Elystole

[Vitello]

Nothing personal, I've had no interaction with him myself.

What troubles me is everything I hear about him from other players is that he kills outpost characters..... over and over and over and over. Several people have said that people stopped playing outpost characters because Elystole hunts them incessantly.

So what is the situation?

If you're getting killed over vendettas and plots that is one thing, you're going to loose as the bad guy. If it is just because someone's name is on a list in Shadgard though that is counter productive. While perhaps not the intention it is griefing and stifling an entire faction. Players play badguys to -play badguys- not just get killed by good guys.

I don't mean to stir crap, I'm just saying I'm smelling a lot of it. I'm willing to wager there is fault on both sides.

[Skah]

Vitello you need to chill with these kind of posts, really. I've really enjoyed Elystole's character. As far as I can tell he's always had good IC reasons for his actions, and I've never heard of anyone who stopped playing because of him.

[Nootau]

Hmm.. Is this 'Elystole' acting in good faith of Shadgard? If so is this grounds for a member of the Outpost to be justified in attacking freely those of Shadgard for aggression inflicted upon by their active agent 'Elystole'? If so, I might have to begin playing my Outpost supporter and causing chaos and blood letting without guilt.

[Vitello]

Skah I don't want to cause confrontation, but I have heard so much ooc there is a problem somewhere (it may not be elystole but there is a problem)

[jilliana]

Skah I don't want to cause confrontation, but I have heard so much ooc there is a problem somewhere (it may not be elystole but there is a problem)

I'm sure if other players have such a big problem with it, they are free to post or e-mail the staff. Otherwise, I think it's a good reason to take your issue IC and see what can be done about it.

Just my two cents.

[Alicia]

I think it is definitely not an OOC problem in and of itself, but there does appear to be something going on. There used to be a decent little cliche of Outpost players, now I know of none that are directly of the Outpost, and those that did have ties to the Outpost do all they can to not let that come up in a public manner.

Which is totally legit RP btw, it just seems weird that one place has pretty much gone extinct because doing anything publicly associated with them means 'Hunted' status right away.

[Vitello]

Jill by putting up this post I can tell players to post or stfu and move on.

[Elara]

It is kinda bad they are hunted cause of there status though.

[Alaia]

I have no personal opinion for either Vitello or Elystole. With that in mind, I would like to say something regarding the general subject matter, which seems to be the supposed Kill On Sight mentality of a PC in the game and how that impacts other players and their characters.

First, these sorts of threads should not really be a thing; they automatically foster a sense of people taking sides and ganging up (i.e. someone on Chat was already harping on it a bit too much when I logged in) on other people. I'm not agreeing with Skah, not really. His response was aggressive and rude and should have been worded differently. I'm just suggesting that next time, you take your concerns to the GMs instead of the playerbase, for your enjoyment and ours.

Second, Kill On Sight mentalities should not exist in a game where RP occurs without very good reason. Being part of a particular organization that is anathema to another organization is not, generally, a good reason. If it was, there would be a lot of excessive killing -- and being killed constantly does not foster a good RP environment, because it makes it very hard for a character to interact with other characters, and in fact quashes the desire of a player to play a PC. Would you enjoy your PC stepping out of their house and being killed, just because you chose to go down a path that others disapprove of? Naturally, the disapproval is in-character, but disapproval does not always have to turn into a Murderous Rampage. Of course, you could say "If you're going to get upset about it, don't do that RP.", but then we'd have a game full of people who only live in one area and act a certain way just because it keeps them from having to deal with grief.

People should consider that it's already hard to play something that's considered an antagonist. No one appreciates your efforts, because all they do is see you as "bad", and few people are willing to RP well against a roadblock in my experience. So when you then go out of your way to make a player's time difficult, when being an antagonist already removes you from much of the playerbase (i.e. Dunwyr, Corvites, etc.) by design, you become detrimental to the health of the game's playerbase.

I'm not saying this is what anyone in the game does. I'd like to think you're all good enough players to realize when something is damaging to the RP atmosphere and the health of the playerbase. I also strongly encourage everything to remain entirely IC, and if it really is the purview of a PC to kill someone else Just Because, by all means. Do it. But consider that you may eventually be the cause of people not wanting to play the game at all, and it only takes one person with a very poor reputation to ruin the RP atmosphere of any game.

