke Rooks]: Here's how elemancy works: The freeblegreeble and the zippoflasm have to be combined with the correct ration of himbleplimp, then you add the gargenheimer and adjust the froopulon for the pattern you want, apply some tarratarrtarr, yibble the wantaban, and let 'er rip!
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Hey J. I was looking at the bbs.clokmud.com address (the one I was referencing in my post) and it looks like the language is the same. I checked bbs.contrarium.net and I saw the different language there. I honestly don't know enough about website creation/ownership to know the difference between these two, but I assume they're two different web entities? I was referring to the language on the bbs.clokmud.com address, not the contrarium.net one.
I really appreciate your responding.
I really appreciate your responding.
Re: The Importance of Good Communication
Vidor,
When visiting bbs.clokmud.com, the page reads:
When visiting bbs.clokmud.com, the page reads:
Are you still seeing something different?bbs.clokmud.com wrote: Contrarium.net BBS Index:
• CLOK - http://clok.contrarium.net/bbs
• COGG - http://cogg.contrarium.net/bbs