Entitlement and Banning

[Elystole]

Let's be clear about something: You aren't entitled to jack.

And if my saying that upsets you then this post is directed at you. So listen up.

No one here is entitled to CLOK. The GMs are not obligated to entertain you or anyone else. I find it pretty sad that our society is so permeated with an entitlement mentality that people can come here and act like they are owed something and that the GMs seem to believe it themselves. And to illuminate this concept, consider the following:

Rias is throwing a party at his house. You're invited to come over, hang out, and play games with everyone else. There's a pretty wide selection of games so take your pick, grab a couple of friends, and go at it. There's even some people helping to host the party. It should be a fun time for all, and at first it is because the people who show up are all friends. Well, as the party gets bigger, word spreads and you get a few party crashers. Some of these people are great, and the party picks up. Unfortunately, a few people are jerks.

And just like in any party, all it takes is a few jerks to ruin everything. They're loud and obnoxious, they throw fits when things don't go their way in the games, and a few of the nicer people start to leave because the party isn't fun anymore. They run into enough jerks at work. Some more hang on because things are really fun, but things aren't as fun and it's affecting their games.

At this point one of two things can happen: We can either throw the jerks out, or we can watch while the party dissolves as more people leave and eventually Rias decides the party isn't worth it and turns off the lights.

If CLOK was a real life party, first of all, people wouldn't be such jerks. It's just one of those quirks of the internet where anonymization meets minimal consequences. Second, we'd throw the jerks out.

We are all guests in Rias's house. So act like guests instead of petulant children. Even if you've built something cool in CLOK, you built it using Rias's blocks. At the end of the day, they still aren't your blocks, they are his blocks, and if he wants to do something else with them, he can. If it is time to put away one game, even your favorite game, and pull out another, it's time. If you really don't like it, you can leave the party. If one of the hosts wants to mix things up or adjudicate the rules, they can. That's why they are here, and some of those games you're playing are the ones they brought. Again, you're a guest, so if you don't like it you're free to leave.

And to the GMs, I ask this with the utmost sincerity: Start throwing people out.

If there is someone who makes you not want to GM or play, someone who just makes CLOK miserable, then please, please, please IP ban them. Throw them out of the party. Things like this kill games. They're cancerous as they drive good players out and wear staff down. All of the time spent extinguishing fires and dealing with "CLOK drama" is less time spent doing fun stuff.

If you have chat turned off all the time, why? If it is because of certain people, get rid of them. At the very least disable their chat.
If you aren't running events, why? If it is because of certain people showing up and spoiling things, get rid of them.
If you aren't coding, why? If it is because you're always busy dealing with certain people's drama, get rid of them.

If there is any significant amount of staff time spent babysitting or dealing with OOC drama, then the offenders need to be shown the door. They aren't contributing. They are slowly killing CLOK and you owe them nothing. There is absolutely no reason to tolerate their presence, and I'd much rather lose some bad players than lose GMs or good players.

[Lysse]

There's a lot of merit in this post. There was a term I used in my 'farewell post', explaining why I was taking my leave of Clok, and that term is "toxic OOC environment".

The MUD community is going to be what people make it, and if a select few are able to stomp their feet the hardest and yell the loudest, that will slowly poison the community, leading to a toxic environment.

Aside from what Elystole has advised to the GMs, I'm going to repeat some advice I gave on my lengthy post, for the MUD community as a whole.

Please be excellent to one another.

[faylen]

I agree with the general sentament of this post. I do think, however, that this kind of concept can be taken too far, so that people are afraid to do anything or say anything because they might get banned or punished. Many of us have come from those kinds of environments with power hungry, bitter admin who stomp all over the players they don't like and show massive favoritism to those they do. One of the major things that has kept me playing clok is the admin, and the lack of such an environment here.