(Now back to your scheduled programming!)

[Nootau]

It is kinda bad they are hunted cause of there status though.

Hunted by whom, which organization and/or governance? I am more than slightly out of the loop and would like to be updated is all.

[Vitello]

Alaia my dear, that is -exactly- the kind of intelligent discussion I was hoping to see bloom from this.

[jilliana]

It is kinda bad they are hunted cause of there status though.

Everyone in the game has the potential to get hunted. Church characters get hunted on occasion as well as other so-called innocent individuals. That's just the nature of the game.

[Skah]

I didn't mean to come off as rude, but it's a problem to make a thread with a character's name as the subject, and then make fairly serious accusations that aren't true. It's weirder because Vitello and Elystole haven't had IC interactions, as Vitello said in his initial post.

I feel a bit bad because I'm sure I'm partially responsible (IC) for Vitello's misunderstanding. No-one kills Corvites on sight, in my experience. Skah was never attacked for being a Corvite, and was openly one for over two years. That being said, there's loads of issues with Corvus and playing an "evil" character on Clok, and I'm willing to have an calm, adult conversation about that at some later date.

[Vitello]

Your part is minimal if that, Skah. This is things I have heard from others oocly.

[Vitello]

I aplogize. My aim was to be direct and not confrontational.

I'm not out to crucify Elystole. I have to admit from other things I have heard he has character depth and reasoning behind his story/actions. It -sounds- however that while story driven it could be dampening the rp of others.

Players are talking behind backs, and that is toxic to a game in my opinion and best dragged out into the light of day.

[Elystole]

My name is the title, so I suppose I should weigh in. This is a challenge, however, because to properly explain this situation involves discussing IC information and I don't want to cross the line on the boards.

I did say in my CvC thread that "I am not trying to drive players away, so if someone sends me a tell or private message asking me to stop I will discuss the issue with them. It will likely involve changes in both characters' behavior." No one has taken me up on this offer. Instead, I'll do my best with this thread.

I want to answer this allegation:

What troubles me is everything I hear about him from other players is that he kills outpost characters..... over and over and over and over. Several people have said that people stopped playing outpost characters because Elystole hunts them incessantly.

The only person that Elystole has killed repeatedly is Dara. That was a special situation and Jirato actually did take me aside to discuss it to make sure it wasn't a policy violation. Now there are people that Elystole has attacked repeatedly, and that is because they managed to escape him or defeat him the first time and he wanted a rematch. My usual policy is not to go after characters I've killed before (there are a couple of exceptions, but they are egregious exceptions) because, no, it isn't fun to be killed repeatedly (which I've experienced on other games), and, honestly, it isn't fun or satisfying to keep stomping someone who can't really fight back. Once Elystole has established that he can and, more importantly, will kill someone for their misdeeds I consider the matter settled unless they do something (like more misdeeds) to draw attention to themselves. I do try to be cognizant of other people's enjoyment of the game, and that has meant doing things like not crashing player events because as tempting as a target-rich environment is for a gun-slinging vigilante shooting up the organizers of player event is kind of douchey.

I do agree that there is a problem, which I have hinted at before, but we disagree on the nature of the problem. The problem as I see it is that we have several characters who have joined up with Team Rocket and are upset when people say, "Team Rocket?! But they're a flamboyant band of villains, miscreants, and ne'er-do-wells! You're evil!" I remember people complaining when Shadgard would ban them from the town once Shadgard learned that they were Corvites (or had done something heinous), so it follows that they are even more upset that they are not only banned from town but being shot.

Corvus is not a nice place. It is not filled with nice people. It is home to a guild of assassins, demons, necromancers, and just about every violent savage who got themselves kicked out of the other towns. It has a history of bringing nothing but pain, misery, bloodshed, death, and general unpleasantness to the surrounding region - and especially Shadgard - to the point that Ivial sent an army over the Wall (without telling them it was a one-way trip!) to smack Corvus around. Corvus is ruled by whichever bastard is strong enough to hold it. If you join Corvus - which takes work, by the way, so it is no accident - you are effectively saying "I am okay with this" if not "I support this." Because if you aren't okay with it or don't support it, why did you join?

