CLOK BBS

I am a bit worried about the recent change that makes workcarts unable to fit through doorways. I understand the realism of workcarts not being allowed to squeeze through doors, but there are a few flaws with this change. My first concern is that there are thieves in this game, if as trader has to leave a workcart filled with weapons they just purchased there is nothing stopping a thief or a passer by from unloading these items and leaving an empty work cart without a hitch. I think that places like the barracks, where traders receive orders to deliver weapons quite often, should have a delivery entrance or the doorway should be made wide enough to accommodate delivery carts.

I had just bought a warhorse and was going to take my first stab at mining but the patch notes say you can't hook up wagons to them anymore as well. So far I've noticed a lot more cons to having a horse (i.e. not able to utilize any of my class abilities, energy and time requirement for mount/dismount, not gaining skills when fighting superior creatures in some cases due to the mount bonus, stable costs) and this last one feels fairly unrealistic in that a trained horse would disobey so blatantly. Perhaps having riding skill at a certain level would allow for these types of maneuvers.

Methiur wrote:I had just bought a warhorse and was going to take my first stab at mining but the patch notes say you can't hook up wagons to them anymore as well. So far I've noticed a lot more cons to having a horse (i.e. not able to utilize any of my class abilities, energy and time requirement for mount/dismount, not gaining skills when fighting superior creatures in some cases due to the mount bonus, stable costs) and this last one feels fairly unrealistic in that a trained horse would disobey so blatantly. Perhaps having riding skill at a certain level would allow for these types of maneuvers.

Elystole has a good explaination for this over here: viewtopic.php?p=18475#p18475
For easy reference, I quoted the relevant bit here.

Elystole wrote:[...]
It takes a lot of work to turn prey animals aggressive, and you have to maintain that conditioning. Warhorses would only be ridden to patrol the grounds or to battle so that the animal knew that anytime it was saddled there might be a fight. You'd never ride a warhorse on a joyride and you'd never tell it to pull a load. [...]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Temperament
I can confirm most of this from experience or other research, but the write-ups were pretty good for a quick intro to the different temperaments.[...]

To address Methiur's horse comments:
You bought a WAR horse, not a draft horse. A horse for combat. If you wanted a riding horse or a draft horse, purchase the 5000 riln version, or the "working man's horse" to hitch a wagon up to it.

Not able to utilize class abilities (adrenaline rush): You're trampling an enemy on top of your horse, you're not doing any real work yourself and wouldn't get an adrenaline rush.

Energy and time requirement for mounting: The higher your riding is, the smaller and smaller the RT for mounting becomes, until it's either 1 second or none. Gad would know more about that than me.

Not gaining skills due to mount bonus: Skill gains have always been a roll vs roll deal. IF you roll too high, you're not going to get any skillgains. If that's a problem, get off your horse.

Not being able to hitch to a wagon: Training for civilian usage and training for draft work for horses are very different in real life. Back in WWI, officers warhorses and draft horses for pulling cannons and wagons and the like were, as they are in CLOK, two different breeds of horses trained for different tasks.

I'd just like to point out that warhorses have been used to pull artillery and chariots for thousands of years. I'd also like to point those who believe the same horse can't do multiple tasks to such works of fiction as War Horse and Black Beauty. Sure it's fiction, but it's also accurate. There is no reason for a warhorse to not be trained in both melee combat and pulling a load. I do think it's reasonable that while pulling a load you can't charge or trample though.

Oh, and let's also remember, this is a game meant to be enjoyed. I don't think we need to make people swap horses all the time just to pull a wagon, especially now that horses are more flighty to begin with. You would want a horse trained not to bolt hauling your load.

I'd agree with Kiyaani. I think Elystole's post is great and there should be benefits to using a specialized horse but saying a warhorse can't be hitched is kind of silly.

Also, you don't get adrenaline rush for charging either. I am pretty certain you can't disarm or feint but I can't remember. I have left my warhorse in the stable and I am not sure when I'll ever need it. :(

Yeah! I'm glad the only person qualified to speak about horses posted.

Speaking to the OPs topic, workcarts are not for storage. They're for transporting large amounts of "stuff", when you're working. If you want to store items, put them in the bank, or a house if you own one.

Is that inconvenient? Probably.
Is that fair? I think so.
If you have enough stuff that you're using a workcart to move it, a thief realistically wouldn't be able to steal much if you leave the room to do something, unless you're just logging off and leaving the cart full of your stuff.

I have to agree also with Kiyaani and Methiur. The game took a downturn when warhorses couldn't be hitched.

What's aggravates it is the mechanic that does not allow your following draft horse to stay connected to you when you lead it, ie, when you want to ride your warhorse and lead your draft horse that's pulling the wagon. About 50% of the time, you get, 'A draft horse was unable to follow you'. You have to go back to the previous room, then lead draft horse, then try again. The game would take an upturn if this aggravating mechanic was changed so that you travel automatically the same speed as your followers and don't get disconnected.

Furthermore, it would be better if an entirely different mechanic than the 'lead' be used for horses and minions. If I am leading my horse, I should also be able to 'join' the patrolman or sentry without being fouled up with conflicting 'lead' group mechanics.

Jaster wrote:Speaking to the OPs topic, workcarts are not for storage. They're for transporting large amounts of "stuff", when you're working. If you want to store items, put them in the bank, or a house if you own one.

Is that inconvenient? Probably.
Is that fair? I think so.
If you have enough stuff that you're using a workcart to move it, a thief realistically wouldn't be able to steal much if you leave the room to do something, unless you're just logging off and leaving the cart full of your stuff.

I hear what you are saying! As a new player the first thing other players said over and over again, is don't leave your workcart unattended because if someone takes it then that's gonna be your lost! Now, this feature has been implemented that doesn't allow me to keep my workcart with me. If Master Locke is requesting that I bring nine flails to the barracks, well, I can only carry two of them at a time. I am not carrying things around with me for my leisure, but I am working! This could play out exactly as follows, and it has happened to me before, when I didn't know any better! I could remove two flails, walk into the barracks, then, in Irwin's office, give him the flails, walk out the office, out the barracks, and guess what! My workcart is gone! Not just those expensive weapons, but the whole freaking workcart! So then what! I understand that stealing is realistic, but in real life you aren't forced to leave your car unlocked for anyone to just open your door and help themselves! I don't have a problem with change because in many cases change is good, but this specific change places traders and other guild employees at the mercy of the dishonest members of society! I believe that these places that are slotted to receive large loads of items that can't be carried in a bag or basket of some kind, then, the doors should accommodate the cart or a delivery entrance should be added. No player in the game would like if they had to physically carry each log, flitch or cant from their wagon or cart into the market to be sold!

In this situation, I would suggest you take IC routes to report the theft of your workcart full of goods so that you can possibly identify the person who stole it and bring them to justice (whatever that may be for you.. turning them in for theft.. murdering them.. hiring Spearhead to murder them..).

There ARE NPCs around that most likely would have seen someone lugging your workcart away, particularly in a highly populated area. Yes, theft is real, but so are witnesses. Just because there are no named NPCs in a room does not mean there are NO NPCs in a room. Any person in a crowd is a potential witness, even if you have to do a little bit of IC work to reveal them.