Couple of my thoughts.

[merin]

First off, I would like to point out that I’m not trying to be a complacent and unopretiative jerk, here, however, I do feel that there are a couple of things that are making me really not want to play the game (at least for now), and I’m hoping that a civil, intelligent, discussion can be had about these things – meaning no feelings get hurt, no one feels like they’re being slighted, etcetera. So having said that here we go.

First, I want to bring up the guild point loss on removal of tasks.
Speaking strictly from an Artisan point of view, this is completely and utterly unfair. I will take a random task I am received. Mine iron. This seems like it is an easy task – and at my skill level, sure, although it takes a bit of doing. From a beginner artisan point of view, however, it’s impossible. Even with the mining apprentice ability, there are just not enough skill points to see iron, let alone mine it, for a number of lessons yet. It can be argued that, yes. Lessons do go up somewhat quickly and yes, grinding is the key, however, they are getting nothing for their grinding. They get paid so they can take a lesson and save up for a house, sure, but in order to get their abilities that will allow them to do their job well, it will take them days in order to accomplish it.

Secondly, the forging commodity task. We have to repeat the process – and this can take even more time – due to the mining skill gains to reliably get metal, the riln needed to train said skills (assuming they can’t, and probably won’t be able to, get their skills from other people all the time). They must then spend a number of hours even forging to get their skills to a level where making any sort of commodity is worth it. If they have to make things that require a lot of metal, that’s taking even more time. In my opinion, doing tasks shouldn’t be the easiest; however, in this case it will take hours just for 40 measly guild points, taking them forever and a day just to get to third rank.

A third and my final task for this are retrieving x amount of boar/whatever pelts. I’ve asked, and with the people who have been willing, it is almost impossible. No one seems to be willing to put forth the time to assist in getting ten pristine pelts – even less so that can skin them for you.

I’m just speaking for one guild here; however, I would guess that some others have similar concerns about their respective guilds. While I do completely love the idea of having penalties for removing tasks, I do feel that it is not ready for this yet due to the reasons explained above and the other players’ concerns.

I’m aware my second issue here might be coming close to causing an outright war on the boards here, however, I would just like to remind once again that I’m really not trying to ruffle any feathers – just trying to get my frustrations and my concerns out there in attempting to get it straightened out and really understanding.

I have found that the combat side of things is not for me through trial and error, so, after months of thought, I have decided to create a monk hopeful. I know from conversations that this was going to be a difficult journey, both getting there and making it work even after. I just want to state that this isn’t my issue. I relish and enjoy the challenge, and look forward to making my character fit into the idea that has been outlined and attempting to make that fit in work within both the thaumaturgy guidelines and the ideals that the GMs have for the church.

A conversation came up on IRC and, while I do understand, I’m not sure as a player what to think. Basically, it was told that I should create a character that I enjoy playing even if I don’t get into the Monastic Order. I have done so, however, from a character standpoint, his ambitions are to attempt to get into the order. Unfortunately, this leaves me as a player and my character in a sort of limbo.

From the character perspective, he is built on the ideas that the church have, at least to the best of my abilities, and that limits his options. He could stay guiltless and make herbs and poultices for people and fish and cook. From event standpoints how is that going to work? As it stands now, he’s already limited. Yes. He can get better and role-play his desires forever, and if that’s the case then fine. It’ll be my get on and chill out with people character, but I’m not going to just sack that hope of getting in – especially since that is, from design, his concept. It could be argued that I shouldn’t have designed him that way, but I am playing a game, and I feel that without at least a good concept in mind the character is unreliable, fluctuates, and generally isn’t a character – more of whatever I want him to be on a whim. Having said that, if something in character happens to develop him into something else, that’s acceptable, because it will help add to the concept of the character, and his life story.

Now, from a mechanical standpoint, as stated, I’m not big on the whole non-combat thing. If I was, I would have gotten one of my combat characters up to, and stuck with one long enough to, make him a force to be reckoned with and probably found some engaging RP to back that up. So, since I’m not, what am I to do? I can keep raising my farming skill and fishing skill and first aid skill and I’ll eventually break a hundred in herbalism from making poultices, however, that’s about it. Since I’m attempting to follow the Thaumaturgy Guidelines, he can’t hunt, doesn’t wish to promote the slaying of animals simply to cook it, doesn’t want to be involved in combat so grinding any skill related to that isn’t an option, and wants to be helpful. Thankfully there are a number of people – and thanks for that, guys – who are willing to let me poultice them in order to fit within my RP concept. So, mechanically, there’s nothing to enjoy after a while because there are no other non-combat guilds for me to partake in. Also, having one character for me will lead to me burning out and vanishing from the game after a while, maybe permanently or at least for a good long time. I will admit this is why I’ve given my artisan a break – grinding craft skills for a while gave me a desire to drop it for a bit. I really like the community, the game, and what is becoming, so, I don’t want to do that.