It stands to follow that certain people, especially people with ties to the places or people who have been most harmed by Corvus, would not be okay with your allegiance to such a group.

Now, I do object to the accusation that I have been dampening other people's RP. Am I dampening their RP? Or am I dampening their narrative? There is a difference. Roleplaying is what happens when our characters react to the unexpected as brought to us by other players, the GMs, and the game mechanics. The narrative is how the story plays out in our head and how we might want it to go if we were to write it out. An encounter with Elystole is not dampening their RP; an encounter with Elystole is a consequence of their RP. I'll admit that it probably destroys their narrative - if their narrative was that they would get all the benefits of their association with Corvus or their various misdeeds without any negative consequences. For the most part, CLOK has been facilitating that narrative because most characters don't seem to care how wicked you are so long as it doesn't personally affect them. Elystole cares.

Elystole being killed by Zeel, Golyat, and Skjotur; running away from Spearhead; or screwing up his first attack on Kiyaani and having nothing to show for it but a stint in a jail cell and a rather hefty fine was part of his roleplay, but if I was writing a book about him the story probably wouldn't have gone that way. Reacting to these deviations from the narrative is part of why I enjoy roleplay and don't just spend my time writing books.

People have accused me of not roleplaying because Elystole walked in and shot them without speaking to them first. Sometimes Elystole talks with people before he shoots them; sometimes he doesn't. How a fight goes down depends on the particulars of that person and the situation. If Elystole isn't sure who someone is, their allegiance, or the situation, he'll interact with that person to decide one way or the other. A few people have managed to roleplay their way out of trouble (Skah and Lysse immediately come to mind). Others have gotten themselves into trouble (Xzean and Dara).

(One of the reasons I enjoyed RPing with Skah, despite it being frustrating, was that he was a master of plausible deniability. You knew he was up to something, but he always had a decent explanation for why things weren't what they seemed. You never caught him with his hand in the till. And he was always just helpful enough that you didn't want to alienate a potential - if shady - ally by going after him. I'm actually bummed that he isn't around anymore.)

But CLOK is not one of those games where we take turns emoting before our attacks (and I have played those games before). In the time that I'm standing there typing out a emote about how I'm about to shoot someone, they can buff themselves up, cast Metabolic Englaciation, or simply speed-walk away. It rather defeats the purpose of being one of the quickest guns in the Lost Lands. So if someone has crossed the line in Elystole's mind where he's gunning for them, he's just going to shoot them. He'd expect no less from his enemies. The roleplay in that fight was everything leading up to that point that pushed that person over the line and our interactions afterwards - which I'm sure you've all heard on ESP. Several people have told us to shut up.

If you're really wondering why Elystole is gunning for someone, read the wanted posters or the black list. If you ask him, he'll tell you. There are reasons why people are being hunted. Something that people seem to have ignored is that you can get Elystole off your case by removing those reasons: Get off the wanted list by doing your time and paying the fine. Renounce Corvus or somehow cast doubt on the blacklist. Write Wyatt or Sheriff Samuel Cotton. If either his boss or the sheriff of his town tell Elystole to knock it off, he'll probably listen to them. Maybe he has been too aggressive for their tastes.

And, with that, I'll leave you with part of the email that I sent Rias that precipitated the creation of the Outriders. Understand that this differs from what Rias decided upon (Outriders are less official than they may sound in this snippet, and Elystole is quick to distance himself from the official activities of the militia), but it gives you an idea of where Elystole is coming from.

Something about this post jabbed me just the right way. A few of your posts about character conduct (running off and hiding to grind skills, not working with each other,etc.) have prodded me a bit, but for PCs to be treating this like any other MUD and killing people is wrong. Similar to people abusing their horses, but worse. Anyways, though I came to CLOK for the clockwork devices, my getting a horse today and the effect that had on me and my character plus your post pushed me towards outriders. (And Relena looks like a sweetheart.)

