CLOK BBS

As a player, I derive some satisfaction and enjoyment out of wearing items that I've made myself. Elystole, as a hunter of sorts, is looking towards the day his equipment reflects his skill. However, as an explorer and outrider he has to keep his encumbrance down and I noticed after my most recent round of crafting that my encumbrance was far higher than it used to be. So I decided to look more closely at item weights...

First, containers. The backpack is what Faylen made for me when I was a newbie, and it isn't too bad weighing in at 2/3/4/2/2. But the rucksack weighs 6/5/6/6/6 and the haversack weighs 6/4/6/6/6. They weigh two to three times as much and, as far as I know, confer no mechanical advantage for that extra weight. Also, the haversack is size small but holds large items, and is back-worn when haversacks traditionally have a single shoulderstrap.

You carefully examine a well-crafted leather backpack...
The stiching and patterning on the backpack is quite nice.
You notice Faylen's crafting mark.
It is open.
It is a medium-sized item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the back.
It is a container that can hold items of a size up to 'large.'
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the backpack a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the backpack a few times, you figure it weighs 3 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the backpack a few times, you figure it weighs 4 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the backpack a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the backpack a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine an oiled leather rucksack...
The stitching and patterning on the rucksack is quite nice.
You notice Elystole's crafting mark.
It is open.
It is a medium-sized item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the back.
It is a container that can hold items of a size up to 'large.'
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the rucksack a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the rucksack a few times, you figure it weighs 5 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the rucksack a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the rucksack a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the rucksack a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine an oiled leather haversack...
The stitching and patterning on the haversack is quite nice.
You notice Elystole's crafting mark.
It is open.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the back.
It is a container that can hold items of a size up to 'large.'
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the haversack a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the haversack a few times, you figure it weighs 4 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the haversack a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the haversack a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the haversack a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

And then there's the clothing. The first is a hat I bought at Shadgard, and it weighs less than two pounds. The second is a hat someone bought me as a gift, and it also weighs less than two pounds. The third is a hat that Kyskie made for me, and it weighs less than two pounds. And finally there's the hat that I made, but it weighs 4/2/2/4/3 pounds. For comparison, that hat weighs more than the copper mail coif (3/2/2/2/4) and copper greathelm (2/2/2/3/2) that I bought at the Shadgard blacksmith shop. The rigid leather helm that I made weighs less than two pounds, so it looks like armor weights are correct.

You carefully examine a wide-brimmed leather hat...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the wide-brimmed leather hat.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the head.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the hat a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a wide-brimmed natural buckskin hat...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the wide-brimmed natural buckskin hat.
It is a small item, mainly made of buckskin.
It can be worn on the head.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the hat a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a short-brimmed black leather hat...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the short-brimmed black leather hat.
It is a small item.
It can be worn on the head.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the hat a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine an oiled leather hat...
The leather is strong and the stitching is even. This hat would also fit quite comfortably.
You notice Elystole's crafting mark.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the head.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the hat a few times, you figure it weighs 4 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the hat a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the hat a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the hat a few times, you figure it weighs 4 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the hat a few times, you figure it weighs 3 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

How about vests? The first is a vest that Kyskie made for me, and it weighs less than two pounds. Next is the vest that I made, and it weighs 3/6/5/2/5 pounds. At least it weighs less than armor, but it still weighs more than I'd expect clothing to weigh.

You carefully examine a gray and navy pinstriped silk vest...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the gray and navy pinstriped silk vest.
It is a small item, mainly made of silk.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the vest a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine an oiled leather vest...
The leather is strong and the stitching is even. This vest would also fit quite comfortably.
You notice Elystole's crafting mark.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the vest a few times, you figure it weighs 3 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the vest a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the vest a few times, you figure it weighs 5 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the vest a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the vest a few times, you figure it weighs 5 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

Let's look at boots. The first two pairs are store-bought boots Haiban and Ashdell that aren't armor. They weigh less than two pounds. The boots that Kyskie made me also weigh less than two pounds. I have a pair of loot boots that were given to me and they weigh 2/2/3/2/2. The boots that I made, which also aren't armor, weigh 2/3/2/2/4. For comparison, a pair of rigid leather boots that I made weigh 3/3/2/2/3, a pair of copper sabatons that I bought in Shadgard weighs 3/2/5/4/3.

