Per the in-game announcement: "Trainers of leatherworking abilities can now be found in the tanneries of Shadgard and Corvus Outpost." (Corvus got a new NPC in their tannery for this purpose, hooray!)
Note that leatherworkers can use sinew in place of thread for leatherworking projects. That should get us by until we figure out how to introduce thread (and tailoring) into the game. And of course, people who like the look can continue using sinew for thread in leatherworked projects if they want even after we've got thread.
The abilities include:
- Leatherworking: Basics
- Leatherworking: Advanced Clothing
- Leatherworking: Basic Armor
- Leatherworking: Ridgeleather (currently only ridgeleather armor recipes and creation of spare ridgeleather pieces for repairs)
- Leatherworking: Scales (currently only scale armor recipes)
- Armorcraft: Brigandine (also available for tailors once that's ready)
- Armorcraft: Splint (also available for tailors once that's ready)
There are quite a few of them. This is to the purpose of requiring characters to invest in their craft and not have enough room to do literally everything, and have to make decisions on what to get and what to leave out in order to have room for other abilities such as combat or a different craft or utility, or whatever else.
The basic recipes should be spread out enough along the skill range to provide skillgains high enough to get the armor crafting abilities. Reminder that we're currently still in a heavy development state, and standard skillgain rates are one of the many things that are likely to be tweaked.
A fair number of recipes require things like buttons, buckles, and the like, so it would be wise to befriend people who can make those pieces for you. And to the people who can make those things: Do your part by stocking up the market!
As always, feedback is appreciated (be sure to post it here and not just let your thoughts disappear into the ephemeral void that is chat), and if you run into bugs please report them in-game with the BUG command or, if you believe it warrants discussion, here on the BBS.
P.S. Note that non-armor clothing made of leather is more durable than cloth! While I will continue to advocate the use of dedicated armor to anyone knowingly going out into combat, those who refuse to do so and instead want to rely on something like a jacket or duster may want to consider getting one made of leather so it at least lasts and provides (relatively) better protection for a little longer.
Leatherworking returns!
Leatherworking returns!
The lore compels me!
Re: Leatherworking returns!
Oh, regarding brigandine and splint: They're a little goofy due to their hybrid material nature. For now, brigandine is considered primarily leather and so is repaired by leatherworkers, while splint made with metal splints is considered primarily metal and so is repaired by metalworkers. Brig is medium-class armor while Splint is heavy-class, by the way.
P.S. More specifically: Splint's primary material is based on the material of the armor splints component. We could add wood or bone armor splints, which would result in splint armor of those materials as its primary material.
P.S. More specifically: Splint's primary material is based on the material of the armor splints component. We could add wood or bone armor splints, which would result in splint armor of those materials as its primary material.
The lore compels me!
Re: Leatherworking returns!
Some initial observations:
Skill gain appears to be pretty good. With an RPA going, and some training, managed to get leatherworking to 8 or so in a few hours. It looks that projects need a 70% success rate to produce sellable-quality goods (this is off limited testing with only loincloths) assuming one starts off with at least average quality pelts/furs. Based on availability of pelts, sinew, or time to gather those materials, it could stand to being increased a bit, I think. Or, barring that, adding skill gains for the "cut" portion, maybe at half-value (I haven't tried anything larger than a loincloth, yet, so I'm unsure if the cut step is the same across the board, or if there's more steps for larger pieces). I think "clean" should train skinning when that comes back - it's a single, 15 second step so gains would be minimal but help the overall feel of skinning training.
I'm not sure if Leatherworking is going to proceed along the same vein as Metalworking, I.e. Leatherworking: Basics only allowing one to repair leather goods at or above 80%, but anything more damaged than that requires ability investment to learn that specific "recipe".
With sinew being the only "thread" as of right now, I would suggest that large animals that normally produce sinew drop more than x2 pieces. Maybe four pieces (one for each leg).
Pelt sizes seem to be:
Tiny
Small
Medium (1 small, 1 tiny)
Large (2 smalls)
Huge (I'm guessing: 2 small, 1 tiny? Maybe 3 small pieces.)
All in all, so far I'm enjoying it (as far as grinding is enjoyable). I'd like to suggest a "patchwork" thing to use up Tiny leathers/furs, but since they can be sold to the market and used for repairing more damaged things (I'm assuming), it doesn't really make much difference. Maybe using tiny swatches to make something larger increases the difficulty of the worked upon recipe since you're juggling multiple items instead of one larger piece? Dunno.
