Wonky curve of skills.

[Shou]

Now, uh, I'm aware that these are probably in place for reasons, and I remember reading a couple of things that said that training dummies aren't coming back but...

As a new player who's spent a lot of time in the low ends of the skill spectrum and has got a character up to a level I'd think of as passable (with guild basic training to assist that), I'm confused as to why there's such a lot of wonky work to get the skills needed to be moderately decent in training your skills.

For example, any of the combat skills when you're new require you to first be leveling dodge, because not being hit or full armour is the only way to possibly work on a combat skill.
If you are hit, you end up spending lots of money on bandages to heal back up to full health, and this in itself is a skill to grind up to the point where they stay on for a half-decent amount of time. And you have to do this because in order to heal any wound beyond light wounds requires you to grind up another skill to be able to make poultices.
The general end is that in order to kill one monster and get maybe .5 in a combat skill (or multiple, if you're working on something that has multiple skills at once) you get in a fight for about two minutes, then spend about ten-fifteen bandaging slowly back to full health, whereas people who have got to a good level of skill, and I don't actually know where that is on the number level, can fight through multiple enemies of this same level, and even though they are getting less per creature, the overall rate is faster.

Now, as much as this might be read in this tone, I'm trying not to whine, and instead be constructive.
I don't really have a lot of free time due to work. Even focusing on just one character, things for me are slow, and it seems odd that the difficulty curve for getting skills is at the beginning, whereas at the mid to higher end it's just a matter of doing the skill lots and lots, at the beginning it seems like there's constant roadblocks just getting to be able to work on that skill you want.

Thank you for reading through this, and I hope this is taken in the spirit it was intended.

[Lun]

The skill training curve is definitely a tough one. Because at the end of the day, a larger roll means a larger pool for both you and the enemy, the difficulty increases at a higher level, as well. Higher skilled players can't actually gain anything from fighting lower roll enemies, so... for example, if I roll 1000 against a 100 carrier, I get nothing out of the exchange.

Certainly, higher level players may visit a location and massacre carriers for a time, but it's usually for another side purpose as you've mentioned.

Bandaging: First Aid allows bandages to stay on longer, and thusly heal more. It's a skill you need to grind, but it's also one of the simplest. I suggest carrying 100+ bandages with you so you can bandage the second you get scrapes.

Herbalism: This one's the catcher. You need to forage for all the herbs you need or purchase them to make the poultices, and at lower levels you can fail making the poultices. This is probably the most time consuming one, as the poultices you make can rapidly heal scrapes and light wounds with ease. For reference the Infirmary uses the longest lasting and slowest poultices for healing, so Herbalism is no joke!

I don't know many people who can fight massive amounts of enemies of equal skill at higher levels. (If you mean like 600 vs 600). For example I spent today hunting bears, but I need to take a break every other bear or they'd murder my face off.

I do agree that sometimes, bandaging and the like can feel like it takes forever. I suggest picking up woodworking or something you can do while you wait off your healing. Infirmary bandages won't fall off with movement, so feel free to do whatever during that time to make it productive!

[Shou]

I don't know many people who can fight massive amounts of enemies of equal skill at higher levels. (If you mean like 600 vs 600).

From what I've seen, an equal fight is really a one match and then retreat deal. The issue is that someone with, say 400 dodge versus the 100ish carriers may not be levelling dodge, or if so, very slowly, but with the combat skill they're working on from scratch, that levels absolutely fine, and they can't be hit nearly as much.

Then you have the strange outlier situations like wandering Canim, which admittedly with the change is less of an issue, in that your melee vs theirs determines if you can flee, their dodge versus your attack if you can hit, and their perception versus your stealth to hide. If you can't do any of those? Canim appear and oh, hi, one way ticket to death.

Slightly related, some skills seem to level up really slowly, to the point where you might as well not bother without basic training boosts. Perception and stealth rely, I think, on passing the check to level the skill, which means if you don't have any, it's a real task to get some.

I suggest picking up woodworking or something you can do while you wait off your healing. Infirmary bandages won't fall off with movement, so feel free to do whatever during that time to make it productive!

While this sounds like a great idea, I don't think that there are too many things to do while healing that are mobile. I... Think that might be one of the few, with possibly pottery. Also, trees, gaia, yetis, pain. C:

I dunno, I get the feeling that others might not feel this way, but it just seems like a roadblock for new players. That, and the lowest level enemies I know are the Caravan infested, and even then Bloated acid damage is a large number and hard to dodge, and they're all higher level than a flat-new player.

