Couple of my thoughts.

[Lavi]

I like the idea of a mentor system, but I don't think it's a good idea mechanically speaking or for the purposes of initiation. When I was waiting to become a Templar I naturally tried to approach church characters, while I think in a way it would be nice to have player assisted initiations, it'd only take one person going, "hey your my friend, I'll try and convince person B, to help initiate you," for no reason than they like a person out of character to ruin the integrity of the guild. I like the guidelines and I think it's a difficult challenge. The Acolyte idea is a good thought. but I would hate for a person to get frustrated because they got into the acolyte phase and never got anywhere. it would give a person to bug the staff and go, "I've been an acolyte for X amount of time, why can I not progress." it puts us in the same position with more mechanics.

That being said I've supported the current monk and Templar hopefuls for two reasons that make me bias on my part. 1. I miss the church having a group of RP focused individuals who have a focus. When I started playing Clok I found it to be the thing that made the church look so great. I loved the lore behind it, but with people complaining that the church is too "good" or restrictive, the fell away from that. 2. I think the people I've supported personally would be a good fit. That being said I know just about every monk or Templar hopeful in some way or another so this also makes my opinion bias which is why I wouldn't want to be the one picking people.

Also as for the non answer thing. I am glad it was addressed. that being said, I played Lavi for almost 5 months before I got a straight answer as to whether I got in or not. I was extremely frustrated at the time, and the church was actually closed the day after I applied. I wined and complained, struggled, and got really annoyed when I thought I was doing a very good job at being compassionate, honorable, respectful, etc. So I really understand how the monk and Templar hopefuls feel. But to be honest, the first month of playing that character, I knew I just wanted the abilities. And so I pushed, and pushed, and pushed for it. Then when a month went by, I got tired of waiting, I had a hard time being helpful to others, I had a hard time being compassionate, and I was annoyed that I’d go to help with church stuff and wasn’t a part of the church. I got made fun of—yes made fun of—on a daily basis for being the, “half Templar,” and Lavi became a pain and a labor to play. At that point I finally broke down and bugging staff. I would write a letter In character, or a message on the BBS to Rias saying why the heck am I not getting in. I was told the church is still closed, but keep playing and maybe you’ll find yourself in the guild. So then, my attitude changed to stubbornness. I was going to get into the guild whether I liked it or not.
By this time month two went by, and I started to really pay attention to why the lore of thaumaturgy is so important. The abilities church members have, especially templar, make them by far the most long lasting, and powerful type of character. It makes them very difficult to kill, because they can either out last other characters, burn them alive if they are tainted, or kill them outright. The OOC check for a Thaumaturgy wielder, is that Thaumaturgy is to be used to protect and guard. To heal and comfort. It can’t be used against players without consequence, even if that other player is trying to kill you. From an IC perspective Light is supposed to help not harm.
It took me that really long time to grasp that concept fully. From that point I started embracing that concept of helping others, Throwing myself at any chance to do so. As time went on I figured out I really liked it.I was for all intensive purposes a Templar without Thaumaturgy. I played a character who had no abilities and still loved to help. Eventually I stopped bringing it up in character, even though I was frustrated. I still was picked on a little in skype chats, but even that died down. By the end of that 4 month time period I didn’t much care whether I was in or not. I liked Lavi for Lavi. He is a character I appreciate because it proves to me I can strive to accomplishthings, I have the capability of being compassionate in the way the church strives to be, and even though I have 13, YES 13, alts, I love the true feeling of helping, the idea of the concepts of trying to help characters improve their skills, protecting them from things if they need. I think of it as being an IC mentor for players so they can grow and be able to do things on their own eventually.

I write all this to say, that it is doable, it’s not always fun, but I think the monk and Templar hopefuls will grow. I know I did, and I completely understand how much work is put in to the character.

[Sneaky]

I just remembered a thought I had before after reading elystole's post.
I mentioned it over chat, but I completely forgot.
I remembered a mud where skill gains came about from rping sparring matches and things of that nature, sept in that game, they were dice, rather than skills. Anyway, before someone recognizes tae mud I'm talking about and says, that mud sucked! we shouldn't do it because that mud sucked! etc etc. Step back and look at the mechanic, clok is an rp enforced mud, so then it should be possible to rp training, and gleen some benefit from it, as rping it, requires much more effort than standing in a room waiting for stuff to walk in and typing battle. The way the system would work is that you would type in a command like, start training or something, then it'll start logging all commands and text that is sent to you. After you're done with your rp training, maybe you're roleplaying sparring, or chopping down trees, forging weapons and armor, things like that, then you would type stop training, then submit skill name, I.E. submit logging. it would be sent to the gm that over sees that particular skill and reviewed by them at the end of the week, your skill points rewarded based on the performance and thuroughness of it. for example, someone who actually researches how to forge metal would probably gain more skill points if he used that information in his log versus the person who just does emote hammers away at his heated bar of steel. people could still grind away whatever they wanted of course, but this opens up another way of getting skill points and encourages rp, could even pull other people in on it, having a tutor show you how to effectively dodge out of the way, or how to throw knives, how to mine correctly, the possibilities are endless. there'd probably have to be a limit to how many someone can submit, but that sort of thing as well as how many skill gains can be up to the gm's of course.

[Gad]

At the beginning of the year there were 20-30 people consistently playing during the weekdays. I once saw 33 as a high.

I understand, GMs, you have spent and donated a lot of your time and money to make CLOK what it is today. You have invested in CLOK, so, I am going to invest in you. I see huge potential for CLOK to grow its player base. I have already hinted as how you can do that. GMs NOT being involved or responding is a big reason people have left or played less. Be involved with your players and their progression in abilities, skill, and RP. I am not talking about and event every few months or the players constantly coming to you with ideas. I am talking about you looking into what that player is doing daily and following them to see what they are involved with and basing events around what they are doing with world events you are planning. An example already been done: An udemi is called in because of increased infested activity in an area. The GM plays the guild leadership and informs the udemi to gather help. The udemi goes out and quietly gathers a force to deal with the infested. The GM with the group goes and takes out the threat. Get involved. Break up players routines.