Lore
Tired of people coming to their town, spilling blood, and raising hell just to flee into the wilderness, Shadgard Outriders are a group of somewhat obsessive manhunters tasked with bringing criminals to justice - wherever they may be found - and in dramatic fashion. Their riding, tracking, and shooting skills make them effective scouts and explorers (the term "Outrider" referring to these functions of their profession as a euphemism for their real work) even when they aren't on the hunt, but they are most feared when pursuing two-legged beasts.

One does not simply 'join' the Outriders. Usually, you first have to demonstrate yourself to be a true and loyal citizen of Shadgard (live in and work around the people, do business with them, RP not being a jerk, and other things) and your conduct is observed by militia guards, Outriders, and the general citizenry. Then an existing Outrider takes you under his wing to see how you handle yourself.

Outriders have a sometimes tense but professional relationship with the Guild of Thieves. Outriders usually don't concern themselves with theft, as they are worried about lost lives and not riln, so they tend not to pay much attention to the Guild as the Guild doesn't like its members drawing "undue attention" to their activities by killing people so they tend to police their own. When they can't, well, more than one wayward Thief with bloody hands has been given a "special" job that ended with his neck in a noose.

The Claw of Shar, on the other hand, is a completely different story...

We never forgive. We never forget. And we'll make you pay for what you've done.

[Vitello]

Well said, and I'm starting to suspect no one that has spoken behind your back will speak to your front.

[Avedri]

Hi,

I'm Octavia's player. I used to organize events and RP in Clok. I have not been online nor checked the forum in quite sometime. I was directed to this post tonight and I can speak for no one else but myself and my experiences.

Elystole killed my character, on-sight after he returned from a long absence and they had no IC interaction at all. The engagement was not RP'd and not that he needed my consent to do so, it's an open CvC game but it would have been greatly preferred. I can only assume this was because he knew Octavia was a member of the Coruvs Outpost. We had no interaction about it since he had returned from his absence.

I reached out in a tell to express my frustration/concern over the absence of interaction. He said I was meta gaming due to someone finding my corpse even though I didn't pulse when in fact that person was near my body and came across it while we were OOC discussing if I should even acknowledge the death because there was no RP and I was absolutely confused.

Because he seemed unwilling to RP in future endeavors, I decided Clok just wasn't where I wanted to be at this time. I have nothing against the player of Elystole, but I feel the general idea of a character who is given free reign to CvC/PvP and given mechanics to support such is rather absurd. I won't discuss much else because I don't want to internet fight over forums about a game that should be bringing people enjoyment and relaxation, but these accusations are not groundless, I am not the only person who feels this way as I have no contact with Vitello and this seems to be an ongoing situation.

And I don't want to publish IC information on an OOC forum but I do want to address this:

Corvus is ruled by whichever bastard is strong enough to hold it. If you join Corvus - which takes work, by the way, so it is no accident - you are effectively saying "I am okay with this" if not "I support this." Because if you aren't okay with it or don't support it, why did you join?

Why don't you try RPing with people to find out?

Also, to the general topic, this was the kind of thing I was hoping to have better defined during our Skype calls about what it means to engage in justifiable combat in Clok.

[Elystole]

Elystole killed my character, on-sight after he returned from a long absence and they had no IC interaction at all. The engagement was not RP'd and not that he needed my consent to do so, it's an open CvC game but it would have been greatly preferred. I can only assume this was because he knew Octavia was a member of the Coruvs Outpost. We had no interaction about it since he had returned from his absence.

Avedri, we did RP before that incident and after his return. We RPed when you and Laroremas walked right past Elystole into the Redrock Canyon. It was over ESP because you managed to give him the slip, and he even asked you why you did go to the Outpost. He wasn't satisfied with your responses and it was that RP plus your relationship to certain other characters which pushed the two of you over the line.

[Laroremas]

Elystole killed my character, on-sight after he returned from a long absence and they had no IC interaction at all. The engagement was not RP'd and not that he needed my consent to do so, it's an open CvC game but it would have been greatly preferred. I can only assume this was because he knew Octavia was a member of the Coruvs Outpost. We had no interaction about it since he had returned from his absence.

Avedri, we did RP before that incident and after his return. We RPed when you and Laroremas walked right past Elystole into the Redrock Canyon. It was over ESP because you managed to give him the slip, and he even asked you why you did go to the Outpost. He wasn't satisfied with your responses and it was that RP plus your relationship to certain other characters which pushed the two of you over the line.