[Rias]

Just an FYI, we're working on areas to practice combat that aren't quite so deadly and don't require so much downtime.

[Shou]

Thank you.

[Rias]

A little more info on the above:

If you're fighting against humanoids with gear in good repair, or significantly dangerous critters like bears, cougars, wolves, etc.: we WANT it to be dangerous. You should be worried that you could take a bad hit at any moment and need to run away - combat in these situations should be risky and visceral. I mean, you're fighting people with serious tools of war, and bears. If you weren't Undying, I'd say you were insane, going to these places just to practice. (Of course it's not any of your fault at the moment, since that's what we as the staff have currently provided)

What we're working on: Areas where the critters are either less dangerous (i.e their claws, teeth, and muscles aren't quite so huge) and, in the case of humanoids (infested, nethrim, and non-), they wield gear in bad repair that therefore does far less damage when they do hit. Some existing areas will likely be updated to fit these criteria in the case of humanoids. Lots of infested that use weapons will likely be re-outfitted with gear in bad states of repair to make them not quite so deadly.

So when you want to just go out and practice to train up your skills, you'll go to these places where the critters have attacks that aren't so powerful and crippling. When you want to prove yourselves or something, or get those expensive/rare creature skins and high-quality loot drops, or when we as staff want to send you into real peril for events or missions or whatnot, we'll send you to the places with the big, powerful beasts and the humans wielding well-maintained gear that can kill you just as well as yours can kill them.

It won't be a black and white split of course, but hopefully this gets across kind of what we're shooting for, and that people can look forward to more areas that aren't quite so deadly (though will likely be less materially rewarding).

[Shou]

While you're around, and slightly less related to the actual opening topic, why is it that only certain uses of skills actually raise them? For example, magic is by cast only, never by the assistive damage on an attack, even at a lower rate. Is it purely to make them harder to level, or something else?

[Rias]

Magical "flares" on melee attacks don't require any sort of magic-related challenge. No challenge, no gain.

[Guardas]

They seem to have their own version of "challenge" although it's more an energy related one. If someone were interested in using flare based attacks right now it requires training both a physical and a magical skill separately.

Maybe the flare damages could have a hit roll on it with a bit of a damage boost to semi-compensate and allow some skill gain?

[Lun]

that wouldn't solve the issue, Guardo. Flares are simply there to augment existing damage, in my opinion. Adding a roll to it would just be confusing, since you're already striking the enemy. Why would we need to roll for the magic happening?

If you wanted flare based attacks, you would simply just cast. Same effect as the flare, no fancy melee skill attached. I get where you're coming from, though.

[Rias]

There's no skill check whatsoever for flares. It's a flat random roll, so it doesn't require any magic skill beyond that initial point that allows you to channel in the first place.

[Guardas]

Well, instead of the hit causing a roll for the flare, maybe the actual chance for a flare could be a roll based on magic (probably weighted somehow to help with outliers). Flares as they are right now just...aren't that great and anyone wishing to use them has to train essentially double (still unsure if higher magic skill increases flare damage). And they suck up a lot of energy on top of it.

[Lysse]

Well, instead of the hit causing a roll for the flare, maybe the actual chance for a flare could be a roll based on magic (probably weighted somehow to help with outliers). Flares as they are right now just...aren't that great and anyone wishing to use them has to train essentially double (still unsure if higher magic skill increases flare damage). And they suck up a lot of energy on top of it.

Actually, if you want to utilize flares in combat, you don't have to train the associated magic skill at all beyond '1', as far as I'm aware. And Aeromancy flares are ridiculously useful, with the right weapon. So are hydromancy flares, if memory serves.

[Rias]

Yeah, no magic skill is used at any time for any reason with flares. They simply have a flat chance of occurring if you're channeling. No damage variance, no frequency variance. You don't need any skill beyond 1 to get maximum use out of flares.

P.S. Flares will likely be adjusted to not be over-uber with attacks that strike a bajillion times. This has been on the to-do list for a long time, but very few people actually utilize flares so it hasn't been priority. They'll probably end up having the maximum number of strikes considered somehow to try and balance it out a bit.