So, putting this all together, I guess I’m outright asking if this is even feasible. Is the church going to be something of a tease that people get into one in every six months? Is it still closed – and if so, why? If this is the case, then, that’s fine; however, I do feel that at this point I’m left sort of in the wind here with nothing really to conclude. I’ve sent a letter and heard nothing back – and if I’m not going to, I feel that I should at least know, rather than be kept waiting for something that for now isn’t even being looked at, considered, etcetera. I love putting my time into my character; however, I’m not going to do it for nothing. If I don’t have a chance OOCly, or if there’s something that needs to be hashed out before I’m given a chance, I’d love to know. I’d love to be a part of whatever would make the game better for that matter. If I’m not going to be given a chance because of in game things, I feel I deserve to know that in game, too, and that can either be worked out or I can use that to enhance my role-play.

From an in character perspective, I’m not complaining about the time it’s taking to get a response – OOCly I did feel I had a shot. Actually, not hearing back has increased my desire and my hoping, however, if that hope is for not, I feel it’s only fair to have that told to me straight out – from an out of character perspective. If it’s a character, whatever will happen will happen, and that will and should be dealt with in that medium.

Anyhow, that’s my ramble and rant. I’m sorry if I upset anyone or made anyone annoyed and or frustrated.

On one last note, and hopefully a more welcome one, I do just want to say once again that I love Clok. I spend the majority of my time on the computer connected to the game, the community on irc, or both. I do this because I firmly believe that this is one hell of a game, with some great people who are insightful and interesting to speak with and be around. Having said that, I want to help make Clok better. I know you GMs put in a lot of time, effort, and resources to make us enjoy our time. I wish to give back. I want to do something in my own small way to show how much I opretiate the game and to help it grow. If there’s anything at all I can do short of playing the game and being hopefully one of the good parts of it, then, I would love to. I don’t feel that playing is enough opretiation – I really do want to help in some way, too. You guys put in so much time, effort, and I’m sure it’s a bummer some days. I just want to do what little I can to help out and make the game better for all of you who don’t just play, but work on it, too.

If that’s making a character design or something that would bring your visions to fruition or doing something else that I have the talent for that would help ease the burden that we all put on you guys, please, let me know. I want to see Clok grow into even better of a place. Despite this being the most complacent and ranty, from the bottom of my heart I do hope that this is for the best – helping to straighten things out and to help me and others who may benefit from reading this thread and its responses.

[Stranger]

I have posted that I sell pelts on the town boards numerous times. If you need pristine pelts, send me a mail with how many and how much you are willing to pay.

[merin]

I haven't seen your posts about pelts for a while.

[Liani]

I have never seen posts about pelts. I only knew about him on my trader because someone mentioned him. But how often does he come around/ Do i hang on to a task for two weeks so he can get back to me? There in lies the issue.

[Stranger]

I registered my in game mail to my real life e-mail. So! If you send me a letter, I should have the pelts ready for you fairly soon-ish. (If anyone else wants to do this, it's #9 on the options)

[Stranger]

Oh, I also forgot to mention. I have TONS of pelts! If you would like to pre-order a lot from me for your tasks, that may work out pretty good for ya. Of course this is all OOC info so if you want to know more, ask me in game. Be careful though I am a heckler for my characters RP. *glares at you menacingly*

[Rias]

The Church guilds should be considered closed, invite-only guilds. I hate to sound mean and say this, but if you're only going to find it worth playing your character if you know there's a 100% chance you'll get into monks/templar, you should probably move on to a different character.