Do this constantly with the different players you are assigned to. I mean that within reason. Once a week per player who is in your group. Sometimes you may have to do this two or three times a week with a player. Your coding does not take precedence over my game play. As GMs you need to walk among us. If you have been able to get me involved in an event during the week, GREAT! Spend a bit of time to check in on us daily and then go back to content coding! When I mean “spend time” I mean watch what we are doing, maybe a quick visit with the guild leader, and then go back to coding! Your coding content is secondary to our game play (I understand that bugs need to be fixed but that is up to you as a group of GMs how to manage time for that. Perhaps those who fix bugs only have 2-3 players and the other take on more players). Some say they don’t like all the events. That’s fine. Don’t be involved with all of them. The GM assigned to you will have to be attentive to your style of game-play and involve you accordingly. Maybe, a solo event or a specific task with respect to your guild with extra bonus points, loot, or training.

Now, I understand that some reading this may need to use the restroom at this moment. I suggest eating an apple and drinking some Gatorade to have something in the stomach and maintaining your electrolytes.

Walk among us as GMPC’s (guild and event leaders, etc.). I bet you will surprise yourselves. I bet the players will surprise you. I bet you would maintain your player base.

Challenge still stands: 50 players consistently online by March 31st, 2015 and I will donate $2000.00 to CLOK. If you had 30 players playing at one time – you can reach 50. As I said, I WANT you to succeed.

Addendum to my post: Here is another reason GMs are to be involved with what we are doing daily. Once upon a time, Gad lost his light for 8 months. I sent emails to many GMs to give RP ideas about recovering his light, IC letters sent to guild leaders to create events, and tried to get RP going in-game to work on getting Gad’s light back. You know what happened? I got ZERO response from any GM for 8 months. That is pretty crappy treatment. That is why, if you affect my game play in such a manner, you are now my personal GM to help RP solutions and to check how I am doing. If you are going to affect players game play in such a manner you need to be involved with what they are doing. Hence, your coding content does not take precedence over my game play.

[Zoiya]

I wish that we, with our families, jobs and other responsibilities could do this, but the reality of the situation is that we can't hold your hand or constantly direct you. You guys have to do some of this yourselves. We are short handed and not able to constantly keep an eye on you - give you RP all the time - and be super involved and keep the game and our lives running. It's just not possible.

[Gad]

Let me say this. All of you GMs who are sitting there right now upset -- change your attitude. We as players are giving you something valuable that the business world pay a lot of money for: customers who give a sh*t. Many of us are telling you what we are frustrated with about your product. In the real world we would be gone. That is why I believe those of us TRYING to tell you what is going on -- you need to pay attention.

Zoiya, I am not asking you to take a break from your families to log onto CLOK. Life takes precedence over my game play. But, yes, when you are logged on as a GM, I am playing your game and you need to be involved. Players will always RP. We already do. If you are going to sit there and code content while I am trying to contact someone about RP then that is your fault and failure. Yes, I do expect you to stop coding. Yes, I do expect a response when I send in a report to meet with a guild leader right then. Yes, I expect a response to my IC letters even if it is a resounding ‘NO.’ When you are logged onto CLOK, yes, I do expect you to be super involved. If there is an emergency that needs to be taken care of in game or in real life I understand that. Go take care of it. But, as GMs I expect you to be super involved. So, don’t marginalize what I am telling you by saying that I am asking you to hold our hands. I am asking you to play the game with us. I play your game. YOU come to me with the value to play your game. You are not short handed because you have 5-10 players consistently playing. That is an excuse. Train your world builders to RP with players. Be creative in how you do that. It is possible and I expect you to expand your creative view of this game. I expect that from all of you GMs.

[Lavi]

All I can say is Gad you are beyond rude. wining like a child isn't going to help you, being a douche isn't going to help you in fact this, FROM A PLAYER, is why I stopped playing. you attitude on chat when it was up was annoying bashing the staff because you don't like something like all the players agree f=with you is annoying. you being a patronizing jerk is annoying. you don't speak for me, THE PLAYER, you've made your point. but don't be rude. And don't talk like you speak for me or anyone else.

[merin]

I believe, Lavi, that your post was equally, if not more so, as rude. while I will admit Gad could have put his words maybe in a more conversation friendly tone, calling someone a douche, stating they wine and complain, etcertera, is not only equally, if not more, disrespectful, but it illistrates an inability to keep it civil.

Yes. Rias asked for critisism. No, maybe things wern't said as politely as they should have been, but your post was not only rude but contributed nothing of value to the topic. So, as someone who actually cares about the conversation and the outcome it could have, can we please, for all that is holey, be polite and respectful to one another? Please?

[Lavi]

I challenge you then, where in the last four posts from Gad, where he has told me and everyone else to put on our big boy pants, was civility. I've been having to slog through this on this board post for the last day. if we are going to come up with a solution than fine, acting as if we're all children because he's unhappy is ridiculous. i'm fed up with it. If you don't like what I said than fine, but I refuse to be talked down to and frankly he's done nothing but do so. Civility was lost a long time ago.

[merin]

I will be responding to Gad's posts. You can bet on that. As to being slandered, i'll debate with you about it, however, this isn't the time or the place for it. I really believe that.

[merin]

All right. *rubs hands together*. Get ready for a long one!

First, people have been leaving because of changes, well, that’s the nature of things. They may not like them, and as Rias posted earlier, now is the time to express which changes have caused them to leave. To my recollection, the only people have posted here are the players themselves who are still playing. If they have nothing to add, then, they don’t. Nothing can be done about that. As for the people that are expressing their thoughts, that’s great. I believe that we can all work together to accommodate and settle things. The GMs have more power over the game world. They’re the ones that put together the sandbox, we just play in it. Having said that however, we are able and have from what I’ve seen – and been told – have the ability to change things, too. For those unhappy with the changes, then, express them. We players and GMs alike can’t help them if they’re not going to step out and express themselves.

Gad stated he works in an environment that his hostile. What does that have to do with anything? You’re clearly an adult, and should have the ability to separate your life from your game. I’m a victim of things coming through at times, too, but it is up to me to make sure that doesn’t happen.

