the death of PvP conflict interaction in the Lost Lands

[Kent]

I have been thinking about what happened about a week ago during an RP interaction with another player. The situation was, in summary, another character was talking trash to Kent on ESP and Kent told him he was due for the beating his parent's should have given him.

Shortly after, Kent saw this character in person in Mistral Lake at town center. The other character taunted Kent disrespectfully in person, and Kent told him he was going to take him to the woodshed to give him his beating.

The other character refused to go and told Kent, I quote, "Beat me here". I would have dragged him by the ear to the woodshed for his whoopin', but that mechanic was denied me. Kent found a stick in the crate and proceeded to give the lad a drubbing, upon which he immediately called out for the warden who came along (GM controlled NPC) and broke things up, and told us to go our separate ways, so far so good. Kent walked away and went about his business in Mistral Lake and left.

However, later when Kent later entered Mistral Lake, he was arrested, fined, and jailed for hooliganism, without a trial under the hateable justice and reputation system of CLOK. I call it this because no player knows where he stands in reputation (therefore he cannot bug it if something goes wrong), cannot appeal his justice and rep penalty IC (he can go through the motions but the guilty verdict will be upheld in the end - this I know through experience), and when the town decides to permanently ban that character, it robs him of the entirety of his possessions on his person and in his vault. (What a town does to you when it decides to permanently ban you is to impose a huge fine on you and put all your equipment in it's town vault. When you raise sufficient funds to cover the fine, to your dismay you learn that the stated fine is a only a sham and that the town has no intention of permitting you to pay the fine to release your belongings.) I am also told the disturbing anecdote of a character who never did anything wrong within Mistral Lake, to have been permanently banned from that city for a murder he did outside it's boundaries.


Kent has never been in trouble with the law before and is known for his benevolence. Kent did not maim or kill that other player, he merely gave him the beating he literally asked for. I consider the environmental role-play of the town to side with the smart-mouthed disrespectful young punk and jailing a reputable senior-citizen for delivering a well-deserved mild beating to be far too 20st century North America to be worthy of the society of CLOK. For frontier societies in dangerous times, such disrespect to elders would not be tolerated, and in fact, probably half the world today in 2014 would not tolerate it. A complaint to by the young punk would likely result in a second beating by town authorities to ensure he learned to watch his mouth. As a character who has himself been punished for smart talk by others, even attacked and killed in Shadgard by River (because he said things she decided he should be physically punished for) with no corresponding justice to that which fell on Kent, I have a sickening suspicion, that if a GM controlled senior NPC in a town was smart-mouthed by a young punk, it would be the young punk who would both get the beating and do the jail time, and the GM NPC would be exonerated.

What begs the question also, is that the other player who talked trash to Kent and dared Kent to beat him there in town, only calling for the assistance of the warden after the blow was stuck, was he using a deceitful form of metagaming where he knew that the justice system of Mistral Lake would automatically favor him and penalize Kent? Players don't feel the fear nor the pain of the blows that fall on their character's back as they do in real life, nor can such pain change their attitude as it can in real life. (Ask a real life police officer what a baton is for.) So for a player to brazenly taunt and dare a trained warrior to beat him, to continue brazen and daring when the warrior brandishes a stick and approaches him, only to squeal for the warden after his wish of a beating is granted, is RP at it's worse and suspected metagaming of an arbitrary system.

Be that as it may or may not be, the conclusion of the matter is that PvP role-play of a frontier land in dangerous times is extinguished (for me at least), and, under the threat of an inscrutable justice/reputation system, is consequently replaced by a 21st century North American role-play response of "just ignore them and walk away".

[Skah]

that mechanic was denied me.

hateable justice and reputation system

robs him

only a sham

disturbing anecdote

sickening suspicion

a deceitful form of metagaming

RP at it's worse and suspected metagaming of an arbitrary system.

inscrutable justice/reputation system.

This post might set some kind of record.

[Zoiya]

Kent, please. Just stop.

Edited to add : If you want to rampage, beat and murder and have no consequence, do it outside of a town and don't brag on esp. Gee. That's pretty easy!

[Jaster]

I can agree with him on one thing. If the warden broke them up and told them to go their separate ways without arresting him right then, he shouldn't have been arrested later (if that's what happened).

Perhaps this is just a product of the intricacies of the justice system.

I wouldn't call it bad roleplay for a punk, who is probably all talk anyway, to squeal once he gets a real beating. Haven't you ever been behind the bleachers at a highschool football game? :) Anyway, I highly doubt the involvement of any metagaming on the other person's part. Coming from a career criminal (in CLOK), the justice system is hard to navigate most of the time, so I don't see someone successfully manipulating it for the purpose of specifically causing you trouble.

[Araus]

There's so, sooo much wrong with this. There's so much I want to say, but I have a feeling it'll just stoke the flames- so I'll let the GMs handle this.

