Cryomancy

[KianTheArcher]

[quote=hadesfire]How do you throw heat dispersion? I always thought it was a complicated form of cold, able to push heat away from it's radius of effect. If i'm wrong, then the character should have to form it at the location of attack.[/quote]


The raw cast of Wavebending is similar to this. It's not an actual projectile, but it's a burst of light and sound in a target's face. It still uses marksmanship though.


[quote=hadesfire]Then wouldn't it make sense if Cryomancy created a ball of something like dry ice, but colder, it is EXTREMELY cold and has an aura of cold. If dry ice was able to push away heat, it would seem more like cryo to me.[/quote]

That's why it's just a lack of heat in a confined area, instead of a physical object such as ice.

[hadesfire]

when you raw cast, doesn't say that you throw a ball of something or other? That makes no sense, wavebending actually says it's a flash and a bang but cryomancy says it's thrown.

[KianTheArcher]

You hurl a transluscent blue orb at a red fox.
A transluscent blue orb surges toward a red fox. (R:101 vs D:250)
10 cold damage to the right hind leg!

It's a blue orb, not actual ice.

But the idea is hadesfire, is that instead of being an orb based projectile it could be a direct snap of cold at a target. It would still use marksmanship and could be dodged just like Flashbang.

[hadesfire]

Yeah, i'm agreeing with you. I'm a rediculously logical person at times.

[Acarin]

[quote=Nootau]Pyromancy does not create heat to damage a target, it creates a flame to burn a target. Cryomancy does not produce a liquid that freezes a target, not a mist to chill a target, it is a direct dispersion of heat from an area.[/quote]

Hmmm. What is fire made out of? Lets ask wikipedia:

"Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material in the exothermic chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products. The flame is the visible portion of the fire. If hot enough, the gases may become ionized to produce plasma. Depending on the substances alight, and any impurities outside, the color of the flame and the fire's intensity will be different."

How is the flame (and the heat that causes the damage) something more physical than what would need to be produced by cryomancy? I view the blue orbs that are formed by cryomancy as essentially cold flames (There's an extremely rapid endothermic process going on inside the sphere, much like a flame with heat, only with energy tranfer in the opposite direction).

[Nootau]

In Clok, Pyromancy makes flame from the Elemancer's willpower, not a fuel source. Elemancy does not have a source or a fuel other than the Elemancer himself, once his focus lapses the elements created disappear until they leave a lasting mark to a surface. Pyromancy's flames, Hydromancy's water, Aeromancy's wind, and Geomancy's soil/rock all are forged from the will of the elemancer disappear after a casting even through they were once physical.

Cryomancy, unlike Elemancy, does not create anything. As Rias himself has said, it only disperses heat, it does not create cold.

[hadesfire]

Wikipedia also says,

"Cold refers to the condition or subjective perception of having low temperature. A cold body is often described as the opposite of hot, or as having less heat, although the latter use of "heat" would be incorrect in the context of physics, as heat refers to the transfer of energy between bodies, which do not "have" heat themselves."

That basically says that cold is lack of heat, saying it gets rid of heat is saying that it creates cold.

[Lae]

Wikipedia dictates CLOK lore? I wasn't aware...

[hadesfire]

If we aren't basing this debate on facts then it's pointless, different rules for the same game. I would like to making this as realistic as possible until an admin says otherwise.

[Nootau]

What we are debating are facts, the thing is.. Wikipedia facts on what a ray of anti-heat is, might not be the facts of Clok's. In Clok, cryomancy pushes heat away from itself, rather than not enough heat being in the area. If you want a different idea of it, think of a tank of water. That water is heat. What cryomancy does is make a air bubble within that water, which pushes the water out from the area altered. It does not add water or takes water out of the tank, it only moves it out of the way, nothing more.

[Acarin]

[quote=Nootau]What we are debating are facts, the thing is.. Wikipedia facts on what a ray of anti-heat is, might not be the facts of Clok's. In Clok, cryomancy pushes heat away from itself, rather than not enough heat being in the area. If you want a different idea of it, think of a tank of water. That water is heat. What cryomancy does is make a air bubble within that water, which pushes the water out from the area altered. It does not add water or takes water out of the tank, it only moves it out of the way, nothing more.[/quote]

I agree. Wikipedia cannot define cryomancy, but I think they defined what a flame is properly. My point is that a flame is no more physical than cryomancy orbs. They're basically same the same thing only one is cold and one is hot.