The zero responses to RP events, well, I haven’t experienced this myself. If, however, people have, then yes I do feel that needs to be addressed. Right now, as soon as it happens? That’s unreasonable. Keep in mind that there are GMs, not just GM, that make things happen. If I was Gaming, I would run the response by my fellow staff and make sure that what is put back out to the player fits – not only in the current situation, but is constant within the game world, and within the character’s actions that is in response. I don’t know, but maybe there is more than one GM who is controlling more than one person. Also, the whole real life thing gets in the way.

On the other side of that, the GMs who are delegated to respond to our inquiries are working, not only on that front, but to balance out the game, bring forth new content to keep us interested, motivated, and happy with the environment. Furthermore, it is them who started it, thus, it is mostly their vision – their sandbox that we play in. Having said that, they have every right to tweak things and make them the way they wish to be. Obviously if something is not working for the players, we should be listened to – without us, the sandbox would stagnate and become just a pile of sand – however, we’re not the game masters here.

If you are unhappy, the GMs don’t have to bend backwards for you. They do have to take into account the player base as a whole, however, people are going to come and they’re going to go. I’m one of those people that haven’t had any reason to even express much disinterest – I was just curious about a couple of things and that’s how this all got started. That is no way dissatisfied with the game, just seeking clarification. As for my dissatisfaction that I had (the guild point thing for traders), I have expressed that in as constructive way as, at the time, I was able. Could I have expressed it better? Maybe, but I have done so. No one can be pleased all the time, and many can’t be pleased with any of the stuff here. Thank goodness there are hundreds of other games in the world to play – go try one of them. It’s a balance that is way hard to keep. If people are unhappy yet love the game, then, maybe we should stop bickering and give the people responsible for drastically changing the world some criticism and some suggestions rather than name-calling and calling everyone out.

What have the GMs been doing that hasn’t worked? I don’t see many reviews on mud connector, topmudsites, etcetera, either. Bringing players is not soul up to the gems. In fact, as a player, I would be more apt to try out a product – or a game for that matter – if I read or heard about it from a satisfied player, not the GMs. If a GM enforces it that’s one thing but if there are players who take the time out of their day to post reviews, spread it to social media, to sites that people go to to find entertainment, and write down why they should try clock, it would speak way more. So, if you’re unhappy with the people, get out there and bring more!

I have to commend Jordon because of his promotional post. That’s what we should be doing if we truly love the game, sharing it.
I too remember when players were flocking here like mad. It was freeing awesome. I want to be part of that again and do my part.

The GM getting involved to help deal with a threat issue. I disagree. They’re running the game, and if they want to get involved I’m sure most of them have player characters to do so. If they want to put on more events and increase response times between letters, I would support that. Back when the mining tunnel was being done, and as I was a new player, I felt involved (thanks, gad); however, I wrote a letter to the elemancer’s headmistress and never did get an answer. I feel that this is sort of disconcerting; however, I have to remember, too, that they’re probably getting inundated with such mail from people. The world exists with us in it, not the world revolves around us in a way of looking at it. I do think though that maybe more of an effort could be made. I don’t see the other side of this, though, perhaps I’m wrong. Things, after all, get heptic and things may fall through the cracks.

As to the GMs being attentive to us, I have no doubt they are. Yesterday I was privy to some GM interaction. I’ve received several role play awards on my monk hopeful, so, they do pay attention. If you want interaction, bust your behind to get it. I can attest that until I really put forth an effort, and took advantage of the opportunities prevented, have gotten some great scenes. Maybe instead of running to and fro and just healing and being on your way, make yourself available for more gatherings. I still hold that the evening with me, Lavi, Althea, Maric, and for a bit Lae, was one of the most fun I’ve had on Clock. I got two RPA’s that day, so, the GMs were aware of it. Guess what though? No GM came and interacted with us (that I noticed), although, they could have. I would guess that that situation brought them some joy, too, seeing their players interact and not just grind the hell out of the skills.

Secondly, we got kicked out of the church for being a bit loud and disruptive later that week, all again player driven. This weekend I learned the name of the blood god, got some interesting input, have been privy to a talk with the infested, and I’m not discounting the possibility for more. There was GM interaction in that one! Yes. Role-play can be a [witch] to get, but no, it’s not impossible. The gotta wanna’s, guys. If you want interaction, stop grinding and make it happen. Solo events are lame. I understand the need for them under some situations, but if everyone was getting their own gm. sponsored solo events what fun would that be for the rest of us?

If you didn’t get any response for eight months, Gad, that sucks and I agree that is kind of unfortunate and shouldn’t happen. That’s a lot lot lot of time.

[Jirato]

Let me say this. All of you GMs who are sitting there right now upset -- change your attitude. We as players are giving you something valuable that the business world pay a lot of money for: customers who give a sh*t. Many of us are telling you what we are frustrated with about your product. In the real world we would be gone. That is why I believe those of us TRYING to tell you what is going on -- you need to pay attention.

Uhh... Can't say I was really "sitting here upset", but reading this line... Now I am.

That's some pretty messed up logic man.

CLOK has been a great hobby over the past few years, I've enjoyed working on it, and I'm glad for all the people I've met and the joy I've been able to bring. Yeah, I know I'm not the most active when it comes to community involvement, and I'm sorry that there's folks out there who feel like their entitled to more personal involvement and haven't been getting it... But to say it like that? Your giving us valuable business? I don't know whether to just facepalm at this or laugh it off or what.

I do this because I enjoy it. Yes, it'll bring me more joy if you enjoy it as well, and I do want t do things that you, the players, will find joy in. But I've been breaking my back for CLOK. I've spent over $3400 on the CLOK server since November 2012, including during a layoff and period of unemployment. I work full time now just to continue paying for this server and my debts. I've seen maybe a total of around $120 in donation moneys come my way... But you know what? I don't really care, because it's my hobby and there's a lot more expensive hobbies out there that some people have. I actually feel guilty when Rias shares his donations with me, and frankly, if you did give him $2000, I'd probably tell him to keep it even though I'm the one financially supporting CLOK.

But to go and say something like that because we aren't catering to what YOU want with OUR time and money... That's just pathetic man.

edit: Expletive replaced. I should have cooled down a bit before I posted. Sorry. I just get a bit touchy when you start talking financials and throw value/stuff we should have had to pay for into it to try to reinforce your arguments, which I felt was totally unnecessary.