A lot of people want to get into these guilds, and it especially bugs me when they're the "I want a character in every guild!" alts (not saying this is specifically anyone, but I know they're out there). Considering how often we got lip service letters/interviews from people, only to have them do a 180 once they got into the guild and got their sweet powers, we're leery of letting people in based on professed good intentions/backstory alone. Again, my advice is to play your character as you want and it's fine to profess hope to get into one of those guilds someday, but said professing of hope doesn't guarantee entry or even speedy consideration. A character can don armor, pick up weapons, and fight against nethrim and protect the people without being a Templar, and people can heal without being a Monk. Not as well as being in said guilds, granted, but it can be done, so I suggest your character try and do those things even if they aren't in the guild, and if for whatever reason they don't get in, well, they can still do good stuff on their own. There will be sort of "counterpart" guilds to both soon. One is almost officially out - the Wyrvardn, protectors of the people. A guild dedicated to healing via more advanced herbal methods is potentially planned as well, for those who want to be healers but don't want to learn, or don't have the knack for, thaumaturgy.

[merin]

First off I do want to state about the yay I have a character in every guild thing. I’ve got a number of alts and I have used them to find my niche in the game. I have used them to find out what I do and do not like, and help shape as a player what ideals I have for characters I really enjoy playing. Having said that, I’ll give you a list of names right now that you can delete, set on fire, whatever the case may be. I don’t want characters in every guild. I just wanted to find the place I really do enjoy in clock, and I have done so. They didn’t work out for me, I found for one reason or another I didn’t enjoy them – not specifically from a guild perspective, but from a player’s perspective. I’d be more than happy to have a conversation about that; however, I don’t feel that this is what the topic is about. My offer is serious, though, I’ll give you all but three of them that you can get rid of for one reason or another, and I have my reasons for enjoying those three imparticular, and those are the three I intend to keep playing. Truthfully, I wouldn’t miss the others much – they’re just not for me, and I regret that I had to go through so many creations to really find the things about the game that are where I want to be.

Second of all, I would love to offer a thank you from the bottom of my heart to some people, even those I don’t know particularly who they are. I would like to thank you for allowing things to get to this level. I’ve thought long and hard about creating a church character that would not provide lip service and simply shut it down once I got in. I feel that this is unfair to those who would have to put in the time and effort to give me entrance, due to the roleplaying involved, and for those people that I have role-played with. I feel that the non-rp entrance guilds would allow me to do one of two things. First, weed out the things that I didn’t like. If I wouldn’t have made some efforts, I may have went for Templar instead, however, thanks to my experimentation, I know I would have let the staff down if that one panned out for me – I have said it before, but I’ll say it again…I’m not a combat player very much. There at least is one person who honest to goodness would actually make something of it, for better (hopefully staff would agree), and from what I know of the others that are in my posission, would as well. One of the upsides to trying a little bit of everything is my confidence in this statement. I can’t speak for them and will not do so, however, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for pulling the bait and switch and causing this to be an issue. Yes, that was sarcastic.

To the GMs who have gotten burned by the people, I’m sorry. That really sucks, and I do enjoy playing my character, even if it’s a bit difficult at times because all I can do is fish, farm, and poultice those who actually accept it. Either way, though, over all, I do enjoy my character. I’m not expecting speedy consideration – I do, however, retain the hope that it can be done and will at least be considered at some point, even if I’m rejected. I just ask though that if I am rejected for whatever reason I will know, because to maintain hope and to never get any sort of answer is pretty screwed up in itself. Again, I’m not asking for an answer today or even next month, but I don’t think, on the other side, it’s fair to make your players who do want to help out and be worthy of getting in bust their asses forever without any sort of word, positive or negatively, ever. I’m not saying at all that this is the case – in fact, I feel that you guys are all fair people and will not keep us barking up a tree we never have a chance to climb. If we didn’t, I think you would have said no one is getting in, period. The fact you didn’t was answer enough to me that in fact the church is open for those people who want it enough to sit down and put some real effort into it. If you want an invite, freeking urn it is the way I took it.

On that note, Rias, you stated that the best thing we can do is, in summary, live the good life. Fine. I feel my character has been doing this. I’ve healed those I can, filled trunks with food, given produce away and argued with people over not paying me, bandaged and retrieved those that have fallen. Not used a single ounce of force to do what I need to, have talked to people – both in the church and not about it – and all I can think of. The fact that I’ve received a good number of RPA’s on my character shows me that at least something am getting noticed. I feel I’m putting in the work. If that’s not getting through to you guys upstairs, then, what can I do to show more? I’m asking from an ooc perspective. Do you want me to think more? Write a journal? Whatever the case may be, I’m going to do what it takes to at least get a yes or a no answer at some point in the future. I do have to admit that I love the challenge and love the character, so, doing it isn’t the issue. I guess what I’m getting around to is I don’t want to be a hindrance to you guys, but I do want to do things that will at least show you guys what I’m attempting to do. This isn’t simply for this character, either. I don’t know what you do and don’t see or what you do and don’t look at, so, if my offerings over ESP or my conversations aren’t looked at or whatever then I’d like to know what you guys like to see us do that isn’t a bother in order to keep you keyed into what our characters are doing.