This does not mean that I agree with all decisions that admin make. I don't, and I do have my moments of frustration. I've vented on channels and to others from time to time, and even here sometimes. The fact of the matter is, no one can please everyone in any group environment. It's simply not possible. Not to mention, nothing says the admin have to please the majority. So, if I've ever been a part of the general attitude that causes frustration for the admin, I offer my sincere apologies.

What I will also say is that if I do end up leaving clok, it likely won't be due to the admin, but due to a small handful of players. No, I have no immediate plans to do so, I'm still very much enjoying the game. However, I rarely turn on chat now, and I've been one of the biggest advocates for keeping it around! The reason why I keep it off is, honestly, people who choose to insult rather than give constructive criticism, pointless bickering, and certain people choosing to use karma to shut down others who are simply trying to help. A friend of mine saw something done that appeared ooc, tried to give constructive feedback on chat, and without a word said to her directly suddenly found herself karma'd out of chat. The only thing I can think of, unless karma is bugged, is that this person chose to ask his friends to karma minus her because, as he put it to me in tells, she needed to just butt out. So you have a situation where some people are insulting to the gms, and some who figuratively slap those who try to help give them constructive feedback. This coupled with some of the bickering does, indeed, lead to a toxic ooc environment that I have been slowly backing out of and it makes me sad.

This game is growing, and that's a positive sign. So how about we show some appreciation for the admin and for our fellow players, and behave as mature adults should. If not, we're going to likely end up with a mud like certain ones that many of us are familiar with and I doubt any of us want that.

[Avedri]

Negativity and hostility breed negativity and hostility. Same goes for elitist attitudes.

[Lavi]

I do agree with this post as well, and a lot with what Faylen has mentioned. However, I'd like to make a mention to the constructive criticism given on chat. I for one do not keep chat on because it drives me crazy when people give criticism, but do it in a tone that is neither constructive or helpful. I have complained on other MUDs about, what I like to call, the RP snob. A lot of people tend to become frustrated with the lack of RP a person is putting into something, or that the RP a character is engaging in isn't up to their standard. a person should strive to keep their characters as lively as possible; however, if they are doing something wrong consider your response. It is not helpful to say publicly, "I hate such and such when people RP." This statement isn't constructive; it is just saying, "I am annoyed and I wish they'd quit that." Many people do not come into RP MUDs as RP gurus. It takes time. Constructive criticism tries not to offend while addressing the issue. Also the person giving that criticism should always strive to stay away from things they criticize.

Unfortunately, many arguments are created because either a person does not take into account that people are new to RP and become the RP snob, or they become offended by actual decent criticism.
For this second group I'd like to say that we've all been there, and at times it's frustrating to do this, but most criticism will help you. I guess this is just an opinion; and I agree with everything, I just wanted to state what I've noticed.

[Laroremas]

I think "throwing people out" over something like being unable to voice complaints and give constructive criticism is probably worse than being unable to voice complaints properly and give constructive criticism. This is the sort of thing that truly ruins a game such as this, not any sort of lack of manners.

Furthermore, I haven't witnessed any significant "cancerous" or "toxicity" on OOC channels and whatnot, BBS included. Granted, I cannot play all of the time. I think any well adjusted adult should be able to handle what I have seen in game, however. I understand that it can be a bit frustrating dealing with those people at times, or even simply witnessing said people, but are they really THAT bad? Do they warrant a multi-paragraph reply essentially saying something they may already know, but may be unable to convey through text?

If there is someone who makes you not want to GM or play, someone who just makes CLOK miserable, then please, please, please IP ban them. Throw them out of the party. Things like this kill games. They're cancerous as they drive good players out and wear staff down. All of the time spent extinguishing fires and dealing with "CLOK drama" is less time spent doing fun stuff.

I've always found this sort of thread to be a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, contributing little more than stoking the fire. It gives people a platform to voice their melodramatic concerns in a grand and obtuse way, often with little purpose other than simply talking. Nothing constructive is accomplished, an extreme viewpoint is presented, and that platform is made use of in the way of repeating common (and often times false) viewpoints. From there, "drama" (I really hate using that word in this context, by the way) is "created".