[Liani]

Ok. Ow, my face. I can't stop wincing. Would everyone just chill? Please? or something. I'm so mad I have to make a list. a freaking list people. Here we go.
1. Everyone at this point is being a jerk. Are you going to all act like kids or are you going to try to think before you post? You'd think tempers would be more easily controlled when you have to put things in boxes and then find the submit button. Where is the respect each of you feel like you deserve? It starts with yourself I think. This is a game guys. An incredibly well thought out, fun, amazing place to come and have fun. It's not so fun when the community is in an uproar and not getting along. Part of the reason i enjoy clok so much is because of the gms and the people. i'd hate to see any of this screw any of it up or change it in any negative way. I urge you all, including myself, to try to be civil. Nothing will come of, referring to Merin's earlier sandbox metaphor, throwing sand at each other when we could be helping to construct something out of it instead.
2. it does seem to take forever to get a response from an npc. I feel you on that. But they may be super busy. maybe they actually have a life. maybe they work or go to school or have kids or all of those things. I agree, yeah, it is their game, yeah we have the right to submit issues, complaints, what have you. i know I have a few, but I don't want to post them now because everyone is so pissed off i'll get either laughed at or yelled at so I'll just wait a few days and try to write something well thought out, constructive and not destructive. i want to help find solutions not be part of of or for that matter an entire problem. Back to the responses. I do get frustrated, very much so. i get especially frustrated when I write to an npc on a character where I feel it actually matters. Like if i don't I'll turn into a mushroom or something. Sorry if I shouldn't have said that but yeah. As a player I kind of have fears too. and eight months? That is a little ridiculous.
3. It's great to know someone's paying attention. When you're putting in all of this work to succeed, it's pretty sweet to know it isn't all going unnoticed. The past couple of nights have been really fun rp, good laughs and it's been encouraging to know that someone is paying attention to our silly, maybe good, maybe stupid ideas, but still good. Also, i might add that talking to players in character may be a way to get some new ideas flowing so it could be good for both sides. No. Please don't do it all the time. Then it'll get boring and I kind of like the pleasant or sometimes, in character unpleasant surprises. What I want to say to the players is that they make this a fun thing because they love it, they like to make us happy. Not everything they do will make us happy because we're all different. what may seem cool to me might suck royally for you. what I want to say to the gms is this. Don't stop having fun. I get that we can be a headache sometimes. Yeah I do. Just remember why you do it and enjoy yourself when you code, build, rp with us. That's all I have for now. I've been thinking of some other things but they aren't relevant to this thread after it's blown up so huge.

[Jaster]

I give props to all the GMs involved with CLOK, past and present. I would have said "F all of you [players]" by now and given up on the game. You have absolutely spoiled your player base, and most of us are too dense to see it. I've not seen a GM staff on another mud in a very long time that has cared half as much as any of you have about this game. I said recently in another post that there have been changes to the game that I didn't like, but that I somehow get over it every time. I have to say, you guys (and gals) are the only reason why. If you can get over the way we the players treat you (and this game) most of the time, I can get over some ultimately small change that I disagree with (usually only because it inconveniences me in some small way).

To players. I get it. We all feel entitled to a vision of CLOK that we all can agree with, but that is literally impossible for the GMs to create. I, for one, am completely content with experiencing a vision of the game created by hard working and dedicated GMs who care so much and feel so passionately about creating a game we can all enjoy, even though it is not possible. If we can't be content with that, then perhaps we don't deserve such a dedicated staff, much less access to a game that they are not obligated to provide to anyone. We are not customers here, we are GUESTS. We would all do well to remember this.

[Gad]

Jirato, it’s your player base. People are leaving. That is what I am addressing. 5-10 players 5 years ago, 5-10 players now. What is really messed up logic is me telling you that I will GIVE you money for your hobby because I remember when there were 20-30 people on at one time and I think if you can have 30 people you can have 50 people. I will pay one year for server maintenance and fees because I think this game is awesome and I think it is worth it. Yes, I am willing to financially help with costs of this game. Maybe you, Rias, and myself should have a private, quiet, chat about how I have helped CLOK in ways you don’t know. No, I will not give the donation now because you have to address player attrition, hence the reasonable goal of 50 players consistently online.

Lavi, I want to you try to understand what I am telling everyone. If you are upset because you think I am speaking for you…that’s fine. I won’t speak for you. I’ll speak for those who may be too timid to post here because people like you call them whining complainers when they are trying to tell you something important. I won’t start apologizing because my comments for some reason offend you. What I want you to do is go back and read everything I am posting and re-write your post with some intelligence behind it. Come back with something that will counter what I am saying so we can understand your frustrations. If you would like to meet on Skype to talk about your douchebag comment I will make time to do that.

I am not going to speak about mechanic changes that have occurred in the last year. Others are already doing that. Many are already expressing the frustrations of content made in changes that has affected their game play. I am talking about GM and PLAYER interaction. CLOK is a role-playing based game. As a player I am not in control of the environment. Since the GMs are they are the ones who drive the RP of this game. I am expected to role playing in this game and I expect the GMs to be very involved with that. I am not expecting GMs to remove themselves from family life to be on CLOK. When they are on I do expect an IC response to my IC letters. I do expect their involvement with the RP of this game. I understand there will be server maintenance, bugs to fix, and life problems and there are going to be emergencies.

Again, I am going to repeat what it is I am saying: the player base has not grown for five years. At the beginning of this year there were 20-30 people consistently playing with less content than there is now. Where are they now? Why are they not playing? Why could the GMs not maintain the player base? Yes, you do cater to us because we are your word of mouth. We’ll go out and tell people about what the GMs do for players in this game. We’ll search out the websites and post about CLOK on them. We are asked to vote for your game. One of my ideas to help increase the player base and maintain the current one is that GMs be very much involved with what we are doing as players. Since there are usually 5-10 people on at a time that is not a large work load for 3 GMs who have us divided up especially since their entire assigned group may not all be playing at one time. Now, this is an idea and meant for the GMs to start discussing how they are going to maintain their player base and increase the base. GMs, as the player base grows you look for candidates who will be able to help players as you do and thus split your time. Repeating from the a past post: Gad lost his light for 8 months. I sent emails to many GMs to give RP ideas about recovering his light, IC letters sent to guild leaders to create events, and tried to get RP going in-game to work on getting Gad’s light back. You know what happened? I got ZERO response from any GMs for 8 months. You are telling me as GMs you were justified in not telling me anything or helping me in any way? Yes, you cater to me if you are going to mess with my game play instead of not responding without guidance as to what you think I should be doing.