I will say though, you've really made my morning, Kent.

[merin]

All I'm gonna say is Kent's a bad boy, now. Will it stop at hooliganism? or was that a gateway crime!

In all seriousness, though, you were arrested for beating someone. sure you couldn't drag him off and he asked for a beating but you did deliver it. Big deal. You were arrested and paid the fine. now you can pull the "I've been in jail, ladies," and be right. Take it in stride -- it's all good fun. I mean, the young punk got his ass whipped. If it were me in your place, I'd still consider that a win for me.

[Zoiya]

Now that I'm fully awake..

I'm not going to speak for all the GM's because it's not my place and I hate it when people do that to me. We encourage interaction within the game and that includes CvC. Sometimes there are things that you need to say that you can't say in words and need to use action for. If you do it in a town or hamlet, I think it is reasonable to expect that you're going to find yourself in some sort of trouble.

Read the rules, follow them. Don't pick on someone just because you know you can beat them and then do it over and over and we won't have any trouble. It's really *that* simple. If you don't want to get in trouble with the law and find yourself facing a fine or jail time? Use common sense when you are doing shady or rabble rousing activities in town. That isn't hard.

Now everyone go out there and pick a fight, keep it clean.

Also, Kent if you have any further issues that you find yourself feeling this strongly about communicate with one of us via email as well. We'll be happy to sit down with you and discuss.

[blindndangerous]

I'm with Maron on this one.

[Rias]

Here are are a few things to keep in mind:

- While you clearly have a strong idea as to how you wish your character to be viewed by others, keep in mind that other players and GMs alike are well within their right to form their own opinions about him. There are certainly a lot of opinions about Kent: Some fall in line with how you wish him to be viewed, some don't. I can't think of anyone who isn't in the same boat that way - this is a multiplayer game, and people are different. They'll form their opinions for their own reasons in their own ways. You can't really complain that people don't see your character the way you want them to, because you can't control how other people think and react to how you present your character.
- This is the Lost Lands. Their system of law and judgment isn't required to be in line with any real-world analogues. The different towns may well deal with similar situations in different ways. They may not be to your liking or seem "right" or "fair" to you. We do want them to believable, however, so please continue to give feedback about the system. It's still far from where I'd like it to be. In this case, while I'm not the Mistral Lake guru, I find it perfectly believable that beating someone with a stick in the middle of town square for "talking trash" would be frowned upon by the local peacekeepers and possibly elicit a fine and time-out. Because really, that's what the "jail" sentences are: A ten-minute time-out. You're not a hardened criminal who's done considerable hard time in the slammer; you've essentially been sent to the corner for ten minutes to think about what you've done and understand that what you did was not acceptable within the town of Mistral Lake.
- Don't assume that others have gotten away with troublemaking or unlawful behavior just because you haven't heard about the consequences they may have suffered. I think it's safe to say that many people don't publicly broadcast when they've received punishments or any other embarrassing/harmful consequences to their actions. I know it's not the type of thing I would go around shouting from the rooftops about myself. On the other hand, some people do get away with causing trouble without any consequences sometimes. It just depends on the circumstances.
- Your reputation is important in CLOK. The town communities are small and rumors travel fast. There isn't any unifying nation-wide law system that says a town is required to host someone just because that person hasn't committed any of their widely-rumored atrocities within city limits. If someone is considered to be too great a risk to allow into a town, that town's leadership is free to tell their lawmen, guards, peacekeepers, etc.: "Don't let this person into town anymore." It may be for the sake of safety, it may be for political reasons, it may be based on unfounded rumors and false information. Your character's part is then to decide how to react to what has happened. There is no overpowering desire for global tolerance and second chances in the Lost Lands - the people tend to be a wary, unforgiving, paranoid bunch.

[Rias]

And just a point on the concept of rumors and such regarding someone's reputation: We by and large leave this type of thing up to the players. We prefer not to start false rumors about anyone as GMs, but if player characters bring things to the attention of NPCs, expect said NPCs to react accordingly based on the information they've received and how well they trust the person/people delivering that information.

[Acarin]

I'd just like to say that while I do not agree with him in this case, to some extent I understand Kent's frustration. The permanence of some of the consequences for certain behaviors, to me, goes above and beyond what is reasonable for a game. We're here to enjoy, and while it's fine to dish out justice when necessary, I often feel that permanent penalties (the unforgiving nature of the Lost Lands) detract from the game considerably and serve to frustrate players and can come across as a bit harsh. That's just my opinion from my experiences as Acarin and his ban from certain cities (whether he committed crimes in those cities or not). Permanent banning from a town based on something that had nothing to do with the town has happened and seems a bit unreasonable. I'm not asking for anything to change, but from a player's perspective it can come across as a bit malicious and be very demotivating (this is why I no longer play as Acarin). I'm sure Kent's just upset at the prospect of this sort of treatment.