Oh, and last bit, the sellable values of leatherworked goods seems to be spot on, if a little on the generous side. Where it sits now, it's pretty comfortable making two or three things and, if I successfully make them average quality, sell them to be able to buy more materials and have a little bit left over.
Will update with more as I keep playing with it.
Edited to Add: As the rolls are hidden, I'm not sure what all applies to them. That being said, it'd be neat if, for each ability learned, you get a passive partial "reroll" to your offense. This could probably be used across the board for crafting in general.
Also adding: It'd be nice if repairing would also train leatherworking, even at half-value. Same could be done for other crafting skills. Considering there will, eventually, be a penalty if you mess up (quality degradation, for instance) and ability invesments into being able to repair differing things, I think there is an argument for it at least having some skill gain.
Skill gain appears to be pretty good. With an RPA going, and some training, managed to get leatherworking to 8 or so in a few hours. It looks that projects need a 70% success rate to produce sellable-quality goods (this is off limited testing with only loincloths) assuming one starts off with at least average quality pelts/furs. Based on availability of pelts, sinew, or time to gather those materials, it could stand to being increased a bit, I think. Or, barring that, adding skill gains for the "cut" portion, maybe at half-value (I haven't tried anything larger than a loincloth, yet, so I'm unsure if the cut step is the same across the board, or if there's more steps for larger pieces). I think "clean" should train skinning when that comes back - it's a single, 15 second step so gains would be minimal but help the overall feel of skinning training.
I'm not sure if Leatherworking is going to proceed along the same vein as Metalworking, I.e. Leatherworking: Basics only allowing one to repair leather goods at or above 80%, but anything more damaged than that requires ability investment to learn that specific "recipe".
With sinew being the only "thread" as of right now, I would suggest that large animals that normally produce sinew drop more than x2 pieces. Maybe four pieces (one for each leg).
Pelt sizes seem to be:
Tiny
Small
Medium (1 small, 1 tiny)
Large (2 smalls)
Huge (I'm guessing: 2 small, 1 tiny? Maybe 3 small pieces.)
All in all, so far I'm enjoying it (as far as grinding is enjoyable). I'd like to suggest a "patchwork" thing to use up Tiny leathers/furs, but since they can be sold to the market and used for repairing more damaged things (I'm assuming), it doesn't really make much difference. Maybe using tiny swatches to make something larger increases the difficulty of the worked upon recipe since you're juggling multiple items instead of one larger piece? Dunno.
Oh, and last bit, the sellable values of leatherworked goods seems to be spot on, if a little on the generous side. Where it sits now, it's pretty comfortable making two or three things and, if I successfully make them average quality, sell them to be able to buy more materials and have a little bit left over.
Will update with more as I keep playing with it.
Edited to Add: As the rolls are hidden, I'm not sure what all applies to them. That being said, it'd be neat if, for each ability learned, you get a passive partial "reroll" to your offense. This could probably be used across the board for crafting in general.
Also adding: It'd be nice if repairing would also train leatherworking, even at half-value. Same could be done for other crafting skills. Considering there will, eventually, be a penalty if you mess up (quality degradation, for instance) and ability invesments into being able to repair differing things, I think there is an argument for it at least having some skill gain.
A shadowy wolf with luminous blue eyes emerges from the edge of the redwood grove, its stance and gait non-aggressive. Maintaining several yards distance, it sits. Several others begin to emerge from various points in the foliage around you, causing you to realize you have been surrounded. The first wolf stares at Vighon for many long moments, unmoving and unblinking, as the surrounding wolves remain still. Then the first wolf stands, turns, and heads back into the redwood grove. The surrounding wolves disappear back into the surroundings.
Re: Leatherworking returns!
On the subject of sinew, could we have it like in old CLOK where you could cut individual strands of sinew into multiple pieces for use? So an animal drops 1 sinew, and based on your skinning skill, you could cut it into more pieces for use in leatherworking goods. It just feels incredibly cruel to have to kill three large beasts to make a little pouch, LOL
Re: Leatherworking returns!
Yeah, I like leatherworking.