I have found it very tempting over time to gripe about something like this in a way much like the one you've used in this thread, Elystole, though never in regards to CLOK it should be noted. Many of my written down thoughts upon reviewing them seemed very hateful and most importantly, not constructive. To give you an example, my initial reply to this thread was going to look something like:

"Stop being so melodramatic. Complaining about this accomplishes nothing, nor does reminding GMs what they can do."

Instead, I think it would be more helpful to point out the pretty obvious dichotomy with vaguely well constructed sentences. Let us take a look at a few examples.

If CLOK was a real life party, first of all, people wouldn't be such jerks. It's just one of those quirks of the internet where anonymization meets minimal consequences. Second, we'd throw the jerks out.

You have Clayton on Skype. If you really cared about this, or anything else, I might recommend actually calling him on Skype to eliminate a degree of that anonymity so you can discuss what you may feel his problem might be, instead of flaming him in the other thread. Not saying there is a problem with him, of course.

At this point one of two things can happen: We can either throw the jerks out, or we can watch while the party dissolves as more people leave and eventually Rias decides the party isn't worth it and turns off the lights.

Do your part to ensure this is a more enjoyable place. This isn't really the way to do that. If you would like some tips (apart from what may have already been said above), feel free to PM me and we can run down a list.

And just like in any party, all it takes is a few jerks to ruin everything. They're loud and obnoxious, they throw fits when things don't go their way in the games, and a few of the nicer people start to leave because the party isn't fun anymore.

There is a clear difference between a MUD and IRL, but you knew that. Don't get me wrong, I understand what it is you meant by presenting that hypothetical. However, there are countless ways for people to ignore other people who may make something not enjoyable for them on an OOC level. In the context of a MUD, however, it is safe to assume that these "nice people" are cognizant enough to figure out how to do just that. If it is a problem that exists IC, well, odds are they've had a pretty big hand in putting themselves in that situation, whether they like it or not and whether they are willing to admit it or not. In the rare situations where that may not be the case, it is not overly difficult to get in contact with a staff member to get that sorted out.

Anyone who leaves a game for the reason of "OOC toxicity" when there are avenues for them to completely remove themselves from that aspect have likely left for an entirely different reason altogether. Furthermore, anyone that tries to contest that is either lying to themselves or incapable of separation of out of character and in character mediums.

I suppose in short what I am trying to say is this:

- Show everyone respect.

- Be constructive.

- People come and go.

- People have opinions--you kind of have to just deal with that. If you deal with these people politely and in an informed manner, ultimately the lapse of communication will be mended and the experience is better for everyone.

- Outright banning people isn't the solution, tempting as it is.

If you have chat turned off all the time, why? If it is because of certain people, get rid of them. At the very least disable their chat.
If you aren't running events, why? If it is because of certain people showing up and spoiling things, get rid of them.
If you aren't coding, why? If it is because you're always busy dealing with certain people's drama, get rid of them.

GMs are also pretty capable of outright removing themselves from those aforementioned OOC mediums. I can say with the utmost confidence that none of them are in any way hindered by any of these things, and if they were, that they could handle those situations with a bit of finesse. No one disruptive person, or even a group of disruptive peoples have any hand in how much work may get done. Or so I hope.

If that is the case, well. It shouldn't be too hard to find someone to explicitly deal with those problems. But like I said, that probably isn't ever the case.

[jilliana]

Heavy stuff.
There has been more than just one player on Clok who has tendencies to be a bit entitled. We may see what we see as players, but it's the GM's that deal with the backlash of it all. If it leaks into the playerbase...it's up to them for them to keep it from going toxic. If it takes Rias to ban someone from chat or telling them to clean up their act, I would sincerely hope it gets done. As Elystole said, better to lose a few bad players then lose good GM's and good players. Some of us have seen games go down the drain the instant they go big because admins don't step up to the plate and drop the hammer to at least drive the point home to a few bad apples. If the bad apples decide that Clok isn't the life for them after all, they know where the door is.