I hope this doesn't ruin your narrative, but you walked by US and you shouted at us after we'd left by completely normal means from Shadgard (or rather, the portion of Shadgard that isn't policed IC by the Militia and never has been) without any attempt to "give you the slip".

You didn't ask her why she went to the Outpost, I wrote six lines over various ESP inputs in a bid to GOAD you into actual roleplay. It was a while ago, so I can forgive you for forgetting and just outright lying about it.

[Kiyaani]

I just want to address the original intent of this thread as I've sent Elystole a message about our IC interaction. I'm also not meaning to stir up anything. I generally respect Elystole's RP decisions even when they're against my character. Some of this is IC info so, sorry in advance.

1) I'm not sure who is saying he's PKing Corvites over and over again as I'm fairly sure that's not the case unless it means separate characters. In which case, yes, he has KOS'd three people (at least) with no interaction immediately beforehand and while they were minding their own business. My character was one of them. He did it to me twice. Once not successfully, once successfully.

Did I find this to be disruptive to my narrative? No. Did I find it disrespectful and in poor taste? Yes. Did I quit playing that character? No. Do I enjoy playing her knowing that his character has the ability to just walk in and kill her in one shot without any reaction time or RP? No. Does it affect my enjoyment of the game? Yes.

2) Elystole is not the sole reason for people having left the outpost lately. The outpost population fluctuates a lot more than other towns. It's the nature of it. However, recent events have likely played a bit more of a role in the most recent drought in outpost PCs. I suppose I have to take some of the blame for that.

If you want the outpost to flourish, we'll need more supportive RP in general. Hopefully that will come with time. Stick with it Vitello. I enjoy your character.

[Sneaky]

I think Elystole is fine, I personally haven't heard of anybody being killed over and over again, sept dara, but Dara sort of brings it upon himself to do that. I have been around Elystole and suspected Corvites, and he's never shot at them unless he has without a doubt knowledge of someone's association with the outpost, and even then sufficient reason is still required to do so.
The other thing is that role play, naritive, whatever you want to call it are extremely difficult to pull off in clok's combat system. Fights between skilled characters usually only last 2 rounds or 3 at the most, and there really usually isn't any time to rp if you are actively hunting something as how Elystole pointed out, it is extremely easy to run away and hide. This means that if you want to kill someone you have to either A. hope that they show enough restrain and do a bit of rp instead of running and then shoot them, or B. Walk in and shoot, then rp later. The latter is the most efective, and usually results in quicker progress.
One other thing I'd like to point out is that when you die you don't actually lose anything except the riln on your person, but even that can be put in a container. There is no real loss to your character or yourself other than a few minutes of time to return to the living. All killing someone does is show them that you have the ability to put them down, which in clok really isn't all that hard. There are various means that can acomplish this even if you are out skilled by a thousand points. I think the GM's police griefing very well, and maybe you have been gunned down by Elystole, but I'm pretty sure you haven't been gunned down twice in the same hour or day, let alone the same week. People have been throwing around the word griefing far too much. Real griefing is killing someone, then waiting for them to respawn then gunning them down again for hours on end without any reasoning other than being bored or simply not liking someone. This is not what I'm seeing or hearing of here. If you want rp reasons for the killing, then talk to him about it, interact to aquire the reasons why he did what he did. You can't find out what those reasons are if you get killed and then never log in again, get killed and refuse to speak of it, or refuse to acknowledge it.
In my own personal experience Elystole has had sufficient reasoning to do what he does, and I feel that if he didn't, the GM's would intervene in order to put a stop to it. Although the GM's are not always around to see when activities like this are done, you can always bring it to their attention with an email or PM. That in itself should be enough to squelch any nasty rumours about one player griefing another player.

[Fayne]

Alrighty, I want to weigh in. Maybe I'm not the best person to weigh in, but too bad.

Alright, so, the ossue here, it seems, it less Elystole and more CvC. In general, I think people on CLOK seem to support idea of CvC, but when it comes to actually dealing with CvC, then everyone wants to throw their hands up in the air and act offended, yelling accusations of abuse and griefing.