I'll admit that I'm mostly excited because now I have something to work on, it would appear recipes don't show unless you have the associated skill. In any case, I'm definitely loving working on leather.
I will. say though, I feel pretty bad about killing deer and elk for sinew. Like I understand why but I still feel bad about it because they're large and the only ones with sinew far as I know. Also, isn't this exactly what the Dunwyr wouldn't want to happen?
Perhaps smaller animals could also have sinew added? Presumably animals of all sizes have something connecting their muscles together. Just my thoughts.
I'll admit that I'm mostly excited because now I have something to work on, it would appear recipes don't show unless you have the associated skill. In any case, I'm definitely loving working on leather.
I will. say though, I feel pretty bad about killing deer and elk for sinew. Like I understand why but I still feel bad about it because they're large and the only ones with sinew far as I know. Also, isn't this exactly what the Dunwyr wouldn't want to happen?
Perhaps smaller animals could also have sinew added? Presumably animals of all sizes have something connecting their muscles together. Just my thoughts.
Re: Leatherworking returns!
On metal splints (and any other new metalworking recipes) - there still doesn't appear to be a way to raise Metalworking above 100. Is this an intentional limit, despite the demand for metal splints created by this addition?Rias wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 3:58 pm Oh, regarding brigandine and splint: They're a little goofy due to their hybrid material nature. For now, brigandine is considered primarily leather and so is repaired by leatherworkers, while splint made with metal splints is considered primarily metal and so is repaired by metalworkers. Brig is medium-class armor while Splint is heavy-class, by the way.
P.S. More specifically: Splint's primary material is based on the material of the armor splints component. We could add wood or bone armor splints, which would result in splint armor of those materials as its primary material.
Re: Leatherworking returns!
After some further tinkering :
1) Sinew, by itself, has to be processed to use it for threading. The ligaments are just too big naturally to use as thread as they are. I would like to suggest, then, that sinew needs to be crushed into "sinew fibers" with one sinew equaling ten fibers or a total based off the skinning skill (and provides some small skinning practice). These fibers can then be used towards leathercraft. Or, they can be woven together into cordage for bigger things (like ropes, slings, et cetera).
2) Allow us to harvest just sinew from animals without having to butcher the meat first. Additionally, or in lieu of, add sinew to smaller creatures with less meat. Anything with muscle can be harvested for sinew, after all, though the length of that piece of sinew will vary quite a bit. I don't know an elegant way to fix that except to throw it under the "game-ified logic".
3) Allow the use of leather lace as a thread alternative. Include a "lace cutter" in the workroom that allows one to take a large piece of tanned leather (not fur) and cut it into small, narrow strips to use. The lace cutter I have on my workbench at home is a small little thing that allows one to cut up to 16oz thick leather into two inch strips, then take that two inch strip and process it further into 1/8" laces. There's another tool I use to thin that thick leather down to something that is much more workable which results in 32 strips of "lace" from a single two inch piece of leather.
Of course, all this could go by the wayside with the introduction of actual threading, but I could still see this as a way for the more survivalist characters to keep things more rugged.
Keep up the good work!
Edited to add: I know you can purchase leather slings from stores, but I don't recall them ever being player craftable. There's a spot right between 300-350 that doesn't have anything in it. Could we get shepherd's slings (leather) to fill that spot at 325?
Sneaky wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 6:11 am On the subject of sinew, could we have it like in old CLOK where you could cut individual strands of sinew into multiple pieces for use? So an animal drops 1 sinew, and based on your skinning skill, you could cut it into more pieces for use in leatherworking goods. It just feels incredibly cruel to have to kill three large beasts to make a little pouch, LOL
These are both really good points. The availability of sinew is why I've stopped grinding leatherworking because V's not going to go out and kill a lot of animals for their sinew. This is largely for roleplaying purposes, and if I shelve that thought, it's still just a pain to go through the process of killing a lot of animals, butchering the meat just to get to the sinew. So, to answer that, I've brainstormed and come with a few suggestions.verel wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 6:22 am I will. say though, I feel pretty bad about killing deer and elk for sinew. Like I understand why but I still feel bad about it because they're large and the only ones with sinew far as I know. Also, isn't this exactly what the Dunwyr wouldn't want to happen?
Perhaps smaller animals could also have sinew added? Presumably animals of all sizes have something connecting their muscles together. Just my thoughts.