Thank you for the response, and I’m sorry it came to this – I really wish that you guys didn’t get burned so much. Also, I’m serious. I don’t want a character in every guild, especially for the reason that I have one. Is there a way to axe characters I don’t intend to play?

[jilliana]

I'll say this with all due respect and consideration for the GMs.. and their hard work...

I'm sort of glad there are players who are expressing their disatisfaction with some of the changes happening lately. I don't feel quite so rediculous for feeling the way I've been feeling about CLOK. That's not to say I hate the game or expect for anything to change- more that I am sort of starting to understand why some old players tell me why they don't go bak.
I still love the game, just don't feel quite so excited about it like I did even just a few weeks ago.

In regards to guild point removal upon declining a task, I suggest a compromise be made. Maybe 20 points instead of 40?

[Rias]

I'm sort of glad there are players who are expressing their disatisfaction with some of the changes happening lately.

I am, too. I'm tired of hearing 85% of player complaints secondhand through the grapevine. I'm sure complaining to your fellow players is therapeutic, but nothing's going to get done if you don't let the staff know about it.

[xavier]

ok, I'm adding my two cents. I completely understand the seriousness of certain guilds and that some guilds will have guidelines, restrictions, flat out no-nos. Now with regards to the church specifically, monk and templar, the guidelines are not usually difficult to maintain. Sometimes however those guidelines have stopped me personally from saying or doing some things that wouldn't be very church like. I have also seen small examples in the game that while not necessarily against church policy are borderline and could easily be misinterpreted or willingly taken over into the no-no section of policy. So I want to make a suggestion that in my opinion isn't perfect but it will also make existing church members to stop, think, ponder over, and perhaps with some luck understand their roles a bit better while at the same time taking a little bit of the load off GM's as far as watching for potential members of either order.

1. Add to the duties of a Monk/Templar to send in regular report like letters. Once every two weeks, once a month, bi-monthly, any of these would work.
This would have the effect, in my opinion, of the character to sit down, evaluate their time, go over the recent events that have gone on during the time period, people they've met and had signifigant interactions with, as well as the amount of "good" they've accomplished. This would also take into account some of the instances where potential church members have done a better than average job at being good potentials that the GM's missed first hand. I am by no means saying this will rule out the existing members sending in reports on potentials for the sake of they are potentials, however I think it would lend better and more consistent evidence of people's actions, interactions, and could make what I feel existing Monk/Templar should be doing alongside their duties to fight for right and goodness. I personally never cared for those people in real life who claim to be part of a organization and yet refused to be on the lookout for potential new members.

2. A system, completely unknown by the players (minus those GM's who have people in the guilds, of course) be set down in stone to determine what, when, and why a potential person should be invited to the monks/templars.
I am not saying there isn't already a very good set of guidelines that you look for. I'm just saying that there be a sort of checklist of things that you look for that you could read the reports suggested above and go "Oh, that's a good one!" and check off something like the "He/She goes way out of their way to get to an injured person." checkbox. Making this very rigid would be almost as bad as making it so flexible that sometimes are kind of hazy as to where things should be put down. I will not, here at least, put down anymore than this on this suggestion.

If any of the GM's want my input on this check list please email baethyn@gmail.com because I still really haven't gotten used to the PM system here or pull me aside in the game and I'll be more than happy to talk about it.

3. I'm pretty sure this is possible and some of the existing code might be able to cover it, but upon reaching guild rank 5 and receiving the appropriate guild rank. When the guildmaster congratulates you on reaching that guild rank also have them tell you that there is an addition to your duties. Refer to number 1. this would let Monks/Templars get themselves established in a small way, get used to the existing duties of their chosen path before putting some of the responsibility of this on their shoulders.