Let me put it this way. I think that, you, as a group of GMs and what you have created here, are better than a 5-10 player base. What you have here, with 50 people online, would destroy other MUDs. That’s what I have been telling you what I want. I want you to increase the player base. Do you not want to see 50 people online all the time on CLOK? What are you going to do to increase the player base? No need to answer that question here. Maybe, it’s not appropriate for players to know. Perhaps, I am screaming at the rain. If you don’t do something about players leaving and have 5-10 player base in 5 more years, with what you are capable of and the content you have, then it will just be disappointing.

[Rias]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and your feedback. While in some instances I'll stick to my notorious "Sorry, this is the way it is by design, and I don't think it needs to change", I think we'll also get a lot done to make everyone happier with this increased communication so we can weed out some of the things that may ultimately be a bad thing and are deserving of change.

Just a few words on presentation of feedback: It matters. I don't think we need to all be care bears and happy fun time friends - I appreciate candor and honest criticism rather than beating around the bush, and I like to think I have a decently thick skin. However, just know that if people are accused, they're more likely to go into defensive mode and not really address the core issue. If people are demonized, they'll focus on that instead of the underlying concern. I know it ruffled me a little to think that someone was imagining me (and the other GMs) frothing at the mouth, spluttering furiously, and, uh ... pooping? Vomiting? with indignation. I asked for feedback to address issues, not to respond with outrage. Although, I do appreciate the advice on electrolytes, as coincidentally, I have been suffering from an upset stomach today (I don't know if I'll ever be able to eat a chicken alfredo pizza again).

Oh, also one thing that hasn't been brought up - how are people feeling about the removal of in-game OOC and using IRC instead? I've really enjoyed communicating and even just chatting/BSing with the people in there.

Okay, now I'll get to some things that have been brought up so far in this thread (I'll get to the other one started by Elystole later, it's pretty late for me at this point and work calls in the morning).

Guild point penalties on removal of tasks: First off, the penalty amount has been tweaked down significantly. Secondly, I agree that as far as Artisans go, it's pretty crippling, so I'll be disabling the penalty for them until their tasks have been re-worked. In that vein, I'd appreciate feedback on tasks - which ones seem too hard (and are consistently turned down), which ones might be considered for removal or revisement, etc.

More regarding Church "hopefuls": It's been a joy to watch several of you. I think there are some potential keepers; I guess this is just a general word of encouragement to those who are trying and hoping.

Churchy mentoring/shadowing/etc. etc.: I don't know that I want an official system in per se, but assocaiting with existing members of said guilds is a good way to go about things. Using Lavi as an example, it seemed like he was always in there with them, doing his best to help out how he could, and showing that his goals and ideals were more or less in line with them. Not that hanging out with "churchies" is a guarantee to get you in, but it can be a good way to determine (for yourself as well as for we GMs) how you fit in with the organization.

GMs being constantly involved in player development: While some don't seem to believe this, it just really isn't feasible for our GM team to be constantly involved in every player's development. It takes more time and effort than you might know. We certainly enjoy being involved with the players - that's a greast source of joy for me in this game. Over the past several months I've had several enjoyable interactions with player characters by way of NPCs, and I hope the players have enjoyed it as much as I have. I will say that I would like to do this more often than I do now, and I will also admit that I have a tendency to bounce from place to place and occasionally leave loose ends. Oops. I'm really sorry about this - it's a fault of mine I'll certainly admit. I just get so excited about doing something else, something new, something shiny, that sometimes I can forget about the other things I was doing, or say "I'll just put that off for a little while." There's certainly plenty of room for improvement here in my case. It's good to know that it's something the players desire and enjoy. I just hope players will try to be understanding regarding how much time goes into the non-player-interaction aspects of running a MUD. Bugs, building, setting up new areas and systems in order to help players develop their characters and have opportunities to have a real influence in the world, etc. Or, at least, I hope players will be patient with my lack of competence at keeping up, I guess - I might just be really bad at it.

In a similar vein, I am pleased to allude to the fact that there will be a new GM on the team who will be primarily focusing on player interactions. Huzzah! More details on that in due time, though.

Offer of a big donation: It's nice to have some sort of reward as inspiration to do better, but one thing you have to understand is that none of the GMs do what we do with any expectation to make any money. We work on this primarily because we love the game, the world we've tried to build, and the people who come here to share the experience with us as players.

Getting bloody/gory: I'd like to lower the number of establishments that turn you down due to blood/gore. For some it certainly makes sense. Other than that aspect, do these statuses bother anyone? I always thought it was pretty cool that you could come back from a bit fight all covered in blood and gore!

Cold: What are some changes that we can make to this to make it better? I still want it to be a thing - I maintain that it's pretty ridonc if people go out in freezing weather wearing light clothing. It's one of those quirks about me, I guess - it bugs me when people do stuff like that, or go tromping across the wilderness barefoot, or walk around town naked.

Horses getting "repossessed": How do you mean? Like when they get sent back to the stables, or are people losing their horses forever somehow? We, or at least I, try hard to only send horses back to their stables if the player isn't logged in and has been gone for around 8+ hours.

Nutrition stuff: I'm not dead set on this aspect of the game as it's currently implemented, although I do like that it's a thing. Despite some not thinking of CLOK as a survival game, I actually do think of it that way. If you wander away from towns and off the roads in this essentially post-apocalyptic quarantine zone, you should be prepared to survive not only wandering monsters, but the dangers of being far away from civilization and convenience. I try hard to make CLOK so that combat capability isn't the only important thing. I'm particularly not sold on the recent re-implementation of nutrition-to-gain-energy that I think most people are upset over. I like the concept, because it just makes sense to me, and it gives food a little more purpose than just "eat it when you travel the wilderness".

I'd love to see more player run rp, but it's a pretty daunting task.