1) Sinew, by itself, has to be processed to use it for threading. The ligaments are just too big naturally to use as thread as they are. I would like to suggest, then, that sinew needs to be crushed into "sinew fibers" with one sinew equaling ten fibers or a total based off the skinning skill (and provides some small skinning practice). These fibers can then be used towards leathercraft. Or, they can be woven together into cordage for bigger things (like ropes, slings, et cetera).
2) Allow us to harvest just sinew from animals without having to butcher the meat first. Additionally, or in lieu of, add sinew to smaller creatures with less meat. Anything with muscle can be harvested for sinew, after all, though the length of that piece of sinew will vary quite a bit. I don't know an elegant way to fix that except to throw it under the "game-ified logic".
3) Allow the use of leather lace as a thread alternative. Include a "lace cutter" in the workroom that allows one to take a large piece of tanned leather (not fur) and cut it into small, narrow strips to use. The lace cutter I have on my workbench at home is a small little thing that allows one to cut up to 16oz thick leather into two inch strips, then take that two inch strip and process it further into 1/8" laces. There's another tool I use to thin that thick leather down to something that is much more workable which results in 32 strips of "lace" from a single two inch piece of leather.
Of course, all this could go by the wayside with the introduction of actual threading, but I could still see this as a way for the more survivalist characters to keep things more rugged.
Keep up the good work!
Edited to add: I know you can purchase leather slings from stores, but I don't recall them ever being player craftable. There's a spot right between 300-350 that doesn't have anything in it. Could we get shepherd's slings (leather) to fill that spot at 325?
A shadowy wolf with luminous blue eyes emerges from the edge of the redwood grove, its stance and gait non-aggressive. Maintaining several yards distance, it sits. Several others begin to emerge from various points in the foliage around you, causing you to realize you have been surrounded. The first wolf stares at Vighon for many long moments, unmoving and unblinking, as the surrounding wolves remain still. Then the first wolf stands, turns, and heads back into the redwood grove. The surrounding wolves disappear back into the surroundings.
Re: Leatherworking returns!
First, a huge thank you for introducing this so soon after the combat abilities, awesome!
I agree about the sinew. It's a great addition since we don't have thread, but forces characters to be pretty wasteful if they want to practice.
Quality needs some work though. My udemi has a leathercrafting skill over 700. I'd expect her to get average more often than not when working with average or better pelts. However today, an attempt to make three cuirasses ended up doing this.
1. Scale cuirass, terrible quality
2. Jaguar fur cuirass, crude quality
3. Cougar fur cuirass, cheap quality
The last two were for a customer too. With her skill level, this seems silly and IC made it look like she's brand new at this. Also the last one was with morale around 3.5. Since we can't see rolls I'm not really sure what happened or what the limits are, but it needs some definite tweaks. I know 700 compared to 2500 is not fantastic, but if the idea is to encourage people not to always go to the best every time, well...
I've had successes on smaller items, so it may be the ones that take longer to make that are a bit out of balance. Not sure.
I agree about the sinew. It's a great addition since we don't have thread, but forces characters to be pretty wasteful if they want to practice.
Quality needs some work though. My udemi has a leathercrafting skill over 700. I'd expect her to get average more often than not when working with average or better pelts. However today, an attempt to make three cuirasses ended up doing this.
1. Scale cuirass, terrible quality
2. Jaguar fur cuirass, crude quality
3. Cougar fur cuirass, cheap quality
The last two were for a customer too. With her skill level, this seems silly and IC made it look like she's brand new at this. Also the last one was with morale around 3.5. Since we can't see rolls I'm not really sure what happened or what the limits are, but it needs some definite tweaks. I know 700 compared to 2500 is not fantastic, but if the idea is to encourage people not to always go to the best every time, well...
I've had successes on smaller items, so it may be the ones that take longer to make that are a bit out of balance. Not sure.
Re: Leatherworking returns!
I think a large portion of this comes from the uncertainty around successes and failures, i.e. there's nothing during the rolls to denote one way or another. Something I was thinking about earlier while doing a bit of grinding is: What if there was a message that was echoed to the player about it? It'd work across the board for all crafting and give players an idea of what to expect.Adresin wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 10:57 am The last two were for a customer too. With her skill level, this seems silly and IC made it look like she's brand new at this. Also the last one was with morale around 3.5. Since we can't see rolls I'm not really sure what happened or what the limits are, but it needs some definite tweaks. I know 700 compared to 2500 is not fantastic, but if the idea is to encourage people not to always go to the best every time, well...