In conclusion, I suggest that control of who gets into the church remain in full GM control, but that a in character recommendation system be implemented. Almost everything needed to implement this suggestion exists already, NPCMail, paper, quills, mail system, existing monks/templars, promotion code for triggering conversation with guildmaster (with a slight modification). This will, I most sincerely hope, encourage existing characters who are having problems to reevaluate and characters who aren't to continue to evaluate their progress and improve their experiece in these guilds while at the same time taking a fair bit of the observational duties off GM shoulders. I also like the idea personally of Monks/Templars having to just do reports of some kind to let their superiors know what is going on in the world, it feels more real to me. I also think that having the suggestion number 2 concrete would perhaps give both GM's and players a better feeling overall that while definately difficult and time intensive the chance of becoming a monk is there if you truly want it. I don't expect a potential to get a couple glowing reports and badaboom invite sent. Consistent, good, and positive reports on a potentials activities would draw the attention of ranking NPC's and could even , maybe result in an encouragement letter to those who are on the right path. Playing this all out in my head, I would expect that a pure, glowing example could take as short as 6-7 months to achieve their goal or a mediocre example who comes with flaws as long as a year. I personally would be quite leary of the glowing example myself as nobody is perfect but sometimes people hide their faults very well.

Ok I've made thsi post entirely too long and I'm going to end it here and hope you at least find some merit in my suggestions and that what I've put here makes the world a better place.

[Gad]

I have been playing CLOK for about five years now. When I first started the player base was 5-10 players, off and on, and more consistently on the weekends. Five years later, when I have a week off from my most recent work hitch, I get on in the evenings and play CLOK…and still see 5-10 players consistently on the WHO list. What is frustrating about this is that at the beginning of this year CLOK had some 20-30 players consistently on even during the week nights. It seemed that the game was on a projection to grow and then it sharply dropped off. What happened? Over the years I have had many players come to me asking what the deal is with operations of the game and what is being done. They had become disinterested in CLOK because of changes. I see so much skill in the GMs and potential for this game to grow that it is frustrating to hear, “This game would be great but….” Some were not happy with changes but also not happy how they felt they were being treated by other players and GMs.

Now, I would appreciate that everyone would calm down with that last sentence, but, yes, I am calling out all players and GMs of CLOK in general. That includes my-self. So, before I continue I would like to say to anyone who has felt slighted by me in CLOK and stopped playing because of anything I have done, OOCwise ( I would hope any IC issues could be resolved in-game if there were any!), I sincerely apologize. I ask that you return and play again and enjoy this game as much as I do. I work in an industry where I don’t have time to be politically correct and I have to deal with a lot of BS and the constant worry of some jackass lighting up a cigarette and blowing up my career here on earth (Yes, being blown up). As I write this please understand I deal with the most abrasive people on the earth who don’t have time to haggle and discuss feelings but need the bottom line right now. I do enjoy playing CLOK with all of you (you might not think so) and I understand that the GMs take their time to build this. I understand that you give time from your families to be on CLOK and would hope that before you worry about what I am doing here you take care of your personal life.

GM’s, your player base has suffered. You are losing long time players because of what? Merin brought up his points. Others will have to share why they have left. From what I have been told a large part of it is because of changes that have bogged down the joys of playing CLOK. Many changes have affected player’s game play entirely with no apparent balance. In some cases there has been zero response to IC roleplay ideas for changes or to ideas. We all understand that there will be changes and tweeking of numbers, so, I am telling you what has been expressed to me. If players are going to leave because you are affecting their game play it is telling me that you need to be more involved with the players as GMs. I am not talking about making special items or an event every 3 months or a little attack on a town now and then. I am talking about constantly being involved in their character development. I can see some of you are sitting there getting angry at me thinking how much time you think you spend with players and involve the players in events. If that is the case then why has game content in CLOK increased but the player base has decreased and remained stagnant over the last year? As a group, you need to answer, why is it that people are leaving this game? The wrong answer is to blame the players. Your meetings should be answering questions like, “How are we going to attract new players to this game?” “How are we going to keep the players we have now?” “If we make these changes how is it going to affect our player’s game play?” Some of you preach that we are a CLOK family and that is great but you need to approach us as customers and think about what it is that we see in this game. What value do I see in this game as a player? The wrong answer is to tell me that if I don’t like what happens here then go play somewhere else. That is a bullsh*t answer because your ego keeps you from engaging us as players.

Now, I would appreciate that everyone would calm down for a moment from what I just wrote. If you are feeling sick from the words I have written here feel free to use the bathroom at this time. If you feel unappreciated as a GM, please, understand that I think CLOK kicks ass. I love this game. I WANT you to succeed at this game. I think many people who play genuinely think this game has great potential but stop because of changes and how they are treated.