With my previous point in mind...I'd like to add the following. I can understand that maybe from the admin perspective it can be a bit difficult to start dropping the hammer. It could easily become an "us versus them" situation, and that's when players and admins alike become unhappy. The thing Clok has going its way is that a lot of the players are grown adults who, if told no, will back off. The GM's know exactly what we don't, and I trust that at least Rias will deal with the situation accordingly since it's his "house" after all.

Yes, there are a few things about Clok that some of us really dislike, and if it comes to it, I'm going to hope that the GM's will at least take the time to listen with an open mind. I know I had a "whoa" moment when I read Elystole's post, but honestly? It had to be said. Someone had to say it, especially now with so many changes happening on a nearly constant basis. People are going to complain. People are going to be unhappy. Someone had to keep it real and cut the entitlement and the negativity off at the knees with a bit of reality.

[Drayla]

See, Jilliana just pointed out the issue here, but not entirely in the right way. With all changes comes input. Some people will praise the changes, some won't care, and some will complain. For some people, that complaining crosses the line into entitlement. But seriously, look at how many people we have playing on a regular basis right now. Do you know how many of them I think have entitlement issues? One. And that one person is okay most of the time. Is it annoying? Hell yes. Do I wish it would stop? Hell yes. Is it hindering the enjoyment I get from playing CLOK? Not at all.

Listen, I get the whole "A few bad apples spoil the bunch, so let's get rid of the bad apples" thing, but everyone's opinion of a "bad apple" is going to be different. And if you try to fix the problem in the wrong way, you just make another problem. To follow the trend of metaphors, a few bad apples spoil the bunch, but adding chemicals and pesticides can ruin the soil, ruin the water, and make the whole bunch poison. Banning would be like adding pesticides and growth hormones to a crop. Sure, you fixed the problem of the bad apples, but now you've caused even bigger problems. Banning due to issues of entitlement or just complaining too much or too loudly can make people afraid to voice their opinions. Opinions are the soil and the water to CLOK's apple tree. Take away people's ability to freely express their opinions without fear of being banned for them, and soon you'll have people leaving, until CLOK is barely struggling by with a few people playing every day.

And another thing: I do agree that the GMs need to be shown respect and thanked for their work every now and then. But I would also like to point out that, just like with any business where you create something for others to use, there are going to be praises, but mostly there are going to be complaints. For every compliment and "This is great!" you get, there are a thousand complaints and "Sure, it's nice, but..." out there. That's just the way it is, and as a GM, you pretty much have to either learn to live with it, leave, or become a dictator waving around the almighty ban hammer.

Like Lars said, there are plenty of tools available to ignore OOC things you don't like. Is CHAT getting on your nerves or interfering with your RP? Turn it off. Is one person ranting and raving? Karma - them and use the IGNORE command. Think KARMA is unfair and don't want to ignore someone because you don't want to miss something? Then grow a pair and deal with it. As for tge GMs, this sort of thing is a thankless job. Some of us are going to try to remember to thank you every now and then, but for the most part, no matter what you do, you are basically catering to a large group of very rude children who would rather go play with the new toy you gave them then take the few extra seconds to say "Thank you". I wish it wasn't this way, but it is, and nothing is going to change that anytime soon, if ever.

So my advice: Use the tools you already have at your disposal to cut out the people who annoy you, or suck it up and go on with your life. Don't take the game away from someone else who enjoys it just because you don't like the way they talk or complain. Try playing Monopoly with someone sometime, and see if you don't want to complain once things don't go your way.

[Acarin]

Would this be a good place to ask for a rocket launcher?

[Elystole]

People are confused if they think this is about what annoys me. I already turned chat off and I avoid people who annoy me, so I'm all set. I didn't even write this post with anyone in particular in mind.