I've had successes on smaller items, so it may be the ones that take longer to make that are a bit out of balance. Not sure.
For some examples:
-90 to -50 : You botch the attempt and work at repairing your mistakes.
-50 to -25: You flub the attempt and go back over your work.
-25 to 0: You seem to be having a rough time getting into the flow of your work.
1 to 25: You slowly plod on, making a bit of progress.
25 to 50: You're moving right along with your project, everything going smoothly.
50 to 90: You seem to be making great strides with your project, moving right along.
90 to 100: Everything seems to click in place while you work, making your progress a breeze.
These are just ideas for various endrolls, but you get the point. Something that states that you've succeeded or failed, but also how well (or not!) you've done for that particular attempt. Perhaps a sort of inspiration bonus could be included for particularly high successes that grants a partial or full re-roll for a short while.
A shadowy wolf with luminous blue eyes emerges from the edge of the redwood grove, its stance and gait non-aggressive. Maintaining several yards distance, it sits. Several others begin to emerge from various points in the foliage around you, causing you to realize you have been surrounded. The first wolf stares at Vighon for many long moments, unmoving and unblinking, as the surrounding wolves remain still. Then the first wolf stands, turns, and heads back into the redwood grove. The surrounding wolves disappear back into the surroundings.
Re: Leatherworking returns!
I told a few people I'd be giving my feedback on leather working so here I am.
I like doing it. It's super fun and the process is cool enough for me to want to continue with it.
That being said, I feel like there's something going on with leatherworking at the moment. I have 200 skill, a little over that, don't want to give the exact number since that's against the rules. Anyway, literally 90 to 95% of the time, my stuff turns out crude or cheap. I totally understand that 200 is not 2500 in terms of skill level. But I feel like at least some of my stuff should be average at least. I can count the number of average items I've made on one hand. It's very frustrating.
Now, you might be asking yourself why I'm complaining about this? Get good, it's a skill issue. Just be better at leatherworking and stop complaining.
It wasn't like this before. The cap was 2500 in old Clok just the same as it is now. At 200 leatherworking, I was able to make mostly average items and very rarely a quality item with a lot of work. I'll grant that 200 leatherworking is still somewhat novice. But is it seriously so bad that literally 90% of my items are crude and/or cheap, especially when I'm making items that increase skillgain but the same results happen even if they're easier recipes too? It just seems like this issue should be adjusted to reflect the actual amount of skill you have. I'm not new at this, after all. I put in lots of hours to get as far as I did. I will grant that I still have plenty to go. But for my items to basically all be crude or cheap with very few exceptions and for my character to lose riln on supplies to make stuff when it'll be worthless 90 to 95% of the time is a little unfair.
Just my thoughts.
I like doing it. It's super fun and the process is cool enough for me to want to continue with it.
That being said, I feel like there's something going on with leatherworking at the moment. I have 200 skill, a little over that, don't want to give the exact number since that's against the rules. Anyway, literally 90 to 95% of the time, my stuff turns out crude or cheap. I totally understand that 200 is not 2500 in terms of skill level. But I feel like at least some of my stuff should be average at least. I can count the number of average items I've made on one hand. It's very frustrating.
Now, you might be asking yourself why I'm complaining about this? Get good, it's a skill issue. Just be better at leatherworking and stop complaining.
It wasn't like this before. The cap was 2500 in old Clok just the same as it is now. At 200 leatherworking, I was able to make mostly average items and very rarely a quality item with a lot of work. I'll grant that 200 leatherworking is still somewhat novice. But is it seriously so bad that literally 90% of my items are crude and/or cheap, especially when I'm making items that increase skillgain but the same results happen even if they're easier recipes too? It just seems like this issue should be adjusted to reflect the actual amount of skill you have. I'm not new at this, after all. I put in lots of hours to get as far as I did. I will grant that I still have plenty to go. But for my items to basically all be crude or cheap with very few exceptions and for my character to lose riln on supplies to make stuff when it'll be worthless 90 to 95% of the time is a little unfair.
Just my thoughts.