CLOK BBS

Right now from looking into Rooks and Claw, I am left wondering what the limits of Nether are. The list seems to be increasing but I don't know where the limit is.

Currently nether..
>Increases stealth checks
>Gives nightvision
>Enhances body movement
>Controls light levels
>Creates Illusions
>Enhances natural attacks beyond flares
>Steals energy
>Creates protective shields
>Creates a poison like effect
>Creates additional lifeforms

Is this an example of how wide a single magical ability is supposed to be, or is it supposed to be the exception to the rules for one reason or another?

(If you must know, I am not asking to nerf nether, quite the opposite. Once I know the wide utility of Nether I would like to increase the utility of Elemantal abilities of the five other Mancy, all things being fair)

I'm a little curious as to how Sorcery crafts illusions myself. I understand the control of light levels, but how it can be used for actual illusions seems a bit confusing to me.

[quote=Nootau]Currently nether..
>Increases stealth checks
>Gives nightvision
>Enhances body movement
>Controls light levels
>Creates Illusions
>Enhances natural attacks beyond flares
>Steals energy
>Creates protective shields
>Creates a poison like effect
>Creates additional lifeforms

[/quote]
Let's go down your list:

- It doesn't increase someone's stealth ability. It is dark/black/shadowy, and thus makes for good camoflage.
- It can cause eyes to be very sensitive to light, damaging them in the process.
- It feeds on blood, which enhances its potentcy.
- It doesn't control light. Shadow Orb increases darkness, and concentrates shadows and that can help darken an area. That's an important distinction.
- It doesn't create illusions (at least not like wavebending). It is used as a distraction by the Claw.
- I'm not sure what you mean.
- It does not steal energy, it destroys it.
- When used with cryomancy, it can become more solid in form. See Rasui's cryomancy shield research.
- It's destructive, but I don't know where you're getting this one from.
- It can be used to animate dead lifeforms, or create demonic flesh that can then also be animated. It doesn't 'create life' it mimics it.

Your idea of how Nether works is a bit skewed, and your blanket statements don't cover the details and take a lot of the Lore out of context. Sorcerery requires stuff like blood, energy and soul shreds to use. Elemancy has no such requirement aside from the energy to channel it.

Also, it will never be anything like Elemancy, nor will Elemancy ever be like Nether. They are completely different, and come from completely different origins. Elemancy is based on the elements, and their power and limitations. Nether is not an element, and as such has very different limitations, powers and effects.

You are effectively comparing a unique magic system, to a magic of elements. Those are different realms entirely.

I think you need to get past this idea that every guild and every magic system should have a comparable ability to one another. If that were the case this game would be exceptionally boring.

So, let's go down the list again:

- Elemancy wouldn't be able to control or assist in how well someone can hide. Unless a Geomancy buried himself in mud and dirt, but that'd be pretty silly. "Hey look, a big pile of rocks, I bet someone is going to jump out of it!" Not so much.
- Pyromancy isn't going to be able to effect your eyesight, unless you plan to burn your eyeballs out of your sockets.
- The elements can't control a body, or your body. Elemancy is not spiritual in nature, it's elemental.
- Pyromancy does help control light levels. That is something that the elements effect!
- Elemancy probably could create some interesting illusions or distractions via explosions, flashes of fire, etc.
- You already get flares on your natural attacks by attacking.
- Elemancy can't steal energy. Neither can Sorcery (at least not directly).
- Elemancy can already create protective shields.
- Elemancy can also create a 'poison' effect. It's pretty uncomfortable to have water shoved down into your lungs, or to have acid coating your skin. But neither sorcery, nor elemancy works like the venom of a basilisk, for example.
- Elemancy can't create lifeforms or animate, but an earth golem, or something might be an idea. Though Rias doesn't like these ideas because they would require some sort of spiritual background to justify how you control these beings, and how they actual 'live'.

I'm pretty sure Rooks can steal energy via the Essence Leech spell.

[quote=KianTheArcher]I'm pretty sure Rooks can steal energy via the Essence Leech spell.[/quote]

Eh, true I forgot about that one. However the majority of the energy stolen never makes it to the caster and is destroyed. The ability is meant to weaken or kill a target without damaging the body rather than an energy stealing ability.

Again, that isn't something Elemancy would ever be able to achieve.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Elemancy is ruled largely by the phyiscal realm, while Nether transcends the physical and spiritual, making the its potential a lot different than that of Elemancy.

As you can see, nether is extremely versatile. This has always been stated as one of sorcery's major advantages. It's by design and intent that sorcery is far more versatile than any other method of channeling.