What I am asking of you as a group of GMs is to get out of your box. Get out of your bubble and create a vision of what this game could be. What if there were 100 players on CLOK right now with its current content? Can you imagine the amount of healing that would be going on, constantly rescuing the fallen, the amount of thieving, traders who actually play, a group of Corvites running-a-muck? Of course the dynamic of the game would change. What will it take to get CLOK to that level? What you have been doing has not been working. It has alienated your player base.

There are probably some who are reading this thinking that CLOK could never achieve that status. Perhaps some are angry at what I have said here. Maybe, I am alone with this line of though. Maybe, you think I am wrong. Well, I offer an incentive to help you break out of your box and burst your bubble. I challenge you as a group of GMs and players to raise the player base to 50 that are consistently online CLOK by March 31, 2015. If you can achieve this I will donate $2000.00 to CLOK. The great thing here is that I believe those involved with this game want the player base to grow. GMs, we are cheering for you. I think it is very possible for you to achieve that. I am willing to help and will make myself available on Skype if you are serious and want ideas on how to reach that. I am sure there are other players with ideas who want to increase the player base. I am f**king serious like a heart attack. If you raise the player base to 50 consistently online I will donate that money.

[Rias]

We would love to have more specific feedback. The hot topics I can think of are mostly Church related - the more involved/patience-requiring initiation consideration process, more specific thaumaturgic guidelines (they were always the expectation from the beginning; now they're just more clarified), adhering to behavioral guidelines in general - a lot of people don't like that they have to do this (I'm still not sure why they want to be in the guilds if that's the case, but I've never gotten an answer on that).

The non-Church-related things I can recall hearing a good deal of complaints about are horses getting tired (the general outcry was "make it less so", which we did, and I haven't heard anything on the subject since), and the recent nutrition expended on energy regeneration, which I also haven't heard any further feedback on after the initial burst and tweaking, so I'm assuming we've found a happy place there.

So, what are the big-ticket issues? I hear a lot about long-time players getting grumpy or wanting to leave, or people saying CLOK is in a big decline. I hope some of the people feeling this way will give us some specific details as to why they think that is. I've had a couple people make some general allusions, but for the most part it seems they're content to be upset about it but not make it clear to staff.

Here's your chance to be bold. Voice your opinions, tell us why you're upset with CLOK, and give us a chance to actually do something about it. Complain to your friends about it to vent, sure - but it would be really useful if you took the major points of your vent and then informed us on staff so that we can realize the concerns are there and address the specific points. Help us know and address the problems in CLOK. If we never hear about it, we can't take care of it.

[merin]

Hi,

I’ve voiced my questions and concerns. I borught up the artisan guildpoint loss, and my unsureness about how getting into church works. I’m not even complaining about it – I just want a straight answer, and if there isn’t one, to be told so. If I'm never going to get in and that's already been decided I'd like to know so I stop trying to find ways to prove myself. As far as the skillgain thing is, I said my piece, and that’s that. I’m not trying to sho displeasure at the game at all, contrary to what people have said, but I’m trying to understand and make it a better playing experience for me and …honestly, I’ve said all this before. I’m just repeating myself at this point.

[Rias]

I do have to say, I think one thing that really contributed to our higher numbers (I don't recall ever getting to 30, but I remember getting excited at 23 one day) was that we had a lot of people consistently voting on mudconnect.com. We were top 10 for several months, and we were up to spot 2 for a little while there, even. We had some good numbers when that happened.

I think everyone kind of fell out of the habit (myself included), so if you think CLOK is worth your vote, we'd really appreciate your going through the effort to vote for it as often as possible.

[merin]

I do have to say, I think one thing that really contributed to our higher numbers (I don't recall ever getting to 30, but I remember getting excited at 23 one day) was that we had a lot of people consistently voting on mudconnect.com. We were top 10 for several months, and we were up to spot 2 for a little while there, even. We had some good numbers when that happened.

I think everyone kind of fell out of the habit (myself included), so if you think CLOK is worth your vote, we'd really appreciate your going through the effort to vote for it as often as possible.

It's kind of a pain in the butt for screenreaders if I recall.

SUggestion: an option to, every six hours or so, ping us with a reminder.

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URL here.

[Rias]

The straightest answer I can give on getting into Church guilds is to repeat what I said before - they're closed, invite-only guilds at this point. You're free to aspire to get in, but it's not going to be a guarantee. If you're not a good fit, you're not a good fit. There's no one way to get in, like a series of checkpoints or tasks you need to do. A big (the biggest) part is playing your character often enough that we can see what they're like and get to know them to even be able to determine if they're a good fit. If we know you're aspiring for it and we decide you're not a good fit, we'll let you know somehow - we don't want to just leave people hanging forever. So I guess you could say no news is good news.