I've not really been in enough CvC situations to weigh in on exactly what Elystole is doing, or from personal experience. But you know, I would like to point something out: No one complained this much about Acarin, and he had less RP than Elystole sometimes, and far less actual readons besides "Bwahaha, I'm evil." The main differencr I see? This time, the people getting killed are older players who are more established. So it seems to me that it's okay when the newbies are getting killed, just chastize them for whining and tell them to get better, but when it's a more senior player, now that's just unacceptable and has to be griefing.

Now that I've got flames in everyone's eyes, let me say that I personally have never seen Elystole not support his kills with RP, either before, after, or both. If it is after, then he always explains exactly why it was that he killed the person, so it still isn't just "Oh, Corvite, pew pew!" And honestly, even if he were just killing people because they were Corvites, I honestly want to know how that in and of itself isn't justifiable RP. Corvus has attacked Shadgard numerous times. There is evidence everywhere of that. The Outriders are simply very impassioned citizens of Shadgard whi have taken it upon themselves to deliver justice outside of the conventional laws. Hell, you could even call them evil themselves, since their whole thing is taking the law into their own hands, and that always works well. But the point is, if your home town had been attacked numerous times by a group of people who, by reputation, are lawless, murderous, and think themselves above the law, aren't you going to be extremely wary of them at best? If you're not one for confrontation, you'd probably cry for help and run off if you saw someone from that group. If you're confrontational, you'll either prepare to defend yourself at the slightest hint of attack, or just straight up take care of them before they can take care of you.

Now, I'm not saying someone should play a character that kills Corvites just because, hey, Corvites; that would be considered griefing because, and here's the kicker, while that is legitimate RP, it does not facilitate the kind of RP we want on CLOK. It's confrontational RP that results in people getting killed all the time, and it really sucks for those people. So, justified by RP? Totally. Acceptable? Absolutely not.

Now you're probably confused. I likely did an about-face from where you thought I was headed. Well, that's because I want to point out that both parties are in the wrong here. Elystole is not griefing, not in the slightest. He always has reasons when he kills someone, and he only does it once before you have to make him do it again. For that reason, everyone who is whining really needs to think about what their characters may have done to have Elystole want to kill them. If you can't come up with anything, either email the GMs and let them look into it, or contact Ely himself. Or hell, contact me, I'll play mediator, I don't mind.

That being said, I can understand the frustration of being killed with minimal or no RP leading to it at that exact moment. No one wants to be walking around, minding their own business, and suddenly they're dead because they ran into someone who wanted them dead. So Ely, I want to suggest that perhaps you should stop with the killing people on sight. Is it justified? Yes. Is it acceptable? I would have said yes before now, but now I have to say no, because it affects people's enjoyment of the game, and I have to say that while it isn't technically griefing, it is detrimental to the game. Perhaps give a warning, or read your personal charges to them before pulling the trigger. Will this reduce how many kills you get? Certainly. Will it give people the chance to buff themselves, or run away? It sure will. But you know, I think that's how proper, respectful RP should be. You should give the other person the opportunity to react, or make it a fair fight.

So there, I've put in my two cents. People who are getting killed by Elystole, he has perfectly justifiable and acceptable reasons to do so. Elystole, while this is true, you may want to change your tactics so people aren't getting their experiences ruined and leaving CLOK indefinitely. Personally I wouldn't care how right or wrong I thought I was, if my RP or my actions were driving people away from CLOK, I'd tweak it so that didn't happen.

Anyway, I really hope the characters that have left will come back and play again. We're all family here on CLOK, and like in a real family, problems are rarely solved by stomping away and locking the door behind you. I hope you all have a pleasant day.

[Jaster]

I think the real problem here is assumption. :D

[Lysse]

But you know, I would like to point something out: No one complained this much about Acarin, and he had less RP than Elystole sometimes, and far less actual readons besides "Bwahaha, I'm evil." The main differencr I see? This time, the people getting killed are older players who are more established. So it seems to me that it's okay when the newbies are getting killed, just chastize them for whining and tell them to get better, but when it's a more senior player, now that's just unacceptable and has to be griefing.

That's pretty false. There were definitely people complaining about Acarin.