I don't really think it would be possible to "push" cold out. The heat has to be dispersed/removed for cryomancy but really? by pushing? When you make this analogy it's not consistent with my understanding of cryomancy nor is it consistent with physics.

Cryomancy creates an orb that causes heat to be transferred out of what it comes in contact with. I'm not entirely convinced it has to go into the environment as I wasn't last time this was discussed.

Much like a flame, the blue color of the orb must be due to an interaction of some sort with the environment (or you wouldn't see any color if light was not being produced). Flame in CLOK is really no different. Especially if you're saying it doesn't come from a fuel source and instead comes from your will.

Cryomancy is not conjuring. Rias has said that much. If you're saying you're not conjuring a fuel source for pyromancy, then you're saying that pyromancy is not conjuring either.

[Nootau]

In Clok, being 'consistent with physics' does not matter, especially not when magic is involved.

As for cryomancy's environmental effects, the heat that is moved by cryomancy is just that, moved. It is not removed or destroyed, simply moved, Rias has even stated as such.

Now for the color of Cryomancy, it is colored for theme sake. The blue color does not mean cold, as a flame is blue depending on what is being burned as the levels of soot near the flame.

Flames created by an Elemancer is fueled only by the Elemancer's will, nothing more nothing less. The flame itself is not a mundane flame and in such, does not follow mundane concepts of a flame, from such the color of the flame an Elemancer wields is rather moot but is red from the sake of common theme. A created flame gives off light, not because it burns something but because it is the concept of fire.. something that gives off light and heat(though if you are hit by pyromancy cast you take fire damage, not heat damage).

[Acarin]

[quote=Rias]Unfortunately, I tend to not be satisfied with "It's magic, let's leave it at that" explanations. I prefer to explain it as much as is possible [/quote]

I'm done. This isn't productive.

[hadesfire]

Can we get an admin to explain this before my head explodes? I still think that because Clok doesn't get rid of physics "for the sake of..." it follows atleast basic laws, fire needs fuel, ignition and oxygen, elemancers don't just go "gimme fire" they cause reaction and then maintain the flame through either constant recombustions (why it takes constant energy) or using their abilities to affect the natural world as a fuel source.

As with Cyromancy, the caster creates a concentrated area of no heat, or cold, according to every science article i've ever read, ever. the area of cyromancy maintains it's properties of moving heat from it's destination as it flies through the air. When it hits the target, it instantly (I say instantly because when you cast it, you don't have to create that area, it just happens) pushes the person body heat away, creating an area of extreme cold.

[Zoiya]

While this isn't a clear cut answer, it does give you an idea of how magic works on CLOK. If Rias decides he wants to go more in depth or add to this FAQ, that's on him. I would post questions that you might want to see answers to, but until he's back from leave this will probably have to do.


http://wiki.contrarium.net/index.php/Ma ... hysics_FAQ

[Isiaa]

As for the blue light I'd say it's not just thematic. When the heat is moved it would give of light yes? And say cryomancy causes high frequency light to be emitted which would be blue, unless there's something I'm missing.

[Lun]

Bump. I had the same idea today about cryomancy's cold damage being revisited today, and was going to post before I saw this old post.

So I'm not going to try to metaphysics any of this, I just think it'd be cool if cold damage either compounded a status effect similar to atmospheric cold/freezing in addition to dealing cold physical damage (localized frostbite when struck by orb of cold causes physical damage, blood circulating around body brings down body temp causing freezing)

Or just directly decreasing body temperature causing energy and atmospheric cold debuff.

Direct damage is a bit generic. Considering freezing aura deals energy based cold damage, I could see directly cast cryomancy dealing energy damage instead of boom physical ball of cold hitting you damage.

[Noctere]

From a purely balance and game perspective cryomancy does have a huge advantage in that it automatically casts a freezing aura around you without any extra energy cost or roundtime. It is also the most powerful melee 'proc'-ing spell in the game.

However, it is true that the raw damage of the spell is lower than many others. I do have an idea that I always wanted to try with cryomancy to give it some extra *wiz bang* but seeing as how sorcerers are a guild with more spells and abilities than everyone else... I don't think it would be fair to give them another without first looking at some of the other guilds who are in more dire need.