So while we're on the subject, what do people feel about this? Merin has made his thoughts known - what about other people? Is this terrible? Should we go back to just "ask Dimmes about initiation" and you're in, enjoy? Should we just teach anyone thaumaturgy, and piss of the vast majority of people who end up having issues because their actions aren't aligned with the thaumaturgic discipline? Should we go a step further and just say meh, screw the guidelines, everyone hates them anyway, let's just make thaumaturgy like any other magic people can learn and use however they want instead of trying to manage the treacherous waters of basing it on difficult-to-judge behavioral and moral standards?

And what are some more non-Church issues?

[merin]

Thank you for a little more elaboration and confirmation we won’t be waiting forever if we’re not a good fit. If I meant to sound like I wanted a list from point A to point B to point C, then, I’m sorry I didn’t mean it to come across that way.

Since you asked, here are my thoughts on initiations. I think that there should be some sort of thing to it – but, I think that about a few other guilds, too. Shar is the one that comes to mind first and foremost.

I think that if people want to enter the church, they should go through something. It shouldn’t take six months, but it shouldn’t take two hours, either.

One thing I do want to point out though is if the applicant makes it, then, fine. They have a chance to prove themselves even more as a good church member. If they don’t, kick them the f**k out. Nothing is wrong with that. Just excommunicate them. Have dimmes or whoever is in charge of that give them a letter if things are going bad, or have the church members police themselves a bit too. If monk A doesn’t think monk B is doing it right, get monks C, D< and E together and have them all talk it out with monk B. if they don’t straighten up, have monks A, C, D, and E bring it to higher attention where in, as you guys take time to get to know us anyway, you will have the final say reguardless. If they argue about it, your decision is made…see you, play another character, don’t play. Or, better yet, do something with it and change your character for the better. Jilliana, from the outside, is an example of this.

Another way, which I’m going to try IC (Hopefully Lae plays along with us), is to have a job shadowing system. You want to be a monk, fine. Have dimmes or have players once they’re in a posission to in the church be able to help Dimmes filter out new recruits. Have them jobshadow a monk. For instance, I was going to have Dorrien, Hali’s in with this too, talk to lay and say I wanna learn more, teach me the life you live. It would be sort of up to that player to put them through the paces and say ok, you’re now mine. I own you. I’m going to put you through the paces. I’m going to make you do things, see how you respond. If they don’t like it, write to dimmes with their advice. If they do, write to dimmes with a letter of recommendation. It would be up to the new player to go out and seek a mentor to apprentice under. If they aren’t taken on by anyone for no reason, then maybe something might need to be done.

I again appologise if I pushed your buttons and pissed you off, and thank you for elaborating farther.

Note too that I think more guilds should be RP to get into. I’m enjoying trying.

[Lae]

Just going to put it here that the shadowing thing would make Lae uncomfortable. I like to help. I like to heal. I like to RP myself in a lot of situations. But what most people don't realize is that if they shadowed Lae, they'd spend about 90 percent of their time in a tower entertaining a kid and cooking. It's boring. I make my rounds and go to infirmaries and do some foraging. But the only thing that you're going to learn is that Lae likes to walk places.

[merin]

Well shoot. that's going to make interesting RP next time we see each other!

[Jaster]

Plus, you'll put Jaster into a jealous rage, possibly causing a fecal storm.

Speaking of a fecal storm, I just so happened to be pooping when I read Gad saying to feel free to go to the bathroom.

And I would add that my brother says he stopped playing because he thought it was stupid to have to wash himself off to use a shop. Somehow that sucked the fun out of it for him. But he's a sissy. Typically, I think it's little changes like that which send some people scurrying (even though the changes have no massive impact on playing the game). There have been changes I haven't liked in the past, but I always somehow get over it. :D

[Makkah]

Plus, you'll put Jaster into a jealous rage, possibly causing a fecal storm.

Speaking of a fecal storm, I just so happened to be pooping when I read Gad saying to feel free to go to the bathroom.