I can certainly agree there, but I did want to take this opportunity to tell our players how much we've enjoyed watching them roleplay in the last few months, and also to apologize that I sometimes forget to hand out RPAs after things disperse (sorry!). I'd also like to emphasize that we don't just like it when people do, I don't know, "really eloquent roleplay" or whatever. Maybe you don't do well with emotes and stick mostly to just talking. Maybe you never use the different speech tones and roleplay verbs. You know what? That's okay! We like it when we see people doing their best to roleplay their character. That doesn't always mean they're using big huge fancy emotes and a different tone on every single sentence they say. That's great when people do that, don't get me wrong - I'm not hating on the people that do! But I don't want others to shy away from trying to roleplay just because they don't think they're good at it.

like, could a gang of thieves rob the banks? maybe, if they were skilled enough or something, but would the gm's back it up? would it even be recognized? or will they just be left emoting in an empty room lol.

Yeah, there's no easy way to tell when GMs are watching and when they aren't, or whether they're on board with what you're about to attempt. A good way to try to get their attention is to use the THINK command and think about what you're about to try to do, and maybe see if you get some kind of response, but sadly we're not always around to get in on the antics. We -have- had a bank robbery before, though! I'm not really sure how to address this issue, though. Sometimes we're just not around, other times we might not think what the players are attempting to do should really be doable (like someone tried to fire up the Concord on their own once and take it for their own - I won't mention any sailors' names). If we're paying attention we might do a little room echo to indicate that what they're trying isn't going to work out.

Walk among us as GMPC’s (guild and event leaders, etc.). I bet you will surprise yourselves.

I've had a lot of fun doing this, and I'd love to do it more often. I will voice one thing we occasionally get frustrated with: When the NPCs get real active, sometimes players start just assuming the NPCs will always be there to take care of problems, help them with personal issues, etc. all the time. It's not a huge deal, but it can get frustrating at times when we want the player characters to be the ones doing all the heroic stuff. The NPCs are there for occasional supporting cast, but we don't want them constantly in the spotlight along with the players. We want you to be the heroes, the ones to come up with solutions, the ones to take action.

Gad having lost his light for 8 months, not getting any response or interaction during that time, etc.: Well, since you brought this up publicly, I feel I need to at least make a few points public myself.
A) You were taking a break from CLOK for the majority of those months. Nothing can happen if a character isn't around.
B) Gad's guild leaders, as well as associated guild leaders, met with him on multiple occasions to give advice, offer explanations, and even offered the possibility of switching guilds so that he could more effectively live his desired lifestyle (being in the thick of battle, leading invasions and war parties, etc). Gad's consistent response essentially boiled down to, "No, I disagree with what you've said. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing and I expect the problem will go away on its own eventually." He did eventually came up with some ideas of what to do to help himself (which you could have easily done without a big GM-run event supporting it) but that doesn't change the fact that he was refusing to acknowledge the core issues that his guildmaster brought up. There really wasn't anything anyone could do for Gad with that attitude, hence his issue lingered. Stubbornly waiting for a problem to go away on its own is not an effective method of resolution. Guild leaders made it clear Gad had to make some changes in order to solve the problem, but Gad refused to change and tried to come up with his own alternative means of resolution to get around making said changes. Therefore, I don't think this should be used as an example of GMs not caring about or getting back to/involved with players. If anything, I'd say this is an example that the game world is not going to bend and change to accommodate players if they're simply stubborn enough about wanting things their way and refusing to acknowledge the established rules and lore of the world and organizations they inhabit.

Yes, I do expect a response when I send in a report to meet with a guild leader right then.

The REPORT command is not a bell players can ring to get GMs to do what they want. It's used to report things to any/all online GMs - generally major bugs or other issues that warrant immediate resolution. With the small team we have and the lives all GMs maintain outside the game, I'm afraid it's futile to expect that the appropriate GM will be around whenever you want them and to immediately serve your wishes at your beck and call. We like interacting with players, we really do - but we're not always able to. A big part of why I decided to make a MUD instead of some online tabletop gaming system is so that players could play even when the GMs weren't around or were otherwise busy.

I have to commend Jordon because of his promotional post. That’s what we should be doing if we truly love the game, sharing it.

Players bringing in other players is always awesome! At this point the GMs have pretty much plumbed their lists of friends for people we can convince to come over. As was stated somewhere else in this thread, I think people are more likely to come check out CLOK due to player/peer recommendations than by some post by a GM saying "Hey, come play my game!"

Long response times from NPCs: I admit this is an issue. Part of is is that the correct GM is not always around at the right time, sometimes the GMs are already doing stuff with other people when the involved players show up, and, frankly - the NPCmail boxes are just overflowing with letters and stuff does fall through the cracks. And yes, sometimes I just forget. This is something I've been trying to figure out a system to better handle - something like a system of notes, alerts, and reminders to help me recall what all is going on with everyone, alerting me when they log in and have unresolved issues, and so on. Sorry for the frustration, I'm trying to make it better! It may not seem like a particularly difficult task with our small playerbase, but it really is a daunting task, at least for me, to keep track of and remember what's going on with every player character all the time. After all, we have a smaller playerbase, but boy do they enjoy playing millions of alts!

If I've missed a point that someone would really like a response on, please let me know. That was a lot of text to read through, and I probably missed a few things (or forgot about them as I wrote other things).

[merin]

That really sucks about the pizza – chicken alfredo is mighty tasty.

I really like irc as the new chat for a number of reasons. First, I don’t have to pay attention to it if I don’t want. When chat was around in the game and everyone got, well, chatty, it would spam me to high heaven. When I was in the middle of something in the game, I would choose that over chat most times, however, I would still be interested with the conversations there. Irc takes that away. My irc client logs what was said and I can switch back to it whenever I’ve got a moment. Plus, with chat, everyone could just come and be whatever they wanted. With irc I feel that the people who truly want to have conversations are there, and for the most part, when no ops are around we do ok at being civil! It’s a bit more adult though. People drop the F bomb a few more times than I’ve seen on chat.

As to the artisan tasks, I’ll get to having a look at those and get back with you in a little while with my notes.

For us church hopefuls, thanks for the encouragement. I’m probably not the only one who needs it from time to time.


Keep the blood/gore/dirty. They’re awesome. They’re so so easy to get rid of with so so many opportunities to get rid of them it’s more of a neat thing to have in my opinion.