What concerns me is that I am seeing clear signs of GM burnout, but the staff at CLOK are so nice that they aren't smacking people who deserve to be smacked. So I wrote this as a friendly reminder that disciplining people, including banning them, is okay and even necessary, and to draw out replies from the playerbase that show staff support. And there's a difference between constructive criticism and simply [witch]ing.

But I don't even know what all is going on behind the scenes. All I know is that GMs are unhappy and that bothers me.

Would this be a good place to ask for a rocket launcher?

Yes. But I want a giant frickin laser that does fire/light damage and illuminates the area.

[Laroremas]

If there is actually "GM burnout" stemming from the vocal minority let them voice their concern(s) here. Working on a game such as this entails a natural amount of burnout, and a lot of the times it doesn't come from players, but from lack of inspiration or drive to create. This is a natural thing. Addressing people who do not know how to constructively complain is just a convenient excuse to use in the grand scheme of things.

[Kiyaani]

Can we get a TL:DR going in this thread?

[Lun]

APRIL FOOOOLS

TL:DR Elystole thinks that the GMs are being too lenient, and if there are players ruining the game they should be removed. Then everyone's putting their opinion down, whether they think banning should be done or not.

My two cents: I think the GMs are often taken for granted, but they're people just like you or me (Or elaborate scripts, as it were) and we all have feelings and tingly bits that get tingly when things don't go our way. While constructive criticism is great, a lot of criticism of late has been only "Aw man, I don't like this change. Just... Make it back the way it used to be. Stat." So less constructive than it should be.

[Karasi]

I agree with Faylen. Completely. But I also agree in a less harsher way with Elystole's posts, and Jilliana's. There are consequences for actions, and while being kind to others is certainly of uppermost importance, paramount to any good game environment, being able and willing to discipline or step in where appropriate is, well, appropriate, and I would like it if admins did a little more of this, since it seems the players aren't capable of doing it ourselves.

And I feel afraid to post this next part, but here goes.

I have been hurt by people OOCly, and admins have not stepped in when I wished or felt they should. I keep chat off for several reasons, one of which is having been shot down by people who don't know how to communicate with me when they have a problem with something I've said.

Something said in this thread felt like a hidden jab at me personally, and I won't lie, that, too, hurt badly.
And this is not "poor me". This is, "I'm hurt, and I with people would be kinder toward each other."

I've heard of newbies being karmaed, when they had no idea what they'd even done wrong. This is wrong, and I feel must be stopped somehow.
The petty stuff also needs to be stopped somehow. And the reality with that is, no one is going to be happy with everything, every decision by admin, but the reality is that we don't run the game, they do. We come here hopefully, because we enjoy the atmosphere, people, RP environment, etc.

Drayla's analogy is very fitting--the apple tree. However, there comes a point when pruning has to take place, lest the entire tree die.

We're adults, most of us, and we need to act like it, and like we care about those around us.

I am tired of the petty, blown-over-the-top griping from people. I'm tired of being afraid to speak up for fear someone will send me to the corner like a bad little girl because I've said something that didn't make them feel good. I'm tired of trying to speak truth and help people and being shut down.
And I'm tired of the real trouble makers not being told that maybe they need to take some time away. Or heck, maybe they are the ones who need to be banned from chat, not the rest of us.

I have a better idea: Let's just ban chat altogether.

[Karasi]

I think it's entirely possible for burn-out to happen because of rude, sarcastic, snippy players. Completely possible. It's not an excuse.

A game's playerbase will send me packing if it's too abrasive, rude, etc, so why not admins?

[Laroremas]

I think it's entirely possible for burn-out to happen because of rude, sarcastic, snippy players. Completely possible. It's not an excuse.

A game's playerbase will send me packing if it's too abrasive, rude, etc, so why not admins?

Because not everyone thinks like this:

Something said in this thread felt like a hidden jab at me personally, and I won't lie, that, too, hurt badly. And this is not "poor me". This is, "I'm hurt, and I with people would be kinder toward each other."

Not everyone takes things to heart like that, especially when it is probably entirely unnecessary. I like to think I'm sampling the product of people who do not do this.