And I would add that my brother says he stopped playing because he thought it was stupid to have to wash himself off to use a shop. Somehow that sucked the fun out of it for him. But he's a sissy. Typically, I think it's little changes like that which send some people scurrying (even though the changes have no massive impact on playing the game). There have been changes I haven't liked in the past, but I always somehow get over it. :D

It's a fair point that some of the tiny (snowballing) nuances seem to have made people quit. Getting bloody/gory, rain/cold, horses getting "repossessed" or what-not, nutrition, are all ones I have heard. Although, I do realize how real/gritty the GMs want it to be. Let's be serious, the average MUD player kind of wants to be hand-held and rewarded versus play a realistic and meticulous game.

As it is, the current CLOK players don't seem to be average MUD folks. Maybe a toning down of the nutrition and cold system might make it a bit more tolerable for the new folks/average MUDders. Just an idea.

[Isiaa]

One possible solution for the entire church thing could be some form of acolyte system where the aspiring member goes through basic first aid training and whatever else is required. They don't get access to Thaumaturgy but do get access to First Aid training and they would be expected to live by the code. If they can do so in a satisfying manner they can choose whether to be a monk or a templar and get access to some more appropriate training. Weapons and shield use for templars, advanced first aid for monks(Bear in mind, I haven't ever played as a Church member so I don't know what skills are required or useful)

It would take longer but it would make the RP easier and we can if they fit. If they don't fit, they fail at the acolyte stage.

My main pet peeve is the lack of IC justification for sending an Elemancer into a hugely dangerous area. And the easiest way to fix it I think is have the combat abilities of the elemancer compared to the average of the area they're being sent to and then having the task giver add something like "This area is dangerous. You should hire some mercenaries to make sure your studies are undisturbed". Because why would you send one of the rare savants who can manipulate ambient matter into elemental shapes into an infested den which could claim the lives of even skilled warriors?

[jilliana]

Here's my take on the Thaumaturgy and church thing for now. I'll write up a more thorough take on my other feelings later when I have a little bit more time to sit down and write.

The church, on the player-front, can't police itself right now. That's something one would have to find out IC from Jilliana.
I do think that it is a good idea for a church official to ask a more experienced Templar/monk if they think a person would be a good fit. It wouldn't so much as a make it or break it for that other person, but for a church official to get a perspective on if bringing a person into the church would be a good idea from the player perspective. I wouldn't go for giving a templar/monk that sort of thing at a certain level. That has to be something a GM has to determine on their own- if they see a templar displays the maturity enough to have a mature, non-biased opinion on a templar-wanna-be. This whole thing though, although appealing and cool and involved, also brings the risk of making the church a bunch of buddies who got their pals into the guild and if you're not liked you're given a negative review.
I don't think there is a problem at all with the initiation period. Jill had no problem with it at all. It was a good opportunity to establish my character and I certainly enjoyed the challenge since I never played that type of character before. Yes, the waiting kills, but it's really worth it in the end to be one-on-one with a GM for the interview and the type of RP the church gets involved in.
The waiting period shouldn't be set. The church is very much a place where one gets pressure from all sides, and some characters need time to prove themselves worthy and others may not need it quite so much. If it takes 6 months to roleplay being in a guild that requires you to roleplay someone that heals, guards, guides, can't kill indiscriminantly, eats lots of grass and has to show patience, compassion and all that other fuzzy stuff, then that's what it takes. The church in the meantime can express to a waiting player that they are being considered.

It does amuse me that non-church characters have an opinion about dimming, and have to take a big bite of reality when it happens to them eventually.

[Sneaky]

I'm a pretty rare case. I find muds, then I burn myself out on them, then I flip over to another mud, then to another, until I'm full circle back to the first one. the whole cycle usually takes about 2 months maybe 3. I enjoy playing clok, but I find myself burning out on the tasks and grinding. I like that clok is a grinding rp mud, where you can choose to either grind away the hours improving your skills, or you can rp them away doing whatever you like. The only trouble is that finding rp is not the easiest to accomplish. I know when I was a new player the thing that kept me playing were all the events, there seemed to be ones every other day. I'd love to see more player run rp, but it's a pretty daunting task. I was never a really good strong event roll player, I can roleplay my character fine, it's just putting him into situations where he can react that's the problem. I think maybe an example, maybe even a tutorial of getting some rp going that the gm's can get behind could go a long way. there's emoting, and the like, but it doesn't do any permanence, there's no lasting result from it, so I think maybe a list of things that could and could not be done woud also work. like, could a gang of thieves rob the banks? maybe, if they were skilled enough or something, but would the gm's back it up? would it even be recognized? or will they just be left emoting in an empty room lol. these are the kinds of things that prevent me from performing RP. I just don't know what would be recognized or not.