Keep cold, too. It’s annoying at first, but easy to adapt too – in fact, I would be for putting in something else. If I’m in a warm place for a while wearing all my winter clothing (somewhere where the weather is sweltering), I could get sick and dehydrated. Either that or start sweating when it’s warm/hot and I’m in warm clothing.

On the food gives energy thing, I was thinking about this yesterday and I got distracted, so didn’t bring it up. On that aspect, I think it would be neat if some foods made your energy stay higher faster or for a temporary time. For instance, I go and eat four snickers bars in real life; I’m going to have a sugar high. Lots of energy for a short period of time. Then, I’m going to crash for a while – lower energy for a lower amount of time. Second, the more hearty foods, as well as filling you up, should make their affects known. When I eat a nice, big, steak I feel sort of full and relaxed. My energy output isn’t the greatest, but I’m not tired, either. On the other hand, if I eat like a protein shake or a smoothy, or something to fill me up – I’m thinking of breakfast foods here – I wake up, I get energy quickly, and it sticks with me for a while. So to put all this in game terms, have some foods that boost energy regeneration for a short period of time, with a reduction after the primary affect (coffee). Have food that fills you up for a longer period of time (hearty meats and such). Have food that will boost the maximum amount of energy you have for a while, but will make your neutrission suffer after the fact (I eat a good breakfast and before I realize it its lunch time and god I forgot how hungry I was).

As to the gad losing his light thing, it’s interesting to have two people responding to it. If this is the case, stop complaining – there was plenty of GM interaction in my book.

The long time between letter responses from npcs can be frustrating, sure, but it’s up to us too to keep our patients and try to deal with it. I for one, although thinking about the player base, forgot that it’s not just me with alts. I mean someone stated they had 13 earlier in this thread, and here I am narrowing my list down to 3! Anyhow, looking at it that way, clok does probly have like 50 players – we might kill Rias and company if we get 50 of them all on at once with their respective alts just waiting in the wings.

[jilliana]

I'm going to admit to only picking through posts because I have the feeling reading this entire thread will make me a little crazy.

Not having chat is really nice. It makes it easier but ness necessary to go completely hardcore. I haven't had the chance to do the IRC thing yet, mostly because I'm having a pretty serious computer issue that I can't find the solution for.

Dirty/gory/bloody: I like it. I don't like smelly very much but that's because I'm a female. It would be nice if more water sources would be made available, particularly in infirmaries. I think this would help the annoyance factor a little bit.

Being cold: i do wish the time in which one freezes could be adjusted, especially when one wears all the appropriate layers and materials. Maybe there could be a mechanic that determines if someone is moving or not. Moving would equal to even less likelyhood of freezing to death, and just standing there would make one cold/freeze a bit sooner.

Guild points: thank you for adjusting them Rias. I know I'm more likely to remove myself from Thaelsh tasks (because of IC drama) and highwaymen tasks (too little pay/guild points for 3 fools that want me dead( and also because they do feel like they are too far out of my range of skill to be worth the time and effort. Give me animal critters over humans any old time!

Hunger: Well, I addressed this in Elystole's thread, but I guess mostly I'm not very happy with how it is now. i do like Merin's idea of food having different effects and energy, but I don't think I'm wrong in thinking that this was going to be in the works eventually? Not sure.

Wouldn't chicken alfredo pizza have a weird texture?

[Liani]

Rias. I appreciate the time you took to look through everything. and the pizza sounds good if only a bit weird. also, thanks for the encouragement about the church hopefuls. I might not be one of the keepers but again, glad to know someone's thinking about them. Ok, moving on. I don't really have a problem with the hunger mechanic except that i've noticed it's become something to deal with rather than something exciting to rp. Blood and gore is kind of cool if you're the warrior sort of person. i agree with Jilliana that more water sources would be helpful with that, especially in hamlets. maybe I haven't really found some that are there so correct me if I'm wrong. Regarding cold it would be cool to be able to stay warmer if you're wearing warm layers or fur armor. Maybe if the cold wouldn't set in so quickly people might want to log in cooler areas. I think that was one of the reasons I took a lot of my logging up to Mistral when i first got started since, those were the only areas I was familiar with. The Udemi that were around then weren't very happy and will be less so this winter with the new changes that have to do with the gaea. I guess that ties in with the artisan tasks that call for 38 flitches from the rarer trees. I'll think of anymore artisan tasks as I play but there really aren't too many tasks that are too hard. They're more involved and take longer. They can be difficult however if you don't have the skills for a particular one. i'm so glad that their are plans to rework artisan tasks and that the penalty will be gone for them in the meantime. i might actually get somewhere. I love irc. I'm glad that chat is gone because I feel it used to cut into the rp or the combat or whatever i was doing when the messages came through. I liked chat because of the chance to interact with people out of character but feel that irc is a better place to do that since i can focus until i'm ready to look over at that window.

[Elystole]

Cold: What are some changes that we can make to this to make it better? I still want it to be a thing - I maintain that it's pretty ridonc if people go out in freezing weather wearing light clothing. It's one of those quirks about me, I guess - it bugs me when people do stuff like that, or go tromping across the wilderness barefoot, or walk around town naked.

I would do two things: The first is give or increase the insulation value of non-fur armors. If you're wearing it, it should help keep you from freezing to death especially when you remember that mail and plate armors are not just the metal components but also a gambeson or some other form of padding underneath. In any case, I remember sweating beneath my body armor even in cold weather and that was just a kevlar vest with ceramic plates in it. The other thing is that once you cross a certain threshold of insulation you should pretty much be immune to the cold unless you get doused or are stomping around in arctic or alpine environments. Part of the problem with the CLOK system is that hypothermia sets in far too quickly. If you are wearing your warming layers, your body temperature isn't going to drop that much especially if you are active, and CLOK characters are by definition active since if we're out in the cold we're hiking, fighting, logging, whatever.