You carefully examine some brown knee-high leather boots...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the brown knee-high leather boots.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the feet.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a bronze-buckled black leather boots...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the bronze-buckled black leather boots.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the feet.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a pair of polished black leather boots...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the polished black leather boots.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the feet.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a pair of stately crimson leather boots with bronze spurs...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the stately crimson leather boots with bronze spurs.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the feet.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 3 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine some oiled leather boots...
The leather is strong and the stitching is even. These boots would also fit quite comfortably.
You notice Elystole's crafting mark.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the feet.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 3 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 2 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the boots a few times, you figure it weighs 4 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

Boots aren't too bad, but shirts... All of my store-bought shirts and the shirt that Kyskie made me weigh less than two pounds. But the shirt that Faylen made me weighs 7/6/9/9/8 pounds.

You carefully examine a blue fitted linen shirt...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the blue fitted linen shirt.
It is a small item, mainly made of linen.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a gray long-sleeved linen shirt...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the gray long-sleeved linen shirt.
It is a small item, mainly made of linen.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a copper-buttoned dark blue linen shirt...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the copper-buttoned dark blue linen shirt.
It is a small item, mainly made of linen.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a silver-buttoned pale gray linen shirt...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the silver-buttoned pale gray linen shirt.
It is a small item, mainly made of linen.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a pristine white linen shirt...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the pristine white linen shirt.
It is a small item, mainly made of linen.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine a well-crafted deer fur shirt...
The leather is strong and the stitching is even. This shirt would also fit quite comfortably.
You notice Faylen's crafting mark.
It is a medium-sized item, mainly made of fur.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs 7 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs 6 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs 9 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs 9 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the shirt a few times, you figure it weighs 8 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

Coats are in even worse shape. I have a coat from the festival that weighs less than two pounds, and the coat that Kyskie made me weighs the same. But the longcoat that I made myself weighs 14/14/13/10/12 pounds (and it'd be nice if it was a container like the other coats). That's more than the rigid leather cuirass I made which weighs 13/12/10/11/12 pounds.

You carefully examine a weathered brown leather coat cinched at the front with two iron buckles...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the weathered brown leather coat cinched at the front with two iron buckles.
It is open.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the torso.
It is a container that can hold items of a size up to 'small.'
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the coat a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine an ankle-length black leather coat...
You see nothing particularly unusual about the ankle-length black leather coat.
It is open.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the torso.
It is a container that can hold items of a size up to 'small.'
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the coat a few times, you figure it weighs less than two pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine an oiled leather longcoat...
The leather is strong and the stitching is even. This longcoat would also fit quite comfortably.
You notice Elystole's crafting mark.
It is a small item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the torso.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the longcoat a few times, you figure it weighs 14 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the longcoat a few times, you figure it weighs 14 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the longcoat a few times, you figure it weighs 13 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the longcoat a few times, you figure it weighs 10 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the longcoat a few times, you figure it weighs 12 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

You carefully examine an oiled rigid leather cuirass...
This cuirass is symmetrical and quite sturdy so it would do well with both form and function.
You notice Elystole's crafting mark.
It is a large item, mainly made of leather.
It can be worn on the torso.
It is a protective garment, classified as rigid leather armor, and would afford the following levels of protection:
Rake: Extreme
Slash: Good
Pierce: Decent
Bludgeon: Great
Crush: Decent
Hack: Fair
It appears to be in good repair.
It appears to be of above-average quality.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the cuirass a few times, you figure it weighs 13 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the cuirass a few times, you figure it weighs 12 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the cuirass a few times, you figure it weighs 10 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the cuirass a few times, you figure it weighs 11 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

After hefting the cuirass a few times, you figure it weighs 12 pounds.
Roundtime: 3 seconds.

In summary, the container and clothing weights, especially the clothing weights, for leather items are way off. This sucks for anyone who wants to make things for themselves and others, but I imagine it is especially onerous for members of the Snowpine Lodge who are expected to be self-sufficient and make their own clothing. The differences between wearing my old storebought equipment and the stuff that I made myself is the difference between "You're not carrying too much, you should be able to move about fairly unburdened," and "You're feeling burdened by all the weight you're carrying."