I know people like nowing the precise limitations and metaphysical properties of things, but nether is one thing that players are never going to have complete knowledge of, as far as its basic properties, behavior, and limitations. The GMs discuss these matters, but in the case of nether, they're not all going to be revealed to players.

The same goes for thaumaturgy and druidry. Consider that nether, thaumaturgy, and druidry have no real-world counterparts that we can use to explain them, unlike elements and wavebending, which are based heavily on real-world concepts. They're unique to the CLOK world and work differently than anything in our own real world. They still have specific methods, properties, limitations, and so forth, but even to us GMs some things can remain odd or insufficiently explained as to how exactly they do work, simply because we have nothing in the real world to compare them to and help explain them.

According to the Rook Parlour, Essence Leech works by creating a bubble around a portion of the target's blood and soul. While much of this is destroyed as the bubble containing it travels back along the tendril, what remains at the end is transferred to the sorcerer in the form of energy, similar to consuming a soul shred. You could call it a crude, brute force form of consuming a soul shred from a living target.

As a last note, I might refer to nether as an anomolous substance rather than dark spiritual energy, as the latter can be misleading. Thaumaturgy is often considered spiritual energy, but the very concept of "spiritual" is theoretical and often varies from person to person as to what it actually means. Referring to nether as spiritual would foster the erroneous idea that nether and thaumaturgy are opposites of the same energy or substance. Nether also has physical properties and form.

[quote=Landion]- It doesn't increase someone's stealth ability. It is dark/black/shadowy, and thus makes for good camoflage.[/quote]Shadow Cloak, in the wiki, says that it increases the stealth ability, not that it lowers the penalty to stealth in a room. Is this wrong?
[quote=Landion]- It feeds on blood, which enhances its potentcy.
[/quote]It feeds on blood, so would that allow Pyromancy to use fuel sources to increase its potency?
[quote=Landion]- It doesn't control light. Shadow Orb increases darkness, and concentrates shadows and that can help darken an area. That's an important distinction.
[/quote]I never said it control light, but light levels.
[quote=Landion]- It doesn't create illusions. It is used as a distraction by the Claw.
[/quote]Shadow Step, in the wiki, says it creates Illusions. Is this wrong?
[quote=Landion]- I'm not sure what you mean.
[/quote]Nether hands, it enhances unarmed combat beyond which a sorceric nether flare would.
[quote=Landion]- It does not steal energy, it destroys it.
[/quote]Essence Leech steals energy from one body and takes it to another.
[quote=Landion]- When used with cryomancy, it can become more solid in form. See Rasui's cryomancy shield research.
[/quote]Without Cryomancy it becomes a shield in the form of Shadow Martyr.
[quote=Landion]- It's destructive, but I don't know where you're getting this one from.
[/quote]Infused Nether allows raw sorcery casts to have a damage over time element in addition to its normal base damage.
[quote=Landion]- It can be used to animate dead lifeforms, or create demonic flesh that can then also be animated. It doesn't 'create life' it mimics it.[/quote]What does a familiar mimic, the wiki says it is a spawn of the caster's very soul.

[quote=Landion]Your idea of how Nether works is a bit skewed, and your blanket statements don't cover the details and take a lot of the Lore out of context. Sorcerery requires stuff like blood, energy and soul shreds to use. Elemancy has no such requirement aside from the energy to channel it.[/quote]Nether Raw casts, like Elemancy raw casts cost nothing other than energy. The shielding ability Sorcery uses only uses energy not souls. In fact very few abilities Rooks use, cost soul shreds. Very few sorceric abilities cost blood as well. Can you tell me where Sorcery costs blood and soul shreds to channel?

[quote=Landion]Also, it will never be anything like Elemancy, nor will Elemancy ever be like Nether.[/quote] I never asked them to be the same or similar. I asked about how various the uses can be, nothing more.

[quote=Landion]Nether is not an element, it is based on dark spiritual energy, and as such as VERY different limitations, powers and effects.[/quote] Which is why I am asking its limit. I did not ask for any ability to be removed or changed.

[quote=Landion]I think you need to get past this idea that every guild and every magic system should have a comparable ability to one another. If that were the case this game would be exceptionally boring.[/quote]If every guild has an equal number of pros and cons, as well as each power selection, I do not call that boring, I call that balance.

[quote=Landion]So, let's go down the list again:[/quote] I never said, or suggested that the Elements should do anything on the list of things that Sorcery can do.

Nootau, read Rias' post.

I did, and from his post I now know, I won't be told the limits. I simply continue to offer ideas to bolster the ranks of Elemental Utility while paying little heed to the advancements and/or questions of other magical sources.