Nutrition stuff: I'm not dead set on this aspect of the game as it's currently implemented, although I do like that it's a thing. Despite some not thinking of CLOK as a survival game, I actually do think of it that way. If you wander away from towns and off the roads in this essentially post-apocalyptic quarantine zone, you should be prepared to survive not only wandering monsters, but the dangers of being far away from civilization and convenience. I try hard to make CLOK so that combat capability isn't the only important thing. I'm particularly not sold on the recent re-implementation of nutrition-to-gain-energy that I think most people are upset over. I like the concept, because it just makes sense to me, and it gives food a little more purpose than just "eat it when you travel the wilderness".

When I think of a survival game, I think of being dumped in the woods with nothing and surviving through my wits and acquisition of a sharp stick. My enemy is the environment. I don't view CLOK as a survival game because the wilderness isn't that dangerous, the survival systems are half-implemented, and the presence of towns makes "surviving" automatic. Hungry? Stock up on rations and the problem is solved. Cold? Buy some furs. When I first started playing I did buy a waterskin, bedroll, and blanket thinking I'd need them, but I've never had to use them.

It's just really hard to have a survival game when you have towns. If you try to increase the difficulty of the survival components, you start pushing the boundaries of disbelief like now: I really shouldn't be wolfing down entire meat pies and whole stews as quickly as I do. I shouldn't start to freeze to death even while wearing a full suit of furs in fifteen or thirty minutes.

It might be better to cede that the primary territory in the Lost Lands is rather civilized, being within a relatively short ride of town, and have some game areas that have more of the survival element because of their inherent danger and distance from civilization. The Desert of Desolation is an obvious candidate for this, and I was having similar thoughts while climbing that mountain north of Stone Canyon. Even in our modern world, deserts and mountains are pretty dangerous.

[preiman]

yes you get hungry quickly, and yes you freeze quickly, but you have to remember you are also covering some really vast distances quickly. If that last stops being true, while the others still are, I'll have an issue but until then I am more or less OK with it.

[Elystole]

yes you get hungry quickly, and yes you freeze quickly, but you have to remember you are also covering some really vast distances quickly. If that last stops being true, while the others still are, I'll have an issue but until then I am more or less OK with it.

Except that I'm not. Most of my hunger or temperature issues come about while I'm in a hunting ground.

[Gad]

Apparently, the idea of maintaining and raising the player base by focusing on your players is too radical of an idea for some. Trying to disparage me as a person or how I play my character, again, to marginalize my point, doesn’t change the fact that the player base has declined. I am asking you to not just view this as a hobby but its creative potential. What if 50 people were playing CLOK right now? What if 100 people were playing? It is your game and that is why I hold you accountable for the size of the player base. With all of the creativity, skill, and intelligence that has been put into this game I believe you can do it. You were one your way earlier this year.

I would like to help with the financial burdens that CLOK carries. I am just asking that you push your excellence.

So, with that, I will see you all in game.

[Zoiya]

Apparently, the idea of maintaining and raising the player base by focusing on your players is too radical of an idea for some. Trying to disparage me as a person or how I play my character, again, to marginalize my point, doesn’t change the fact that the player base has declined. I am asking you to not just view this as a hobby but its creative potential. What if 50 people were playing CLOK right now? What if 100 people were playing? It is your game and that is why I hold you accountable for the size of the player base. With all of the creativity, skill, and intelligence that has been put into this game I believe you can do it. You were one your way earlier this year.

I would like to help with the financial burdens that CLOK carries. I am just asking that you push your excellence.

So, with that, I will see you all in game.

I don't think that anyone is trying to disparage you as a player or a character. They were just explaining something that was brought up in the whole "we don't give you answers" deal. Everything we do in this game is tailored to the players. Everything we build, implement, and create is geared toward all of you. Some things are less liked than others, but we don't create things just because it sounds fun. We do it to drive the game forward and make this place more dynamic for all of you. I understand that you don't like the way some things are, and that is certainly something that we can't change, but it doesn't mean that things are not moving forward. A lot of the points you brought up were already in the works to be improved. It's been said several times, but I don't think you're seeing that. We have been doing a lot to make things more fun for you guys and more RP centered. I don't know how else to say it, but we're doing what you want. You're just going to have to be patient and let us do that. We can't just flip a switch and make everything just happen. Some things take time.

I believe that Rias opened up discussion on these threads so that he can try to fix some of the things that are disliked. Hopefully we'll get more feedback on the things that have made the game harder for people , or less fun, so that it can be addressed. The RP, conflict and craziness will be coming. Please be patient for it.

[Noctere]

I feel I should jump in here with a few thoughts of my own. Please do not take offense if these go against your point of view but rather please take it with a grain of salt and an open mind.

I keep hearing the argument that more GM interaction is the course we should take to increase our player population. Let's think about that for a moment. I have no doubt that if our GM staff interacted with our players on a more frequent basis that this would increase our player base, in the short run. However, in the long run this would have a detrimental effect and a tendency to burn out our GM staff. Interacting with players can be a lot of fun and I myself do it quite often but it can be draining when we also have our own real lives to deal with and sometimes it feels discouraging. Often we have planned a major event only to have it canceled from a player not noticing what their character is doing or we have an event running and no one cares to join in as they are too busy "mining for ore" or something to that effect.

In addition, over time I noticed (much like old Sceptus) that players start to expect more and more attention also they start to feel entitled to it. I am not blaming anyone or calling them a bad person but rather, this is common human nature. When something special is given regularly over time, it no longer remains special. This is not to say we haven't taken steps to increase our interaction, we have even gone so far as to take on a new event JGM for that very purpose.

Another point to consider is that many other MUDs out there do not have the level of interaction that we have currently and yet many of those have well over a hundred players. So it shows that GM interaction is -not- the only means to increase the population.

My last point to consider is DO WE WANT a large population? Many of us tend to think that an MUD with more players is more successful and therefore better than other MUDs with less players. I do not believe this to be the case. So many other MUDs have HUGE populations but too often the players are more interested in scripting their characters to obtain more power. They do little or no role play and they don't see themselves as a real person in a virtual world but rather a collection of stats to raise so they can "pwn" other players and show how mighty they are from doing nothing all day but running their scripted bot.

Quality over quantity. I love when we have a tight knit group of role players that are willing to stick together to help create a fantasy world. If more would like to join us to that end, then they are welcome but more does not necessarily mean better.

[merin]

Wow. i didn't even consider some of Noctere's points. interesting outlook and deffinetly something, from my end, to ponder.