This stems from the fact of each pelt weighing a full pound, and not accounting for any presumed trimming-down of materials and ... something. Armors are supposed to be heavier. I agree clothes should be a lot lighter. However, since the system is currently based on "you need x pieces to make something" and each piece weighs a pound, and each pound stays with the resulting item, we've got some heavy clothing pieces. The only way to currently make an item weigh a single pound is to have it require a single pelt, but we don't want people making coats from a single pelt, considering you can get a pelt from a raccoon.

So yeah, it's wonky for non-armor pieces, and not in a place we're currently satisfied with.

Why not make it require x weight in pelts and just set up more accurate weights on pelts? I mean, blacksmithing is based on needing x pounds of metal, isn't it? Why not tailoring, too? Or you could make pelts have a specific 'area' value which can be measured, and then base the weight off of that value and a sort of density value to track weight per square inch for a given material?

Rias wrote:This stems from the fact of each pelt weighing a full pound, and not accounting for any presumed trimming-down of materials and ... something. Armors are supposed to be heavier. I agree clothes should be a lot lighter. However, since the system is currently based on "you need x pieces to make something" and each piece weighs a pound, and each pound stays with the resulting item, we've got some heavy clothing pieces. The only way to currently make an item weigh a single pound is to have it require a single pelt, but we don't want people making coats from a single pelt, considering you can get a pelt from a raccoon.

So yeah, it's wonky for non-armor pieces, and not in a place we're currently satisfied with.

Well, why don't you make each pelt weigh 0.3 pounds instead of 1.0 pounds when they are tanned into a piece of soft leather? When tanned into Furs or Rigid leather - 0.4 pounds? Wouldn't that solve it?

Then you'd need more pelts to make armor. The required amount of pelts to make armor is a weight equal to that armor type/piece's standard weight. My gut tells me you wouldn't be happy with needing 2-3 times more pelts.

Rias wrote:Then you'd need more pelts to make armor. The required amount of pelts to make armor is a weight equal to that armor type/piece's standard weight. My gut tells me you wouldn't be happy with needing 2-3 times more pelts.

I honestly think that those of us who care about encumbrance wouldn't mind having to get more pelts per item just as long as in the end we're not heavily burdened.

jilliana wrote:

Rias wrote:Then you'd need more pelts to make armor. The required amount of pelts to make armor is a weight equal to that armor type/piece's standard weight. My gut tells me you wouldn't be happy with needing 2-3 times more pelts.

I honestly think that those of us who care about encumbrance wouldn't mind having to get more pelts per item just as long as in the end we're not heavily burdened.

Number of pelts isn't really a challenge once you have a bit of combat and skinning skill. With wolves dropping two pelts and bears dropping four, I usually leave the trail with over 60 pelts by time I need a new skinning lesson. I generally wind up with over 200 pelts after just a couple of hunting sessions, and then I spend hours tanning and crafting with those pelts before rats move in to my house since I have a workcart full of raw pelts. But I also don't know what it takes to hunt and skin drakolins, for example, and don't know how many pelts they drop and if that would make getting armor out of them prohibitive.

My approach right now is that leatherworking is wonky (it isn't just item weights) and the GMs know it is wonky, so it'll be fixed eventually but there are higher priority fixes that need to be resolved first. In the meantime, I'll keep grinding my skill up so that I can go on a leatherworking spree once it is fixed.

If you are not very combat savvy then I know plenty of people willing to sell you pelts. I am one of them. I think I have posted that on the boards MANY times and I rarely receive requests for any.

Rias wrote:Then you'd need more pelts to make armor. The required amount of pelts to make armor is a weight equal to that armor type/piece's standard weight. My gut tells me you wouldn't be happy with needing 2-3 times more pelts.

I'm not understanding this. Are you saying a store-bought soft leather cuirass weighs 15 pounds? Let me check right now (...pause...) no it's 10 pounds in the Shadgard Shop.

Why not conclude that a shirt is one layer of leather and a cuirass is three..so make a tanned soft leather piece weigh 0.75 pounds (15 pieces required for cuirass times 0.75 pounds per tanned piece of leather = 10 pounds).

A leather shirt should thus require only 5 pelts and weigh in at 3.33 pounds.