I think it would be helpful at this point to compile a list of sorts.

What I will also say is that if I do end up leaving clok, it likely won't be due to the admin, but due to a small handful of players.

Who are these small handful of players?

The reason why I keep it off is, honestly, people who choose to insult rather than give constructive criticism, pointless bickering, and certain people choosing to use karma to shut down others who are simply trying to help.

Who is doing this?

...explaining why I was taking my leave of Clok, and that term is "toxic OOC environment".

Who made it toxic for you?

However, I'd like to make a mention to the constructive criticism given on chat. I for one do not keep chat on because it drives me crazy when people give criticism, but do it in a tone that is neither constructive or helpful.

Who is doing this?

Unfortunately, many arguments are created because either a person does not take into account that people are new to RP and become the RP snob, or they become offended by actual decent criticism.
For this second group I'd like to say that we've all been there, and at times it's frustrating to do this, but most criticism will help you. I guess this is just an opinion; and I agree with everything, I just wanted to state what I've noticed.

It would be more helpful (and more efficient criticism) to cite specific instances instead of speaking generally.

Yes, there are a few things about Clok that some of us really dislike, and if it comes to it, I'm going to hope that the GM's will at least take the time to listen with an open mind.

Like what? Help them out here, instead of just speaking generally.

I am tired of the petty, blown-over-the-top griping from people. I'm tired of being afraid to speak up for fear someone will send me to the corner like a bad little girl because I've said something that didn't make them feel good. I'm tired of trying to speak truth and help people and being shut down.
And I'm tired of the real trouble makers not being told that maybe they need to take some time away.

1. The only blown-over-the-top griping I see from people in my year-long tenure of playing this game has manifested in this thread.

2. Who is making you feel as though you will be karma'd for voicing your opinion?

3. Who is shutting you down for speaking the truth?

4. Who are the "real trouble makers"?

I have a better idea: Let's just ban chat altogether.

Arguably the most constructive thing said in this thread.

In the end, it will be better for everyone if you (all of you) simply take the time to write down and remember these particular instances instead of speaking in a frustrating, general and vague way. Keep logs. Look back on them and recall precisely what it is that was bothering you.

Only then can something really get done about these things that are really troubling you.

[Jirato]

In regards to concern over GM burnout related to player actions, I'm sure I speak for the rest of the team when I say I appreciate the concerns. We do all indeed go through periods of burnout from time to time. Working on CLOK has been a great hobby for me, but as with any hobby, we always have other hobbies and other things going on in our lives that sometimes interfere with it. This isn't always directly related to player negativity, but it's also never a permanent thing. I want to assure you all that CLOK isn't going to die out due to staff abandoning it.

I understand the issues brought up in this thread, but really, we're capable of sucking it up and dealing with it. Yes, some players have more abrasive personalities than others. Yes, some people can be downright rude to us at times. Do they intend to, or is it just the way they voice their opinions with us? Perhaps I'm more of an optimist, but I'd like to think it's more often the latter rather than the former. Even if it wasn't, we're used to the occasional over-entitled player. We can still find valuable feedback buried beneath their demands from time to time.

We do consider all feedback carefully. Although sometimes it doesn't fit with our internal vision of the overlying system, so we dismiss it. This doesn't necessarily mean we're flat out ignoring the player and all past, present, and future feedback provided by them. It also doesn't mean that we "can't handle" them and are getting fed up to the point of not wanting to work on the MUD anymore.

Overall, I appreciate the concern and suggestions, but we're not about to bring out the banhammer for situations like this. If you're concerned over the GM team because of certain players, don't be. If you're not feeling like playing CLOK because of them, I'd like to kindly point out that there are methods to ignore a player OOCly.

With all that said, I feel that this thread has served its purpose and is now going beyond that into the area of attacking players for either their opinion on the matter or their OOC abrasiveness. I am going to suggest that we close this here to prevent any further negativity.