Is ten pounds perhaps a bit too much for a store bought cuirass anyway? Back when that number 10 pounds was assigned, encumbrance was irrelevant. Maybe 8 pounds would be closer to the truth for a soft leather cuirass? I never handled one IRL so I don't know. I do know soft leather is supposed to be thin and supple compared to rigid leather. As a soft leather cuirass provides little protection, I think it would be comparable to today's leather jacket with a bit of a quilted lining...definitely below 9 pounds.

I like my earlier suggestion of creating a spreadsheet that shows a weight grid of all items and an acceptable weight range for each. If such a spreadsheet existed, it would make the organization and proportions of items and their weights simple to manage and spot bugs.

Bumping this to see if leather armor, clothing and store-bought leather item weights can be checked again. Full sets of armor still seem really heavy considering the protection level they offer and how much they hinder both stealth and mobility skills like tumble.

Bullrushing this, the clothes are way too heavy!

I hate to sound like we're beating a dead horse, but leather is still really heavy and it's crazy cold outside.

And since I had to sink two ability points into crafting skills to be able to make soft leather goods, I'd really like to be able to make the most of that investment. It doesn't encourage me to take Advanced or Exotic when I can't even really use basic.

Guys?



Check it out! I totally forgot the Trello board existed.

Posted the day before I came back too with a bunch of other updates. Super stoked. I'm not sure why but I really enjoy leatherworking, so the wonky weights and fact that I kept getting mismatched pieces with weird adjectives was getting me down. I might celebrate by massacring some rare and majestic woodland critters.

Does anyone know what Jirato runs off of? We need to make sure he's stocked.

No idea. With Rias it was cookies.

preiman wrote:With Rias it was cookies.

Is.

If you want cookies, bug Jilliana. I might be able to do moose jerky and smoked salmon.

Oh I'm sure he still runs on them, but he doesn't matter anymore, it's Jelato we need to butter up now.

preiman wrote:Oh I'm sure he still runs on them, but he doesn't matter anymore, it's Jelato we need to butter up now.

I run off my GMs being happy. So he so does matter.

Preiman is generally a stand-up guy, so I assumed he was joking and didn't comment. Rias doesn't code anymore, but he still matters. So do all of the GMs who don't code.

Jirato wrote:I run off my GMs being happy. So he so does matter.

...Cookies for everyone? I'll get Jill right on that. What do people like?

Indeed I was joking. Actually made 2 batches this afternoon. Oatmeal raisin and these lemon cookies that are almost like meringues

I believe Rias has said he goes for the classic chocolate chip

I'll have...

Nevermind, I'm allergic.

Jirato wrote:

preiman wrote:Oh I'm sure he still runs on them, but he doesn't matter anymore, it's Jelato we need to butter up now.

I run off my GMs being happy. So he so does matter.

Did someone turn down cookies?

So yeah beating a dead horse a little here, but item weights are still almost prohibitive in many cases, I was wondering if a quick and dirty fix I came up with might work, at least in the short term .
I noticed while working with a GM to get items ready for the ball that many items auto update when looked at to adjust themselves to have the qualities the system thinks they should have and it got me thinking about leather. Would it be possible to just tell the system what something is supposed to weigh and then have it check during examination or creation and have it change something that is to light or heavy? I am by no means a coder, so have no idea if there is some reason this wouldn't work, but it would let us make clothing sets that didn't cause serious encumbrance, and player made leather would probably become drastically more popular.

Having recently made a greatcloak and seeing it took 14 pelts to do so, I didn't think it would literally translate to a fourteen pound greatcloak when I had finished with it.

After hefting the greatcloak a few times, you figure it weighs 15 pounds.

Hoo boy. That thing weighs almost as much as a platemail cuirass. That's just terrifying!

I see on the Trello that there's a clothing standardization in the works. Is this going to effect the armor and leatherworking as well?
I know that the GMs have a lot of things going around. A lot of the events and updates recently have been amazing -- it's been a great time for CLOK. But, is it possible to get perhaps a quick update or a peek behind the curtain? I love leatherworking. I'd like to use the new skinnable critters. And knowing where we are, and where we're heading with leather weights, would be very helpful. Even if the answer is simply "we're going to work on it, we're aware, but we can't say when yet," that's fine. I'd just love to see a nod at this issue.
Again, I'm absolutely loving all the things we've seen, and all the things in the works. Thanks for your time and energy!